Your last post is a good post aspen2 
The only proviso is Christians love people as Christ loved, to love as people love is not loving God.
The only proviso is Christians love people as Christ loved, to love as people love is not loving God.
World is falling apart.
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The gospel according to the progressive socialist who sees everything in terms of class/race warfare where one man's wealth condemns his while nother man's poverty saves him....the first is judged to be sinful because of his wealth while the second is judged to be rightous because of his poverty....no such gospel exist in the Bible,no where does it say that sin is the exclusive domain of the rich and rightousness dwells exclusively among the poor...both poverty and wealth are relative terms,sin however is not relative.The poor man who lies,cheats and bears false witness is no more innocent than the rich man who does the same....your religion is materialism where what one has or does not have is the deciding and defining factor....it is false.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Your last post is a good post aspen2
The only proviso is Christians love people as Christ loved, to love as people love is not loving God.
Thank you. I agree with your correction.
Your flattery will not win you any points Strat.
Not sure where you are getting your ideas from, but they certainly are imaginative!
I can safely say that I am not a materialist. I believe material things are only a small part of reality. Furthermore, I do not care about money, unless it is used to magnify sins that hurt others.
Admit it Strat, I could make the statement 'the sun rises in the East and sets in the West' and you would respond by claiming that I am trying to lead people to Hell under the banner of Communism! LOL
All you ever talk about are the haves vs the have nots and this race vs that race,this class vs that...rarely about the sin that plagues them both equally...i get my "ideas" from what you write about...Jesus died on the cross to save people from their sins,not to seperate them into socioeconomic classes with greater and lesser sins and different tax rates and minority status.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I have written over 4,000 posts on this board as Aspen and Aspen2. The majority of them are about clarifying Catholic doctrine, ecumenicism, and love. I also enjoy talking about the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall. Very few have to do with racial equality - I think I have written about the inequality of human justice in regards to the death penalty. As far as wealth and poverty - the topic usually comes up in the political forum - the vast majority of my posts are found in the General discussion forum.
Jesus spent a great deal of time preaching about taking care of people on Earth - He was not simply manning a lifeboat for Christians. He cares about the day to day condition of all people.
Again provide scriptural support that Jesus took a general welfare position in regard to the general population regardless of spiritual condition,also,if you can,provide scriptural support that Jesus put physical well being above spiritual well being.....that should be a fun one for you.The inequality of human justice in regard to the death penalty is that some who murder pay for it with their lives as they should and some don't....usually non whites with guilt ridden white lawywers,jurys and judges....anyone who commits an act of murder should die plain and simple....anyone of any race or social standing.....the injustice occurs when one's life is taken and the taker gets to go on with theirs.
aspen2,
But how do you see Jesus telling the Pharisees that they are sons of hell and like whitewashed tombs. He still died for them, but most today dont see such telling people the truth as love.
Well actually to be accurate God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. ... its past tense. Jesus said it is finished and done. God loves everyone because He has made the way to salvation for all.
But how do you see Jesus telling the Pharisees that they are sons of hell and like whitewashed tombs. He still died for them, but most today dont see such telling people the truth as love.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
John was talking about why Jesus came to Earth - because He loved the World - it is past tense because it is speaking of a past event - it does not mean that Jesus doesn't love the world, today.
Aspen2,
We are not saying much of what you have assumed.
I am not aware that anyone has specifically said God has made
Sure His Kingdom has come to more and more since Pentecost and He is working even now. So yes the Holy Spirit does affect the world, but only where His Kingdom comes.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."
When Moses lifted up the snake it was because the people were disobeying God and by looking on the snake those who were bitten were saved.
John 3:16 says "just as" The world is in disobedience, there is sin and death, only those who look to Christ are saved.
The world is falling apart and God's Kingdom is advancing.
We are not saying much of what you have assumed.
I am not aware that anyone has specifically said God has made
The world is in the grip of the evil one. The world is not the Kingdom. The world is degenerating, sin leads to death.
You mean it makes God look weak to you, it makes God look strong to me as His word says the world is degenerating, sin leads to death remember.
Sure His Kingdom has come to more and more since Pentecost and He is working even now. So yes the Holy Spirit does affect the world, but only where His Kingdom comes.
Nonsense, abortion is huge, murder rates are high and that’s just in the west, thousands die of starvation and lack in the world and thousands of Christians are persecuted.
Well it is possible John wrote 3:16 rather than Jesus saying this, but not so with John 3:15.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."
When Moses lifted up the snake it was because the people were disobeying God and by looking on the snake those who were bitten were saved.
John 3:16 says "just as" The world is in disobedience, there is sin and death, only those who look to Christ are saved.
The world is falling apart and God's Kingdom is advancing.
WhiteKnuckle
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I don't believe the sins of the world are worse today than anyother time in history. What makes it seem worse is it's advertised and in the open. So, the potential for it to become the norm will lead to the actual worse scenario. Renewing of our minds works in both directions. We can be sensitized or desensitized to which every we expose our brains to the most.
I still wonder though, which is worse? Is it worse to sin in secret or in the open and not lie about it? Is it worse to pretend to be a follower of Christ and sin in secret or deny God altogether?
Now that I think about it, looking back in history, atleast throughout my life, things haven't changed much since I was a child. Then again, I never did get to have the child like view of the world as a great and peaceful place with good times and noodle salad. I got to see the soft white underbelly of civilization. It's not pretty.
The biggest difference can be seen in music, the subtle inuendo of lyrics aren't there, it's direct.
I still wonder though, which is worse? Is it worse to sin in secret or in the open and not lie about it? Is it worse to pretend to be a follower of Christ and sin in secret or deny God altogether?
Now that I think about it, looking back in history, atleast throughout my life, things haven't changed much since I was a child. Then again, I never did get to have the child like view of the world as a great and peaceful place with good times and noodle salad. I got to see the soft white underbelly of civilization. It's not pretty.
The biggest difference can be seen in music, the subtle inuendo of lyrics aren't there, it's direct.
As a child I got to see the difference in the deliberate attack on morality in American soceity.
I remember about ten years ago seeing several copies of Reader's Digest at a hospital lounge. There were copies going back to the 1970's and newer editions in the late 1990's. Just reading the differences between the subject titles between the two eras was an eye opener.
So if one wants to really... know how things have changed, you can go to the library and do a little research using newspapers, periodicals, works like Reader's Digest. Certain events will be seen as repeating throughout history, but the one change that stands out is what the next generation's state of morality is, what the majority of people accept as the norm. Because of how society is slowly conditioned to accept ideas and practices that a previous generation would not, that difference stands out.
I remember about ten years ago seeing several copies of Reader's Digest at a hospital lounge. There were copies going back to the 1970's and newer editions in the late 1990's. Just reading the differences between the subject titles between the two eras was an eye opener.
So if one wants to really... know how things have changed, you can go to the library and do a little research using newspapers, periodicals, works like Reader's Digest. Certain events will be seen as repeating throughout history, but the one change that stands out is what the next generation's state of morality is, what the majority of people accept as the norm. Because of how society is slowly conditioned to accept ideas and practices that a previous generation would not, that difference stands out.
Anyone who is comfortable in the world is a friend of the world.....the bible speaks about that.
Yes.. I swear he woke up the other day! JESUS THE LORD HAS RISEN!!!! CHRIST CHURCH IN NEWZEALAND CRUMBLED FROM A MASSIVE EARTH QUAKE.... PROOF?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Funny how Jesus never moaned or complained about the morality of the world He lived in - He just told His disciples to go forth and care for the sinners they met. Why, it is so important for fundy, literalists to go on and on about how rotten the sinners are around them and how the arrogant bleedinghearted liberals are trying to serve the sinners when they should be filled with anger and contempt for everyone who doesn't follow the fundamentalist's interpretation of God's Word?
How twisted! Now there is a great argument for the cleverness of the Devil! Turn those most fervent for God into self-righteous, contemptuous, fear-mongers.
How twisted! Now there is a great argument for the cleverness of the Devil! Turn those most fervent for God into self-righteous, contemptuous, fear-mongers.
Aspen2
He criticised it frequently ie.
Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! Matthew 18
Ugh?
He criticised it frequently ie.
Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! Matthew 18
He didn’t even do that in all cases, at one time He sent the disciples out and told them to wipe the dust off their feet and leave where they were not welcomed.
They don’t usually, they respond to liberals defending sin, and they should more often because Jesus teaching includes repentance from sin.
Because most of the time "the fundamentalist's interpretation of God's Word" is not interpretation at all, but actually faith and the truth working in love, and the liberal doesn’t like, presumably because they are challenged by the truth.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Ugh?
He criticised it frequently ie.
Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! Matthew 18
Where is the moaning and complaining? Jesus was expressing empathy for the lost. Far cry from the 'world is going to Hell because everyone is worthless' conversations I read all over the internet from a minority of Christians.
He didn’t even do that in all cases, at one time He sent the disciples out and told them to wipe the dust off their feet and leave where they were not welcomed.
On the contrary, Jesus sent His disciples out to love others through service and the spreading of the gospel - the verse you are alluding to is instruction on how to avoid useless arguments or violence - don't argue, just move on.
They don’t usually, they respond to liberals defending sin, and they should more often because Jesus teaching includes repentance from sin.
The problem is
1. Anyone who holds a slightly more merciful view of a sinner is considered a liberal.
2. Any mercy towards a sinner is considered an endorsement of their sin.
3. We are all sinners, but fundies are focused on everyone else's sins and not their own.
4. God allows sin to exist in the world among nonbelievers for a time.
5. We are not called to be the moral police of nonbelievers.
6. Love and repentance are not mutually exclusive behaviors - in fact, love IS repentance. Turning away from self-love and turning back towards God - loving God and neighbor.
Because most of the time "the fundamentalist's interpretation of God's Word" is not interpretation at all, but actually faith and the truth working in love, and the liberal doesn’t like, presumably because they are challenged by the truth.
Actually, most of the time fundies get so caught up in being right about the Bible and imposing their interpretation onto other Christians and the lost, they fail to see the forest for the trees. Just like the Tinman, they are all head and no heart. Generally, they are more concerned about the literal meaning than the over all theme of the Bible, which is loving God and neighbor. If you refuse to see the scriptures through the lens of love, you are going to miss the whole point of it.
He criticised it frequently ie.
Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! Matthew 18
Where is the moaning and complaining? Jesus was expressing empathy for the lost. Far cry from the 'world is going to Hell because everyone is worthless' conversations I read all over the internet from a minority of Christians.
He didn’t even do that in all cases, at one time He sent the disciples out and told them to wipe the dust off their feet and leave where they were not welcomed.
On the contrary, Jesus sent His disciples out to love others through service and the spreading of the gospel - the verse you are alluding to is instruction on how to avoid useless arguments or violence - don't argue, just move on.
They don’t usually, they respond to liberals defending sin, and they should more often because Jesus teaching includes repentance from sin.
The problem is
1. Anyone who holds a slightly more merciful view of a sinner is considered a liberal.
2. Any mercy towards a sinner is considered an endorsement of their sin.
3. We are all sinners, but fundies are focused on everyone else's sins and not their own.
4. God allows sin to exist in the world among nonbelievers for a time.
5. We are not called to be the moral police of nonbelievers.
6. Love and repentance are not mutually exclusive behaviors - in fact, love IS repentance. Turning away from self-love and turning back towards God - loving God and neighbor.
Because most of the time "the fundamentalist's interpretation of God's Word" is not interpretation at all, but actually faith and the truth working in love, and the liberal doesn’t like, presumably because they are challenged by the truth.
Actually, most of the time fundies get so caught up in being right about the Bible and imposing their interpretation onto other Christians and the lost, they fail to see the forest for the trees. Just like the Tinman, they are all head and no heart. Generally, they are more concerned about the literal meaning than the over all theme of the Bible, which is loving God and neighbor. If you refuse to see the scriptures through the lens of love, you are going to miss the whole point of it.
Merciful veiw of sinners...Jesus died on the cross to save them...you are a disgrace for even suggesting that you are capable of anything greater...nothing else is needed
Any mercy towards a sinner is considered and endorsementn of their sin ? you endorse sin when you excuse it,make it easy and finance it...that about has you covered..
We are all sinners yes,your use of the word "fundies" shows what a reprobate you are,Christianity has fundemental core values and beleifs...i do not focus anyone else's sins but my own..it is you who wants to focus on an finance everybody else's sins.
We are not called on to be the moral police of non beleivers ? true,we are also not called upon to spare them the circusmstances of the chosen morals,we are not called on to finance their sins and pave their road to Hell with gold.
Love and repentance are not the same...but if figures you would think so...in it's obession with practising sin the reprobate mind makes whatever connections are needed.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
squeak, squeak, squeak.....
You have lost all traces of credibility, Strat.......all you do is hate and report people when they speak the truth about you.
Keep name calling from the shadows.....
Aspen2,
Matthew 18. "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble!
I don’t think so.
You see part of the love of God is to rescue people from sin, thus Christ addressed it as well. As well. Most of the discussions on Christian forums are not because Christians want to emphasize hell/condemnation etc. at all, but because some want an idea of love from a jesus who never mentioned it.
Well I think that saying woe to the world is complaining about the world. Give me an example of complaining.
Matthew 18. "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble!
I don’t think so.
You see part of the love of God is to rescue people from sin, thus Christ addressed it as well. As well. Most of the discussions on Christian forums are not because Christians want to emphasize hell/condemnation etc. at all, but because some want an idea of love from a jesus who never mentioned it.
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Choir Loft
All of us are experiencing the Great Apostacy predicted centuries ago in Holy Writ. This is my interpretation of what's going on, submitted for your consideration..........
In the year 1948 on the fourteeth day of May, the British mandate for Palestine was replaced by the State of Israel.
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Arab states invaded the next day.[/background]
In the years since 1948, it has often been suggested that this singular event was the fulfillment of the dry bones prophecy of Exekiel 37.
The Jewish race, once dead and scattered, were gathered together in the ancient place of their original homeland. They were the dry bones, dead but not alive.
To this skeleton of humanity a living society and nation was attached and given life. Today Israel lives, whether other nations and people wish it or not.
The dry bones became alive and walked among men.
At about the same time a general ossification began to work its way into the church. Despite the known necessity to reform, despite a massive national American revival twenty years after Israel's birth, the rigidity and waning of the church grew faster and more pervasive.
At its core is the definition and the person of Jesus Christ.
Today protestantism as we once knew it no longer exists. It has forgotten Jesus, who He was and what He is as well as the anticipation of His imminent return.
What remains is in a condition of self-destruction. Its empty philosophy and ingrown social skills can not address secular hedonism nor the dangers of fascism gone wild. Far from saving the world, protestantism can no longer save itself. The glory of Roman Catholicism is a thing of the past. Accoding to every statistical analysis the church is dwindling at an unimaginable pace; globally.
The church is under attack from all sides.
That which was alive no longer walks among men.
To date, Israel has survived all invasions and attacks.
To date, the church is defeated at every turn and in all directions. The Great Apostacy is under way.
Do you see the contradiction, the events existing in indirect proportion to one another - exactly as prophecied in the pages of Holy Scripture?
Israel rises and the church declines. It's exactly like the fortunes of John the baptiser and Jesus the Christ.
Quite soon Jesus will return from the kingdom of the clouds to save - ISRAEL.
He does not come for the church. It will already be gone, for that is the indication clearly stated by the prophecy of the great global apostasy. Some believe that the church will have been evacuated in some sort of mysterious cosmic disappearing act. What actually seems to be happening is death and corruption. Today the church is dead. There is still flesh on the bones, but it is no longer able to react to its environment. Sounds like death to me!
The church is indeed disappearing. Not in miraculous fashion as in the dreams of writers of religious fiction, but as a process of inglorious decay and rot. Jesus does not come for the church. He comes for Israel.
No pretended prophet is capable of such a thing. No half dead legend can do so.
Only a man reborn from the grave with the powers of life and death in His hand can do that.
In all the sad long tale of the history of man only one such person has ever been able to do the things that Jesus did or can hold our hopes for the future as He does.
Only a god can do that.
It has been truly said that the ossification of the church began with the removal of Christ as One who has earned our respect and who is deserving of our worship, from the very position of God. Once done, the hollow shell that once was the glorious church on earth will be easily crushed by the enemies of God; the world.
With Jesus' return, however, all discussions and debates about Him will be reduced to a few dusty footnotes in the sad history of mankind. They will be there if anyone will care to read them, but with Our Lord back on earth seated upon His rightful throne in history, I doubt few will bother to look.
but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
In the year 1948 on the fourteeth day of May, the British mandate for Palestine was replaced by the State of Israel.
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Arab states invaded the next day.[/background]
In the years since 1948, it has often been suggested that this singular event was the fulfillment of the dry bones prophecy of Exekiel 37.
The Jewish race, once dead and scattered, were gathered together in the ancient place of their original homeland. They were the dry bones, dead but not alive.
To this skeleton of humanity a living society and nation was attached and given life. Today Israel lives, whether other nations and people wish it or not.
The dry bones became alive and walked among men.
At about the same time a general ossification began to work its way into the church. Despite the known necessity to reform, despite a massive national American revival twenty years after Israel's birth, the rigidity and waning of the church grew faster and more pervasive.
At its core is the definition and the person of Jesus Christ.
Today protestantism as we once knew it no longer exists. It has forgotten Jesus, who He was and what He is as well as the anticipation of His imminent return.
What remains is in a condition of self-destruction. Its empty philosophy and ingrown social skills can not address secular hedonism nor the dangers of fascism gone wild. Far from saving the world, protestantism can no longer save itself. The glory of Roman Catholicism is a thing of the past. Accoding to every statistical analysis the church is dwindling at an unimaginable pace; globally.
The church is under attack from all sides.
That which was alive no longer walks among men.
To date, Israel has survived all invasions and attacks.
To date, the church is defeated at every turn and in all directions. The Great Apostacy is under way.
Do you see the contradiction, the events existing in indirect proportion to one another - exactly as prophecied in the pages of Holy Scripture?
Israel rises and the church declines. It's exactly like the fortunes of John the baptiser and Jesus the Christ.
Quite soon Jesus will return from the kingdom of the clouds to save - ISRAEL.
He does not come for the church. It will already be gone, for that is the indication clearly stated by the prophecy of the great global apostasy. Some believe that the church will have been evacuated in some sort of mysterious cosmic disappearing act. What actually seems to be happening is death and corruption. Today the church is dead. There is still flesh on the bones, but it is no longer able to react to its environment. Sounds like death to me!
The church is indeed disappearing. Not in miraculous fashion as in the dreams of writers of religious fiction, but as a process of inglorious decay and rot. Jesus does not come for the church. He comes for Israel.
No pretended prophet is capable of such a thing. No half dead legend can do so.
Only a man reborn from the grave with the powers of life and death in His hand can do that.
In all the sad long tale of the history of man only one such person has ever been able to do the things that Jesus did or can hold our hopes for the future as He does.
Only a god can do that.
It has been truly said that the ossification of the church began with the removal of Christ as One who has earned our respect and who is deserving of our worship, from the very position of God. Once done, the hollow shell that once was the glorious church on earth will be easily crushed by the enemies of God; the world.
With Jesus' return, however, all discussions and debates about Him will be reduced to a few dusty footnotes in the sad history of mankind. They will be there if anyone will care to read them, but with Our Lord back on earth seated upon His rightful throne in history, I doubt few will bother to look.
but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
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