Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,256
856
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
With spiritual growth issues there can be varying beliefs, but only the doctrines that are settled in the “truth” will liberate you from disappointment (Jhn 8:32). Concerning the issue of receiving salvation, there can be no varying beliefs on the essentials of believing in the Lord Jesus’ expiation for our sins. Scripture is directly clear for ease of understanding the latter, but is not always so clear in the former, which answers to the various interpretations concerning spiritual growth issues.

Myself, I believe the difficulties with interpreting the growth truths (esp. the Pauline Epistles) are to allow us to exercise love to one another in the proper manner of patience with wanting to understand one another. After all, everything God does is to this end, to live in His love to Him and to one another (Jhn 13:35); and not as we love ourselves but as He loves us (Jhn 15:12). I believe those with the correct understanding of the growth truths will continue to grow and increasingly find less, if any, disappointments (we should never be disappointed); and those who struggle more than not in apprehending the growth truths will continue to encounter disappointments—but yet are retained in their salvation.

At face value, the spiritual growth truths of the NT of Scripture often appear contradictory (which of course is never actual), and answers to the reason why most Bible commentators utilize the method of “necessary inference” (which opponents call “new inference”) in order to maintain a unified agreement between scriptures. Some commentators use the method of Biblicism (literalism) but results with less success and accurate interpretation.

Example: “Whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die” (Jhn 11:26).
Apparent contradiction: “Every branch in Me that bears not fruit He takes away” (Jn 15:2).
Inference: Many if not most understand the phrase “in Me” to mean “believes in Me,” and understandably so considering the way it reads. But to avoid contradiction between these two passages it’s required to assume (infer) that “in Me” has the intention that “everyone who professes to believe in Me,” otherwise contradiction cannot be avoided.

John Gill – “There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him.”
John 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Example: “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith” (1Ti 4:1).
Inference: “some shall depart from the profession of the faith,” since God keeps those who truly are in the faith from leaving it (Phl 1:6).

John Gill – “that is, from the doctrine of faith, notwithstanding it is indisputably the great mystery of godliness, as it is called in the latter part of the preceding chapter; for from the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, such as is here designed; for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature, and therefore more precious than gold that perishes, and Christ is the author and finisher of it.”
1 Timothy 4 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

My reason for sharing this is only to be informative of some of the ways commentators reason the Scriptures. I do not expect most to be receptive of this information, but I believe some will benefit. Personally I believe the present lack of spiritual growth will continue until the translation of the Church, in which of course all will come to light.

God’s guidance to all who seek truth over self-justification, and God be blessed in the highest!
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Example: “Whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die” (Jhn 11:26).
Apparent contradiction: “Every branch in Me that bears not fruit He takes away” (Jn 15:2).

Greetings, Net Chaplain.

I know you usually just post without interacting, so not expecting you to respond here, but I found these two verses thought-provoking side by side.

I would account for the apparent contradiction as follows: Many commentators would read "lives and believes in Me" as if the words "in Me" applied to both verbs, when in fact it may not. A more logical reading would be just as it is written, "Whosoever lives, and believes in Me." In other words, provided they are alive in Him spiritually, if they continue to believe in Him they will never die. Whereas in the second verse, those branches who get pruned away because they never bore fruit cannot be said to have "remained in Him" (John 15:4). Thus, they are no longer "alive," which would make "believing on Him" a waste of time at that point, having cast aside their 1st Love and crucified Him anew.

Just my thoughts. God bless, and wish you well.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Addressing the OP, this is a very Good Topic, I commend you. I like that about the two different branches. but all of us are given the same amount of FAITH, Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

this if I may would like to address. first, we all are in need of milk, for we're new born babes. 1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"
1 Peter 2:3 "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious."

but many of us do what Roman 12:3 warn aganist, "to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think"

with that many fall into the trap of the devil, Hebrews 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."
Hebrews 5:13 "For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe."
Hebrews 5:14 "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

we, we, we, think that we know it all, (still on milk), and missed the very "FIRST PRINCIPLE" of God, to be TAUGHT by him, the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts." (THERE IT IS, PLAIN AND SIMPLE).
Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

AND WHEN WE START OUT. Galatians 4:1 "Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;"
Galatians 4:2 "But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father." BINGO. this is where many of us make our mistake, we went and was not SENT by God. we must first be taught by God before we go. we all crawl before we walk.

1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

the key is, "but the greatest of these is charity".

PICJAG.
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,256
856
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
if they continue to believe in Him they will never die.
Hi! It's okay, but I might be misunderstanding you concerning not replying, which I do when I see replies, unless I haven't seen the reply. Just wanted to address the above comment. It's my understanding that genuine belief is permanent, and is why it is never said to "continue to believe" (not picking on your comment but pointing out an important issue).

Thanks for your kindness and reply, and God's blessings to your Family!
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,256
856
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
Hi, and much appreciate your encouraging compliments! I like that the general point of your reply concerns spiritual growth (which all believers continue in), as it is as important (though not salvific-essential) as receiving salvation, for God uses us more as we grow in Christ. Also just wanted to point out a common misunderstanding of the phrase "every man." Most interpret it to mean every person on the earth, but the sense is in reference only to everyone God has dealt faith to, "for all men have not faith," or of course, "not everyone has faith" (2Th 3:2).
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,870
21,905
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Example: “Whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die” (Jhn 11:26).
Apparent contradiction: “Every branch in Me that bears not fruit He takes away” (Jn 15:2).
Inference: Many if not most understand the phrase “in Me” to mean “believes in Me,” and understandably so considering the way it reads. But to avoid contradiction between these two passages it’s required to assume (infer) that “in Me” has the intention that “everyone who professes to believe in Me,” otherwise contradiction cannot be avoided.
Hi NC,

Interesting thread, and interesting example!

For myself, I think that when Jesus said "every branch in me", that he was referring to, "if any be in Christ, he is a new creation", but that the one who is a new creation, but does not bear fruit, will be taken away by the Father, that is, an early death.

In my case I make my inference in a different place, that "carried away by the Father" is to be understood as the untimely death of the believer.

So then the 3 states of branches are of two are in Christ, and one that is not, and is burnt, the unbeliever.

As I'm scrolling back up to reread, I see @Hidden In Him chose the same spot to comment on. :)

I've seen for a long time that disagreements about Scripture, if discussed properly, if you will, that is, fully, without reservation or agenda, and in real love - not sweet icing over a sour cake - that these disagreements will virtually always come down to one of two causes.

One is that there will be a verse where someone will point to a word, and say, it doesn't really mean that. Example would be the Deluge. Some point to "all the earth" and say it means part of the earth, or, that God desires all men to repent, and say it mean all elect men to repent.

But even that is an inference, because they've inferred that it should be that way based on their understanding of some where else.

The other I've found to be the more reasonable reason to disagree is where we come to a place such as what you've pointed out, and discover, as in this example, that one has made this inference, and the other has made a different inference.

I've been disappointed in Biblical discussion more times than I can count in that the person I am discussing with won't follow it through that far, for various reasons, played out in various ways, usually identifiabe from a list of Logical Fallacies.

I'd love to have more discussion that will get into the details like this. I think it to be very valuable to identify the inferences we make, and put them to the test, whether they truly harmonize or not.

I think that this is so easy to do - make inferences, that is - that someone can not realize that's what they are doing.

It's important to know what the Bible says, and important to know what it doesn't say.

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi! It's okay, but I might be misunderstanding you concerning not replying, which I do when I see replies, unless I haven't seen the reply. Just wanted to address the above comment. It's my understanding that genuine belief is permanent, and is why it is never said to "continue to believe" (not picking on your comment but pointing out an important issue).

Thanks for your kindness and reply, and God's blessings to your Family!


Well thank you for the courteous response. I kind of assumed you might be OSAS and/or maybe Baptist from some of your other posts, so this is somewhat the response I thought I might receive. Just thought I would add my own view after reading your post.

God bless, and nice receiving a reply from you. Good to know there's a real guy behind all those posts I see. :)
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,256
856
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In my case I make my inference in a different place, that "carried away by the Father" is to be understood as the untimely death of the believer.

So then the 3 states of branches are of two are in Christ, and one that is not, and is burnt, the unbeliever.
Hi, and I always appreciate the kindness you maintain in your posts! To me, being "cast in the fire" (Jhn 15:6) is always a definite reference to "the lake of fire."
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,870
21,905
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To me, being "cast in the fire" (Jhn 15:6) is always a definite reference to "the lake of fire."

I think so also.

Where some think of "the branch that does not remain in me" as someone who is "in Christ", but doesn't stay there, this also makes an inference, that remaining in Christ means that are are in fact in Christ. "I don't stay in that house" doesn't mean I once did!

Much love!

And knowing those who set a good example helps the rest of us to remember to rise to a higher level!
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,256
856
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think so also.

Where some think of "the branch that does not remain in me" as someone who is "in Christ"
It goes before the issue of remaining. To me the issue of "no fruit" is always in reference to "no connection." Faith can be weak in the immature, but it eventually grows and produces fruit (works--from the Spirit). "A man may say" he has faith (Jas 2:18), which is reference to false professors who show honor to the Lord Jesus "with their lips," but their heart is far from Him (Mat 15:8). A said-faith can be without works, but never a saving faith!

Much Love Too!
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks