You people

[Matthias]

“But I have a testimony greater than that from John. For the deeds that the Father has assigned me to complete - the deeds I am now doing - testify about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified about me. You people have never heard his voice nor seen his form at any time, nor do you have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the one whom he sent.”

(John 5:3638, NET)

 

[Matthias]

Who are “you people” that Jesus is addressing?

 

[Brakelite]

Who are “you people” that Jesus is addressing?

The Jews who sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, (supposedly) but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

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[Matthias]

The Jews who sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, (supposedly) but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

So unbelieving Jews, not believing Jews. He’s dealing here with unbelievers.

Should they have heard the Father’s voice and seen his form? Was he chastising them for something which it is impossible for anyone to do?

 

[Brakelite]

So unbelieving Jews, not believing Jews.

Should they have heard the Father’s voice and seen his form?

Should they? The Father spoke loudly like a trumpet at Sinai, and Israel quaked and kept their distance. The Father spoke again at Jesus's baptism, but the Jews were too deaf to hear. Interesting don't you think, that the Father does have a form. And the Son was His image. The Father isn't some spirit cloud floating unseen and translucent in heaven. He has a form, He has a throne in heaven, attended to by gazillions of angels, and represented on earth by His Son. If one sees the Son, he sees the Father. That does not mean they are one and the same. Separate personalities. Separate identities.

 

[Matthias]

Should they? The Father spoke loudly like a trumpet at Sinai, and Israel quaked and kept their distance. The Father spoke again at Jesus's baptism, but the Jews were too deaf to hear. Interesting don't you think, that the Father does have a form.

Someone suggested to me recently on the forum that the Father is invisible and cannot be seen by anyone other than himself.

The invisible has form which can be seen seen by others.

It was also suggested to me in that conversation that no one has ever heard the Father’s voice. It was implied that no one but the Father himself will ever hear the Father’s voice.

You’ve put forth literal examples countering those suggestions.

And the Son was His image. The Father isn't some spirit cloud floating unseen and translucent in heaven. He has a form, He has a throne in heaven, attended to by gazillions of angels, and represented on earth by His Son. If one sees the Son, he sees the Father. That does not mean they are one and the same. Separate personalities. Separate identities.

Image. Representation. Agency.

The unbelieving Jews should have heard the Father’s voice, not literally, but through the words spoken by Jesus. Jesus is the voice of the Father. The unbelieving Jews should have seen the Father’s form, not literally, but in the form of the person standing before them as the Father’s representative / agent. Jesus is the form of the Father.

Jesus wasn’t, then, chastising them for something which it is impossible for any Jew to do. He was chastising them for not doing what is possible for every Jew to do.

They should have heard and they should have seen. They were chastised for refusing to do what they should have done.

By extension, it isn’t just the unbelieving Jews of his day that Jesus is chastising. Nor is it only unbelief among Jews which persists to this day. It is a rebuke to unbelievers in general - a rebuke to Jews and gentiles - who refuse to believe that he is the one promised and sent by God.

 

[Matthias]

“You people” in its original context is expanded to include all people who refuse to see, hear, understand and repent through the carrying out of the great commission.

 

[Matthias]

SHURF. An acronym from the parable of the sower. See, hear, understand, repent and be forgiven.

See, hear, and understand what in order to repent and be forgiven?

The gospel of the kingdom preached by Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Hiddenthings]

“But I have a testimony greater than that from John. For the deeds that the Father has assigned me to complete - the deeds I am now doing - testify about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified about me. You people have never heard his voice nor seen his form at any time, nor do you have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the one whom he sent.”

(John 5:3638, NET)

The context:

The 9th Commandment was: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against they Neighbour”.

They had!

However, he never claimed equality!!!

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jn 5:18.

What the Jews did not realise is that Jesus had another witness! the Supreme Witness – his Father....an eternal Witness / Light not a temp burning flame!

I would not expect many in this forum could understand the depth of this section of Scripture Matthias!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why today, do they make more of Christ than he made of himself?

Verse 39 will one day reveal the answer....

 

[Matthias]

The context:

The 9th Commandment was: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against they Neighbour”.

They had!

However, he never claimed equality!!!

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jn 5:18.

What the Jews did not realise is that Jesus had another witness! the Supreme Witness – his Father....an eternal Witness / Light not a temp burning flame!

I could not expect many in this forum could understand the depth of this section of Scripture Matthias!

Jesus is functionally equal with his God and Father. He is the authorized representative of God.

Starting with the Jews, he preached the gospel of God; the salvation message of God to mankind.

The unbelieving - whether Jew or Gentile - who reject Jesus are rejecting the witness of the one who sent him.

 

[Matthias]

Why today, do they make more of Christ than he made of himself?

Out of a sincere desire to honor him.

Verse 39 will one day reveal the answer....

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus is functionally equal with his God and Father. He is the authorized representative of God.

The unbelieving - whether Jew or Gentile - who reject Jesus are rejecting the witness of the one who sent him.

True, but he never claimed equality. There's an important principle here, Matthias, one the Lord still upholds to this day and always will.

And you're right about your second point.

 

[JustMe]

Yes, the OP scripture of 'You people' applies to all believers, of every generation, even today.

"..You people have never heard his voice nor seen his form at any time, nor do you have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the one whom he sent.”

Three senses at play metaphorically...hearing, seeing and sensing/touching. The last one is the key and the driver that usually gets overlooked in this scripture. If one does not have the word of God within them, first being touched by God, they can neither see: experience, or hear: the ability take the inner messages/cues of God to the mind and heart. Sensing/touching, being drawn to the spirit of God activates spiritual ears and then the eyes to then see or understand; the initial basis to become a genuine believer in God

Only one who is truly touched by God who first believes in his Son, as Peter did, in identifying who Jesus really was, is an example of a Pre-Pentecost believer. God drew him to know the truth.

 

[Matthias]

True, but he never claimed equality.

Agency is the equality.

There's an important principle here, Matthias, one the Lord still upholds to this day and always will.

And you're right about your second point.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Out of a sincere desire to honor him.

Ironically, the Jews falsely accused Christ of making himself equal with God and condemned him for it. What do many Christians do today? Do they exalt him beyond his known and accepted position?

 

[Matthias]

Ironically, the Jews falsely accused Christ of making himself equal with God and condemned him for it. What do many Christians do today? Do they exalt him beyond his known and accepted position?

The Messiah didn’t make himself equal with God. God himself made the Messiah equal with him. This is prefigured in Moses.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Agency is the equality.

His agency was equality, "morally" speaking - that is all! He will forever be subject to the Father.

 

[Matthias]

His agency was equality, "morally" speaking - that is all! He will forever be subject to the Father.

In other words, God is the head of Messiah (1 Corinthians 11:3).

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Messiah didn’t make himself equal with God.

Correct.

God himself made the Messiah equal with him. This is prefigured in Moses.

Jesus was a prophet greater than Moses

Deut 18:15

This passage is a direct reference to Christ as the Prophet, as affirmed by Peter when he cited it in proclaiming the Gospel (Acts 3:22–23).

In Deuteronomy 18, Moses not only points forward to the coming of the unique Prophet, but also lays out the test of a true prophet (verses 20–22). The Hebrew word translated prophet is nabi, derived from the verb naba, meaning "to boil up" or "bubble over." According to Gesenius, it conveys the image of a fountain bursting forth from within a man into whom God has poured His Spirit.

The Greek word for prophet carries the sense of speaking on behalf of another—specifically, speaking in place of God. A prophet, therefore, not only foretold God's purposes (predictive prophecy), but also forth-told His will—declaring God's truth, offering instruction, exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor. 14:3).

The prophet foretold in Deuteronomy was to arise from among the people, a fellow Israelite. At his first coming, Jesus was indeed recognized as the Prophet Moses had spoken of (John 1:45; Acts 3:22–23; Acts 7:37).