Works based salvation

[Prentis]

I know this is one of the most heated subjects, and one that evangelicals are adamant about.

Well, I have an issue with both a 'works based salvation' AND a 'free gift salvation'. I believe both are wrong. I know they are generally pinned against each other as being option A and B, and the only two possibilities. This consistutes a misunderstanding, I believe.

Christ says that 'unless you leave all behind and follow me, you cannot be my disciples'. Paul says it is not of works.This is the thing, we are not justified by works, but faith without works is dead. Out of love, we follow our Lord, and we are warned time and time again that the one who doesn't persevere will be cut off.

The error of works is to take works as a checklist, which the Pharisees did. Love your neighbor; check, did that! Thus the error is to think it's done. But it says 'You shall love the Lord your God', therefore it is never done, never 'checked' but must always be happening.

BUT it is equally wrong to say we must not do the commands. It says the robes of the saints are their righteous acts (Revelation 19:8).

Thus it is not by work, but by faith. And by faith Noah built the ark, and Abraham gave his son, and Rahab allowed the spies in, and David killed Goliath. By faith, we follow Christ. THIS faith saves us.

What say ye?

 

[THE Gypsy]

There is no such thing as "works based salvation". We are saved through faith, however, "works" is a byproduct. The problem I see within the body is that many believe in "faith based salvation", which is good, but then they want to sit on the sofa and watch the latest episode of Survivor and praise God their favorite didn't get voted off. All the while not acknowledging there will indeed come a time when they will be held accountable for their lack of works.

IOW...They use the reality of "faith based salvation" as an excuse to be lazy. God does not approve of that concept.

 

[rockytopva]

There is no such thing as "works based salvation". We are saved through faith, however, "works" is a byproduct. The problem I see within the body is that many believe in "faith based salvation", which is good, but then they want to sit on the sofa and watch the latest episode of Survivor and praise God their favorite didn't get voted off. All the while not acknowledging there will indeed come a time when they will be held accountable for their lack of works.

IOW...They use the reality of "faith based salvation" as an excuse to be lazy. God does not approve of that concept.

Its like the doctrine of Eternal Security! People develop doctrines like this as an excuse to be who they are.

 

[Prentis]

Exactly! Grace is not a license to sin, but the power in us to overcome and please God.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Its like the doctrine of Eternal Security! People develop doctrines like this as an excuse to be who they are.

Indeed. Nothing like picking and choosing which Scriptures to apply to your life.

Many simply want that "feel good" Gospel. My Bible doesn't promise that.

 

[gregg]

unless we produce spiritual works we are as a tree with no substance and hewed down. so let our lights shine

 

[Rach1370]

I know this is one of the most heated subjects, and one that evangelicals are adamant about.

Well, I have an issue with both a 'works based salvation' AND a 'free gift salvation'. I believe both are wrong. I know they are generally pinned against each other as being option A and B, and the only two possibilities. This consistutes a misunderstanding, I believe.

Christ says that 'unless you leave all behind and follow me, you cannot be my disciples'. Paul says it is not of works.This is the thing, we are not justified by works, but faith without works is dead. Out of love, we follow our Lord, and we are warned time and time again that the one who doesn't persevere will be cut off.

The error of works is to take works as a checklist, which the Pharisees did. Love your neighbor; check, did that! Thus the error is to think it's done. But it says 'You shall love the Lord your God', therefore it is never done, never 'checked' but must always be happening.

BUT it is equally wrong to say we must not do the commands. It says the robes of the saints are their righteous acts (Revelation 19:8).

Thus it is not by work, but by faith. And by faith Noah built the ark, and Abraham gave his son, and Rahab allowed the spies in, and David killed Goliath. By faith, we follow Christ. THIS faith saves us.

What say ye?

Hey Prentis! I would have to say, that for all our discussions on this topic, this is the one I understood best. And I say Amen to most of it, except perhaps this...

Well, I have an issue with both a 'works based salvation' AND a 'free gift salvation'. I believe both are wrong

Quite clearly 'free gift salvation' cannot be wrong, because the Bible labels it as that many times! I would say, however, that the misunderstanding that you are talking about here, is how people perceive their response to 'free gift salvation' should be. I think this is maybe the key issue we've been disagreeing on, and it's not actually something we disagree on at all!
We know that salvation is a 'free gift' because we are told that, and because we know we can trust God's faithfulness on this...but too often people take this, shut the book and say 'well, then, that's done'...and walk away to live a life that in fact makes a mockery of Jesus' gift and sacrifice. Like any child, we may know of God's love for us, but we also know we need to be obedient.
We cannot ignore how often the NT tells us how we should live. We are not to grab salvation and then live in a way that in fact hurts God's heart...or ourselves! I think too often people forget that so many of the things that we are told not to do, is just for our own benefit. God know what will bring us closer to Him (which brings us joy, and Him glory) and what will pull us away...which will just bring tragedy.
So yes Prentis, I agree that how we live is soooo very important...the Bible wouldn't have spent so much time giving us details if it wasn't! But as we're also told that salvation is a free gift, we have to marry these two concepts...which isn't hard to do!
When it all comes down to it, I just want love Jesus and live for Him. I know it's only His work and grace that means I can do both, and quite frankly, that just makes me want to live for Him even more! I suppose that's how it's supposed to work?

 

[Episkopos]

Free gift salvation ignores the command to be faithful. In what power are we to remain faithful in? Our own? Or His?

So the gift of God is not salvation (for all time) but the ability to be conformed to the will of God. Otherwise we are building on a dead foundation. We must remain in Christ to partake of Christ. Our continued walk to salvation must be maintained by a faithful walk in the provision of God. We WERE saved FROM what once blinded us. We are BEING saved through a continued faith and faithfulness in and through Christ. And IF we continue to allow His grace to win us...we SHALL partake of His salvation for all time.

 

[Prentis]

Yes!

Romans 5:2
through [Christ] also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


We stand by grace, the power of God in us, which is available by faith, and this with the hope of glory.

 

[Foreigner]

Works cannot save you. You cannot "earn" your salvation.

Christ's sacrifice alone paid the price for your salavation.

There are many people who will do great works of charitiy and live lives in service of others who will never see Heaven.

That will be because they never had a relationship with Jesus Christ.


-- Having said all that --


God DOES have expectations of us, and not fulfilling those expectations CAN impact our salvation.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ - Matt 25

 

[veteran]

Salvation is by Faith, but it will always include works as a by-product like Gypsy said, to show that it is real Faith. We cannot change this point, because this is why Christ gave the parable of the talents, which is about putting to work what Christ has given us. In the case with the servant that received one talent and buried it, by that he brought condemnation upon himself. Christ used the 'workman' and 'labourers in the field' symbols a lot to describe His servants doing work for Him.

Luke 9:62
62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

Our works can vary. Witnessing The Gospel to anyone who does not know Christ Jesus is a work, just as much as giving to the poor, or defending the widow and fatherless. Each one of us has some gift or duty which Christ will bless, or has blessed. It's just a matter of finding out what that is.

 

[Rach1370]

Works cannot save you. You cannot "earn" your salvation.

Christ's sacrifice alone paid the price for your salavation.

There are many people who will do great works of charitiy and live lives in service of others who will never see Heaven.

That will be because they never had a relationship with Jesus Christ.


-- Having said all that --


God DOES have expectations of us, and not fulfilling those expectations CAN impact our salvation.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ - Matt 25

Well said, as always!

 

[Episkopos]

Works based salvation is based on an ambition to be saved by something they have done. It is a checklist to be filled in. The modern notion of trusting Jesus for your assurance of salvation is also a works based salvation scheme. The checklist goes like....trusted Jesus for my eternal salvation....check!

But both schemes are based on an ambitious planning to save oneself. Biblically we walk By faith towards a hope of a future salvation. We are pleasing to God today so as to be accepted of Him. We certainly don't reverse the roles by accepting Him to do OUR bidding!

 

[Rach1370]

Works based salvation is based on an ambition to be saved by something they have done. It is a checklist to be filled in. The modern notion of trusting Jesus for your assurance of salvation is also a works based salvation scheme. The checklist goes like....trusted Jesus for my eternal salvation....check!

But both schemes are based on an ambitious planning to save oneself. Biblically we walk By faith towards a hope of a future salvation. We are pleasing to God today so as to be accepted of Him. We certainly don't reverse the roles by accepting Him to do OUR bidding!

So hey, I'm a little confused. So trusting Jesus, just as the bible tells us to, is works based...something to check off. But, if we are told to trust in, have belief of, have faith....what exactly do we have those things in? Belief that if we toe the line Jesus will save us one day? But that would fit in with your first scenario.
Doesn't the Bible teach something like this: we hear the good news, God opens our hearts to hear it! We believe in Christ and receive His free gift of grace and are saved. Our hearts are regenerated, we are born again, by the Holy Spirit coming to dwell inside us, a helper sent to guide us through this life with the sole purpose of helping us live a sanctifying life, which gives glory to God. Since we are saved, and since we have the Holy Spirit empowering us to live a good life full of works that God has already laid out for us in advance, it's not a case of 'working for salvation'...as in, your check list. We live the life God wants us to, which is laid out clearly in scripture, because He has saved us, because we have His Spirit helping us...not to get something or achieve it. This is why living a life of good fruit gives glory to God and Him alone...because it is only by His grace and majesty that we can do so!

 

[Prentis]

It is if we think that trusting once and all that makes it a done deal... Check!

We love God becomes while we were still dead in our trespasses, he came to rescue us, yes. But that doesn't imply eternal justification in any sense. We are called upon to be fruitful, receiving the seed does not bring salvation, but bringing it to fruitfulness does.

Anything that man uses to justify himself is works based. I've done this... Check! We have to come before the judgment seat of Christ, and each will be rewarded according to his works.

 

[Rach1370]

It is if we think that trusting once and all that makes it a done deal... Check!

We love God becomes while we were still dead in our trespasses, he came to rescue us, yes. But that doesn't imply eternal justification in any sense. We are called upon to be fruitful, receiving the seed does not bring salvation, but bringing it to fruitfulness does.

Anything that man uses to justify himself is works based. I've done this... Check! We have to come before the judgment seat of Christ, and each will be rewarded according to his works.

Wow, this again. I'm pretty sure I won't get through to you...if I was going to I think the last 10 times would have done the trick! But to clarify....
"trusting once and all that makes it a done deal..."....just because I believe salvation is assured to us under Christ's promise, doesn't mean I think we don't have to lead a life full of repentance. Repentance and growth is a daily thing, even once we have salvation.
And I can't help but feel I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I know salvation is assured to me not because I accepted Christ. It's not because I can say "I said the prayer, now I'm saved...check". I know salvation is assured the same way I know that I am indeed saved, and a child of God. Because of Jesus. He called me to Him, He offered me grace, a free gift, He sent me the Holy Spirit to help me live a sanctifying life. It's all Him. And because it's all Him, and because He promises "eternal life" in Him, I know it to be true. I know it's true and I know it's only because of Him that I will have a chance to live the sort of life that He wants me to.
Really, I think you need to maybe take a step back, and do a search...how many times we are told that what we receive in Christ is "eternal" or "everlasting". Maybe do a search on "assurance". And most certainly look into the concept of "free gift". Because we are told again and again that what Jesus gives us is a "free gift". What kind of free gift comes with strings attached? Remember the passage that says "if earthly parents give good things to their children, how much more will our heavenly Father give to those He loves"? We are also told again and again that nothing, absolutely nothing we can do will ever manage to measure up to the price of salvation. And yet you would have me believe that we can, in fact, have a say in our own salvation. That by 'living right' we can add something to what Jesus has done. That Jesus only gave us that push off along the path, but we have to keep going to get the prize. Isn't that very much a 'check' scenario? We cannot do anything to help in our own salvation. To think so goes against everything scripture tells us.
I think that perhaps you are getting justification and sanctification mixed up. Justification is something that puts us right with God. That can only be done by Jesus. In fact if we could do it in any way, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come and die. So, the moment we have faith in Christ, we are saved and put right with God...this free gift only takes a 'second'...a moment where our lives are changed forever, we are given a new heart and new desires. But sanctification takes a life time. This is what the bible it talking about when it speaks of good works, producing good fruit, walking with Christ, supporting our fellow Christians, and always, repenting and moving closer to Christ. Sanctification is a very necessary part of our life, don't mistake me in that, but it is something we can only do if we have salvation, if we have God within us helping us.
Really, I can't quite understand how you can say that I'm 'checking' things off when all I'm doing is trusting in Jesus...which is something we are supposed to do, and yet you're saying that you can obtain your salvation by living right, "'cause Jesus gave you the tools to do it". That's you...you're talking about you doing it!

 

[aspen]

I love God and neighbor because God loves me. It is a relationship with Christ that saves us. All relationships require the participation of everyone involved. Christ condemned works that promoted self love, not works that promoted love of God and neighbor. If God can use humans to write down His word - He can also use us to participate in the redemption of our hearts. I have never understood the venomous anger of some Christians, which involves the constant denigration of God's crowning creation, humanity.....is God really that insecure that He must compete with anyone or anything for our worship and adoration?!? Com'mon! God is not some borderline nut-job that is going to boil the family rabbit (2 points for fatal attraction reference) if we avoid Him. He loves us and WANTS to be in relationship with us, but doesn't NEED our attention. Our sin has damaged OUR ability to relate to Him - not His ability to relate to us!