Works V. Faith

[jiggyfly]

If you are the car that don't run then you will either receive repair or be sent to the Junk Yard.

How many times have you seen a car go to the junk yard with only one repair needed?

 

[Sabitarian]

The problem is with law and which of the laws is being spoken of in your scriptures. There is Ceremonial Law, Moral Law and Sacrificial Law and it is necessary to understand which of these is being discussed in your scripture. Most of the time it is the Sacrificial Law that is spoken of and it is easy to see if you have your eyes open and your mind open also. None of these Laws have been done away with under any of the different covenants. They are all in effect still and the only one that has been fulfilled for us is the Sacrificial Law, which was fulfilled by Christ on the Cross and completed by the tearing of the veil. Now, if all of the laws were hung on the cross as some say, then there is no law for any to obey. If all laws are gone then circumcision of the heart is not necessary and the demons are to be part of the family of God, but we know that this is not true, so what is the defining character that allows any to be given Grace? Faith in Christ and His Father, but does that faith require anything else to define it? If Faith alone is the thing that we are given Grace for, then again the demons would be allowed into the family of God, as they know proof positive who Father and Son are. Again we understand this is not so, as the demons are held for destruction. There has to be a defining characteristic that separates demons from those destined for Grace and it needs to be something that we are capable of doing. Again we return to the Laws of God, as they are the defining characteristic that will make us eligible for grace as the demons have nothing to do with the Laws of God. We understand that we are not required to do sacrifices as that part of the law has been fulfilled, but what about the rest of the law? The Moral Law has not been fulfilled, so we should keep that if we desire to be eligible for grace and keeping it does not automatically give us Grace, as if we do not keep it with a willingness to please God by doing so, then it is in vain for us to keep it. If keeping it is trying to earn Grace, we are wasting our time. So what about the Ceremonial Law, is it done away with or fulfilled? Not on your life, it is still in effect and is part of good works that we do to please God. What about Christmas, is it part of God’s Law? NO! It is part of pagan doctrine brought into Christianity by the Papacy in order to separate us for the laws of God, thus allowing them to be in the place of God. This is their claim of authority to rule in the room of God. Christmas is the winter solstice and goes by many other pagan names as well. It is not even close to the time of Christ’s birth as it was in the fall of the year not mid winter. Is there any where Christmas is related in scripture? NO! Has it any religious significance? Not to Believers. Believers are those people who do their best to do the works that are given us to show our love of God.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[jiggyfly]

Actually it is speaking of the old contract with Israel which happens to contain the ten commandments on stone and the rest of the law articulated through Moses.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,

One question: What works are required for salvation, and where in the scriptures do you find it? Okay, that's one question in two parts :0

The only works I know of are mentioned in John 6:29

Hi Rand,

I supplied the parable of the talents in the previous post. Each was given a different amount by his Master and when the Master returned he expected that the servant would have gained a profit. The first two were both comended, the last who did nothing with what was given to him was cast out into out darkness which is the phrase Jesus uses for the lake of fire. It is clear from this passage that the works were the difference between those who were rewarded in the kingdom and the one who was cast out. Jesus compares this parable to the kingdom of God.

As far as what works, the end of Mathew 25 is a start. In that parable, the sheep are separated from the goats, the sheep go to eternal life and the goats to damnation and it's determined by what they did. What's interesting is that in both of those parables Jesus says nothing about what one believes.

There is Mathew 5-7 also where Jesus gives a good bit of His teaching.

Likewise in Romans 2 Paul says that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. If works played no role in salvation then all the good works in the world wouldn't be seeking eternal life.

The Scriptures are full of Statements about works that we must do, the problem is that since the Reformation Christians have been fed the teachings of Martin Luther rather than the teachings of Scripture. Many times we hear Christians say, we're not under Law but grace. We are not under the Mosaic Law, however, we are under law.

[sup]2[/sup] Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. (Gal 6:2 KJV)

God said of the New Covenant that He would make with Israel,

[sup]16[/sup] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (Heb 10:16 KJV)

The laws are those things we must do. Jesus lays many of these out in Mat 5-7.

Abraham believed God so he acted like he believed God by doing what God told him to do. But, Abraham was found righteous by his faith not by his works. His faith caused him to have works. Faith will do that. No matter what you believe, you will act out (for the most part) the way you believe. If you believe you are taking a huge risk of life getting on an airplane, then you will act like you are affraid of flying, esp. when you get on an airplane, or by the fact that you refuse to get on an airplane. And that goes for anything you have faith in, or anything you believe--whether it's true or not, if you believe it you will act like it (for the most part). You will have works that support your faith no matter what that faith is in. That's all these scriptures are talking about.
If you try to tell people you are the best diver in the world, but are affraid of driving, then that faith is dead.

Abraham was also justified by his works.

[sup]21[/sup] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[sup]22[/sup] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[sup]23[/sup] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (Jam 2:21-23 KJV)




Notice James says that it is works that make faith complete. He said Abraham’s faith worked with his works and completed his faith.

 

[Sabitarian]

jiggyfly,
The contract with israel is slightly different from the one with Christians in that the circumcision is of the heart instead of the flesh and even women are included in it, as they were never to be circumcised under the old covanent. Christians do not need animal sacrifices as their sacrifical Lamb is Christ, once for all. There is no change in the Moral Law, however the Ceremonial Law had sacrifices in it from the time that God made skins for Adam's sin. An animal had to be killed to cover both the sins of Adam and Eve. There is no disproof for any of this in the Word of God, and the only way for you to try is to not take scripture in context of the other scriptures. humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[IAmAWitness]

Basic addition and subtraction does not do the argument justice. It is not +works that saves us. +Faith we can say in a sense does save but +Faith - works does not result in a product of salvation. The formula should be (+faith + works), where +faith is the initial conversion experience (the time from which one becomes saved) and the +works should be viewed as that person carrying on in their salvation and not falling prey to the snares spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6. Yes, you are saved at +faith but then if that is followed by a -works then your faith will not save you.

 

[Sabitarian]

Just to get us on target again, your faith can not save you and your works will not save you eithor as all of our works have no saving Grace in them. Salvation comes from the Lord and is given by Him as a reward for doing His will and keeping His Commandments. Your Faith is the reason for your works and without both of them working in concert neithor of them has any usefulness.
What are His Commandments that He will reward you for keeping, you ask? First day worship is not one of His commandments as there is no place in scripture where He deviated from the Sabbaths given in Exodus. Christmas is not one of them as there is no place in scripture where He commanded you to keep a holiday, but you are commanded to keep His Holy Days and by the way He was not born in December. Easter is not one of His commandments, but is a pagan substitute for Passover, which is Commanded by Him. Making God a trinity is not part of His Cammandments, eithor as His words prove this to be true, in Genesis 1:2 the Spirit of God, in this case the Spirit of the Creator Yeshshua or Jesus is said to move over the face of the waters. Not the holy ghost, but the Spirit of God and in John Christ tells us in 14:10 He tells us He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, plus the words are of the Father as well as the works done by Him. The Father is Spirit. In 14:16 Christ will pray to the Father to send a Comforter and in 14:18 He tells us He will not leave us comfortless, but will come to us. So who is the Comforter, in this scripture? It can be no less than the Ceator of the world, Christs Spirit. How much clearer can it be to us, that the Holy Spirit is not a separate entity, but Christ Himself, in fact. humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[Axehead]

If you believe something you will act upon it. If you don't act upon what you believe then you really don't believe it, do you? That's called Unbelief.

So, faith without works is dead. But faith with works is a living, believing, genuine faith.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

If you don't act upon what you believe then you really don't believe it, do you? That's called Unbelief.

Hmm.


Isn't the point - when referring to unbelief - that God has made Himself known through creation, and therefore, the 'act' of not acknowledging Him, is called 'unbelief'?


Those who do not acknowledge Him, are, in fact, acting on their beliefs, though those beliefs be mistaken (in the eternal perspective).

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

Hmm.

Isn't the point - when referring to unbelief - that God has made Himself known through creation, and therefore, the 'act' of not acknowledging Him, is called 'unbelief'?

Those who do not acknowledge Him, are, in fact, acting on their beliefs, though those beliefs be mistaken (in the eternal perspective).

So very true, dragonfly.

I should have said, "If you don't act upon what you say you believe, it is unbelief".

Jas_1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Mar_7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Mat_15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.


Mar 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
He was not acknowledged as the Son of God but a mere human with a mother, brothers and sisters.

Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Mar 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
Mar 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[neophyte]

St. Paul, in Rom.3:28, was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, ie., circumcision as in Rom. 2: 30-31, When Catholics refer to works they mean works of charity and love.
You can also refer to Eph. 2:10, 1 Tim.6: 18, Titus 2:7, Jas. 2: 14-26, REv. 2:5, 2:23, 2:26, 20: 12, where works are identified as key to our salvation.

 

[Sabitarian]

.
neophyte,
In order to understand Romans 3:28 you need to put it in context by reading Romans 19-31 to decide which of the laws are being spoken of as all three are translated law in English, but in the original language they are spelled differently and have different punctuation, as in to,too and two, none of the to's is the same, yet all are spoken the same. So, the old Jewish Law is the Sacrifical. In 19 it tells us that all are made guilty of sin by the Sacrifical Law. In 20 it tells that the Sacrifical Law can not justify you in the sight of God, as animal sacrifice are not able to take away sin, only the one perfect Sacrifice will do that. If you read 21-16 in context this Sacrifice is explained to you and the meaning of that one Sacrifice. In 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay; but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Which law are we speaking about now? The same law, the Sacrifical law. 29-31 tells us that God puts no difference between Jew and Gentile and through the blood of Christ all are justified by faith, which causes us to do good works and establishes the Sacrifice made by Christ.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[Episkopos]

Works V. Faith is the title of this post and an interesting one it is.
James 2:18-20
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
KJV
Ex 20:12-17
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
KJV
I have been told that by keeping the laws of God I will not be granted salvation by some of the brethren here and I have this to say about that. You need to keep in mind the scriptures of James above, but also the last six of the Ten. If you keep even the last six of these Commandments, that is doing works as it takes work to love a stranger in need. At times it takes work to honor your father and mother, as my father was always thinking of his benefit over mine and I need to tell you it took work on my part when he told me I walked like a duck and that I did not have the brains of a pisant. It would have been easy to show defiance as my brother did, yet I did not. It takes work to make a living and not steal, the easy way to get what you want. Until you understand it takes a lot of work to love the Father, when He does things that are beyond your comprehension at the time. I have heard many time “why has God done this” and found it fascinating that people actually blame God for man made doings. God did not make the Trade Towers fall, it was man who did that. God did allow it to happen, but with good reason, as Protestants have chosen paganistic practices in the name of God, just as Israel did in times past. Israel kept on doing sacrifices to God in the Temple, while doing sacrifices to pagan god’s also. In order for you to keep Sunday as the day of worship, you need to show where in scripture you are specifically told to do so. God does not do anything on a whim nor half heartedly, so He tells you the same thing over and over again, hoping that you will understand and comply with His wishes. None of the scriptures that are used to support Sunday worship will stand the test of who, what and why. If your scripture will not stand this test, then it does not say what you want it to say. It needs to tell who it is that is making the claim on you. It needs to tell why he has the right to do so. And it needs to tell you what it is that you are being told to do. It is as simple as that! There are two places in scripture that fulfill this test and only two and they are in the Old Testament and there are none in the New. I have repeatedly told you that the first day is only mentioned 8 times in the New Testament and none of them answer to the test. So, you need to look out side of these 8 times that it is mentioned to find any place where all of the test questions will be answered, yet none exist. That is why the $1,000,000.00 dollar reward has ever been paid. This test has been in use since the time that there were slaves and slave masters, in other words for thousand’s of years. If a slave ran away and was found by other than his master, the master had to prove that the slave belonged to him, by answering the three questions.
In the end it takes work to follow the Ten Commandments and Faith is just the beginning of the works. The fallen angels know for sure that He is God and the Sabbath is still the day of worship, but you need to take it on Faith, yet Faith alone is not the only thing needed to show your love for God, as the fallen angels have more faith than you will ever have as they know for sure He is God and the Sabbath is still the day Sanctified and Hallowed by God as the day of worship. The only thing that can separate you from them is work’s that show that you are actually a follower of Christ.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

Walking by the works of the law is the antithesis of walking in a new life by faith. One is of the flesh and the other is of the Spirit.

 

[neophyte]

We Can Work It Out
is justified by works and not by faith alone." Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are "justified by faith alone"—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians ... such as Romans 3:28: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law." Romans 4:5 ...

 

[Sabitarian]

Episkopos,
I doubt that anything said will allow you to see the Light and explaining scripture to some one who is positive they know all, is a waste of my time and energy, so excuse me if I do not try.
neophyte,
I explained that scripture and as long as it is taken in context of the rest of scripture and the actual law spoken of is identified, you can not go wrong
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[neophyte]

Episkopos,
I doubt that anything said will allow you to see the Light and explaining scripture to some one who is positive they know all, is a waste of my time and energy, so excuse me if I do not try.
neophyte,
I explained that scripture and as long as it is taken in context of the rest of scripture and the actual law spoken of is identified, you can not go wrong
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

I'm sorry but you haven't a clue, unless you have been taught not only proper context but also the various literary forms which appear in Holy Scripture ie,. allegory, letter, and apocalypse. Each genre must be clearly defined by the reader to correctly understand the one and only "one true interpretation', not the thousands of different false interpretations of Scripture as is witnessed by Protestants since the reformation.

 

[Sabitarian]

neophyte,
You are totally correct that figures of speech matter, however the use of concordance and interlinary are also needed as English translations are done by people who have a specific doctrine they want to support and I have shown where language differences make all of the difference to the subject matter, as in the Holy Spirit being called the Holy Ghost, when the pronoun is masculin neutered rendering it an it, that and such. Therefore it can not be a distinct separate entity, but the Spirit of the Father and Son. Context takes in the different forms, as alagory, analogy, simile and such. I do understand the diferent forms of speech for your information I learned them a long time ago.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High