The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

QUOTE;
"Revelation 19 is not a surprise event. It is a planned event down to the day and the hour. Revelation 19 is what is called Armageddon. Revelation 19 is 3.5 days after the 2 witnesses are killed. The 7 vials are poured out during those 3.5 days. Revelation 19 is the winepress of God's wrath, as the one mentioned in Revelation 14 did not happen. If the winepress happened in Revelation 14, then Satan was never given 42 months, and the winepress was at the end of the days of the 7th Trumpet, and the 144k did not leave on white horses. The winepress is not a harvest to eternal life. The winepress is the last of humanity physically dying. "

You have that all muddled up friend.
Jesus Returns after the trib or wrath or whatever the current modern word is, on white horses, destroys the devils army and chains satan, kicking off the mil.
The 144 k are ALREADY IN HEAVEN per rev14.




Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

So simple, but people need it all complicated

Then the Second Coming in your opinion is not a surprise event?

The tribulation that the Second Coming is after is the 2,000 years of church tribulation as noted by Jesus in Matthew 24:4-14

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

After that the church is not on the earth nor coming out of great tribulation, from that point on, after the 6th Seal has removed all the surprise of what is to come. Why do you think the time of greatest tribulation ever has lasted for 1994?

Jacob's trouble is after the Second Coming when Jesus and the angels are gathering Jacob from all over the world, after the Second Coming. The Second Coming that is not against Satan, but an event that no one will be prepared for, because it happens at a moment when you think not. Since you think the planned battle of Armageddon is the Second Coming, then it is not, according to Jesus' own words:

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

 

[TribulationSigns]

Of course this miracle took place in AD 33.

Well duh.

And the persecution of the disciples by the Jewish religious leadership started some 50 days afterward.

The persecution of the church started immediately after Pentecost.

Satan wasted no time in starting a war against the early church.

Satan is always in war with the congregation of Israel. First the old testament congregation, then the new testament congregation.

Scripture says that the very day Stephen was stoned to death, a great persecution arose against the church, with Saul / Paul's participation and collusion with the high priest.

Show me the Scrpture that says this exactly. Don't say "Scripture says" when I know the verse does not say about the great persecution against the church after Stephen was stoned. The persecution already took place before Stephen.

The 144,000 "First-fruits" Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were still around at that time.

Keep in mind. It is the resurrection of the BODIES "OF" the Saints. Not "resurrection of the actual saints" themselves. Big different.

We know this because of Ephesians 4:8-12 and Romans 8:23.

Really? Let see...

Eph 4:8-12
(8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
(10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Rom 8:23
(23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

No, it does not say anything about the "resurrection of Saints" to come out of the grave to encourage New Testament believers in time of persecution. You make it up.

Their mere presence on earth served as an encouragement to the persecuted believers who were being killed for the faith.

False. Nowhere in Scripture says this.

The miracle of the bodily resurrection of the Matt. 27:52-53 saints showed the believers what was in store for themselves should they suffer martyrdom for the faith.

Huh?!
Mat 27:52-53
(52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Your doctrine is fatally flawed. Do you think that the bodies of the Old Testament Saints were to serve a purpose to warn believers that they will suffer martyrdom? You have no clue what you are babbling about! All it says is that it "appeared unto many." That does not give you the right to speculate what they were supposed to do in the city.

Dying for the sake of Christ would only lead to their own bodily resurrection, which Paul testified was "about to be" in their own generation (Acts 24:15, 2 Tim. 4:1, Acts 17:31).

Ridiculous. You did not get the generation part right first anyway. The rest is nonsense.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Show me the Scrpture that says this exactly. Don't say "Scripture says" when I know the verse does not say about the great persecution against the church after Stephen was stoned. The persecution already took place before Stephen.

Acts 8:1 (YLT) tells us about the great persecution against the church starting the very day of Stephen's martyrdom. "And Saul was assenting to his death, and there came IN THAT DAY a great persecution upon the assembly in Jerusalem, all also were scattered abroad in the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles:" Up to that point, the disciples as the leaders of the church had been targeted by the Jewish religious leadership, but not the entire church in Jerusalem yet.

Your doctrine is fatally flawed. Do you think that the bodies of the Old Testament Saints were to serve a purpose to warn believers that they will suffer martyrdom?

Christ had already warned His disciples that they would receive persecution as they evangelized from city to city in Israel - with some of them being put to death for His name's sake. They would be "hated of all men". But in spite of this persecution and martyrdom, He told them "not a hair of your heads shall perish". That was because they would receive a bodily resurrection at His return. The examples of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints showed proof of Christ's resurrecting power for believers to everyone who saw them. If you don't think that was encouraging for those believers in the early church who were going to experience persecution and / or martyrdom, something is wrong with you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Acts 8:1 (YLT) tells us about the great persecution against the church starting the very day of Stephen's martyrdom. "And Saul was assenting to his death, and there came IN THAT DAY a great persecution upon the assembly in Jerusalem, all also were scattered abroad in the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles:" Up to that point, the disciples as the leaders of the church had been targeted by the Jewish religious leadership, but not the entire church in Jerusalem yet.

False. The church began at Pentecost (33AD) where millions of the Jews visited Jerusalem from regions and countries in observation of Passover. Many of them were filled with the Holy Spirit by the original Christians who spoke their language before returning home outside Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria. The persecution followed, not just the disciples. Remember Saul had to pursue the Christians who have settled in Damcaus long before your 66-70AD nonsense.

Christ had already warned His disciples that they would receive persecution as they evangelized from city to city in Israel - with some of them being put to death for His name's sake.

So?

They would be "hated of all men".

So, so were the Christians until today. Do you realize that hate is the same as murder in God's eyes, Matthew 5:23-24? So the persecution wasn't always physical.

But in spite of this persecution and martyrdom, He told them "not a hair of your heads shall perish".

So?

That was because they would receive a bodily resurrection at His return.

When is his return, exactly?

The examples of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints showed proof of Christ's resurrecting power for believers to everyone who saw them.

Again, not "resurrected Saints". It is resurrected body "OF" the Saints. The saints' souls weren't in that resurrected bodies in Jerusalem. Selah!

If you don't think that was encouraging for those believers in the early church who were going to experience persecution and / or martyrdom, something is wrong with you.

No something is wrong with your theory. You need to read the verses again:
Mat 27:51-54
(51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(54) Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Nothing is said here to confirm your claim that the purpose of the bodies of the saints were resurrected so to "encourage" believers in face of persecution. Not at all.

Since it was a SPIRITUAL PICTURE or FIGURE of the resurrection. Nothing more. Not the "actual" resurrection, as that would mean ALL the Old Covenant Saints would have been raised up. Obviously, it was not the actual resurrection. The saints that once possessed those bodies were already absent from them, and present with the Lord in Heaven... just like Moses and Elijah! So those bodies could ONLY go to the physical city, get this, AS A SIGN, and for one very specific Godly purpose. Which is "To Appear Unto Many" that the testimony of witnesses might be found on the pages of Holy Canon. Selah!

You seem dead set on completely "ignoring" and/or casting aside the very plain context of this whole episode, as well as the statement that the Centurion saw all those things that were done. Was the Centurion in heaven to fear when the bodies came out of the grave and went into the Holy City? We simply cannot ignore the very plain context of this taking place on earth. I mean we can, but it is not Biblically justifiable.

Moreover, the First Resurrection of Christ was the fulfillment of the Festival of Firstfruits. We, in our Spiritual resurrection afterward, are only firstfruits in Christ's First Resurrection. In other words, through His Spirit dwelling within us, are we firstfruits also. Get it?? That is when we were born again! We have the Firstfruits of the Spirit. While we are absent from the Lord in the sense of still being here on earth in THIS fleshy body, we do groan in the flesh under the burden of sin and affliction "Specifically" because of having the first-fruits of the Spirit. Which is the Spirit of Christ in us.

Romans 11:16

• "For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches."

We are Holy, unblameable, righteous, having the firstfruits of the Spirit ONLY because the Root in us, Christ, "IS" the Firstfruit.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In case that you are still spiritually blind, 3 Resurrection. Read it again:

The Resurrection of a few bodies of the saints were a "SIGN" that because Christ was First raised, believers are raised after. Why would there be a resurrection of only "a few" Old Covenant believers? If this was a Resurrection of Old Testament saints, then ALL of them had to be resurrected, not just a few! Get it? Obviously, this is absolutely not the Resurrection of Old Covenant saints. Its merely a miraculous
SIGN or token of the Resurrection. I keep reading of all these special rules being made up in order to support various doctrines like yours.

Look at Moses and Elijah who already had special resurrections before Christ, or Enoch had a different Resurrection, though no one else can have that, and now I'm hearing that only a few Old Testament saints were resurrected because it was just an example? Half True, because it was an example, but not with real dead saints, but their bodies as signs/examples/figures. The fact is, all Old Covenant saints were Resurrected in Christ just as we were, not just a few who appeared to many in heaven for some very strange reason. ALL! Every last one of them. In Christ.

1st Corinthians 15:22

• "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

All are made alive in Christ's First Resurrection, the moment they are born again with the Spirit of Christ, from Adam to the last man! None of the bodies that were in the grave and released by an earthquake, went into heaven. Physical earthly bodies of men do not go into heaven. That's an impossibility. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. And that includes dead dusty flesh. A person must be changed, put off that body, leave it in the grave in order to enter into heaven. Thus [n]No Bodies from the graves[/b] rose and entered the Kingdom of heaven and appeared to many. They went into the Holy City Jerusalem and appeared to many, who testified of this, and Matthew penned that testimony.

As for Corinthians, I do not say that the passage is not difficult. But you misunderstand what is stated. It clearly states Christ was risen from the dead and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Thus Christ is the Firstfruits, and we are firstfruits only in His resurrection. Not just a few bodies, all of us. So the obvious question concerning the verse is, when are we made alive? When are we become firstfruits in this context? Is it at the end of the world, or now as we have been raised up in Christ? Each man must answer that for himself.

1st Corinthians 15:22-23

• "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
• But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

We have to read this circumspectly. EXACTLY when were all dead in Adam? That's an easy answer. And having understood that, the question then is "exactly" when were we all made alive in Christ? Every man in his own order. Answer that Biblically and you'll understand why Christ had to have preeminence, had to be the Firstbegotten from the dead, and how we are born again from the dead after Him, but according to that very same First Resurrection. ....IN HIM! CLEARLY, we aren't made alive at the last day, at the judgment day, but when we become saved by having the firstfruits of the Spirit come to dwell with us. We are "ALL," every man, made alive, in his own order. Paul 2000 years ago, Frankie this year, Martha two years ago, we are all made alive in our own order. And its not to wait until Christ's second coming to be made alive or resurrected firstfruits.

Matthew 16:28

• "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

We indeed are firstfruits in order, Christ first in all things. Thus, in Christ Shall All Men Be made Alive, and they don't have to wait for the second coming. For His Kingdom has already come through the Church IN 33AD! Not 70AD. And His will "will" be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.

Selah

 

[rebuilder 454]

Then the Second Coming in your opinion is not a surprise event?

The tribulation that the Second Coming is after is the 2,000 years of church tribulation as noted by Jesus in Matthew 24:4-14

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

After that the church is not on the earth nor coming out of great tribulation, from that point on, after the 6th Seal has removed all the surprise of what is to come. Why do you think the time of greatest tribulation ever has lasted for 1994?

Jacob's trouble is after the Second Coming when Jesus and the angels are gathering Jacob from all over the world, after the Second Coming. The Second Coming that is not against Satan, but an event that no one will be prepared for, because it happens at a moment when you think not. Since you think the planned battle of Armageddon is the Second Coming, then it is not, according to Jesus' own words:

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

No matter how many sentences you post Revelation 19 stands alone. That setting starts in heaven and it depicts one Rider on a white horse Jesus, leading an army of saints possibly millions or billions on millions or billions of white horses. And when they come they do battle with the Antichrist and defeat his armies. That is the second coming on white horses. The Great Tribulation depicts things that have never happened. That is immediately before the White Horse Second Coming. I have no idea how you conflated that 7-year tribulation. With what people go through today. It is incredibly different. Even Jesus described it and he said a tribulation such as the world has never seen and will never see again. Stalin did worse than Hitler as far as Exterminating Jews. But the Antichrist coming he will exterminate Christians. The Jews will possibly come later in the Bible says they are ushered into a place of safety with Satan hot on their heels. The devil sends a flood after them to kill them. But it says the Earth swallows up the flood. And by the way only the 144,000 ethnic Jews are sealed against the stinging scorpions.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Lol Rabbit trail. Christ the Firstfruits and His Body the Church, being One with Him are the Firstfruits. The 144000 is the Church

Then "first fruits" has no meaning.
Harvest is three or four parts depending on how you look at it. And so by you making the entire Gathering to heaven as just one massive first fruit then there's no reason to call Christ first fruits. You have taken away that meaning.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You been shown verses, but you cant believe them

I took the time to give you a very small generalized teaching on first fruits and what it is. You are taking first fruits and seeming to transform that into something meaningless that has nothing to do with a portion of the Harvest. First fruits is actually a portion of the main Harvest.
I also pointed out to you ,that when Jesus descended ,he preached to the captives which were the Patriarchs of the Old Testament. He also preached those in prison that were lost.
And so that small group that was resurrected from the dead accompanied Jesus to heaven as a small part of those resurrected that are in Christ Jesus.
In other words a small portion of the main Harvest went first to heaven. These are the first fruits of the Harvest, or, gathering of the Bride ,which is the main Harvest.
which means that literally billions of saints will come up out of the grave and billions of saints, or millions , will be also caught up in this main Harvest.
They are not nor can they be first fruits because the first fruits have already left and are in heaven. You have been shown verses but you can't believe them

 

[brightfame52]

Then "first fruits" has no meaning.
Harvest is three or four parts depending on how you look at it. And so by you making the entire Gathering to heaven as just one massive first fruit then there's no reason to call Christ first fruits. You have taken away that meaning.

It has no meaning to you

 

[brightfame52]

I took the time to give you a very small generalized teaching on first fruits and what it is. You are taking first fruits and seeming to transform that into something meaningless that has nothing to do with a portion of the Harvest. First fruits is actually a portion of the main Harvest.
I also pointed out to you ,that when Jesus descended ,he preached to the captives which were the Patriarchs of the Old Testament. He also preached those in prison that were lost.
And so that small group that was resurrected from the dead accompanied Jesus to heaven as a small part of those resurrected that are in Christ Jesus.
In other words a small portion of the main Harvest went first to heaven. These are the first fruits of the Harvest, or, gathering of the Bride ,which is the main Harvest.
which means that literally billions of saints will come up out of the grave and billions of saints, or millions , will be also caught up in this main Harvest.
They are not nor can they be first fruits because the first fruits have already left and are in heaven. You have been shown verses but you can't believe them

Thats fine what you did, but

You been shown verses, but you cant believe them

 

[rebuilder 454]

It has no meaning to you

Suit yourself.
At some point maybe "tribes",
"12 thousand", "144 thousand," and " firstfruits" will be understood outside your reframing of Gods word.
Until then just ascribe whatever to it.
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thats fine what you did, but

You been shown verses, but you cant believe them

MY post was explicit.
Yours is yet another meaningless dodge.
That most always means surrender to my forcing you to refute the bible

 

[brightfame52]

MY post was explicit.
Yours is yet another meaningless dodge.
That most always means surrender to my forcing you to refute the bible

The Church is the 144 000 Its Joint Heirs with Christ Her Head Rom 8 23,17

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[brightfame52]

The 144000 are merely believers in Christ being clothed in His Righteousness and hence without Fault Jude 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Rev 14 5

And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The Holy Spirit uses the same greek word for both places amōmo: without blemish, faultless, unblamable

 

[grafted branch]

The 144000 are merely believers in Christ being clothed in His Righteousness and hence without Fault Jude 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Rev 14 5

And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The Holy Spirit uses the same greek word for both places amōmo: without blemish, faultless, unblamable

Congratulations, you just proved the 144,000 are believers. Unfortunately nobody is arguing that they aren’t believers.

The argument is whether they are the entire group of believers throughout time or not.

 

[Keraz]

The argument is whether they are the entire group of believers throughout time or not.

The 144,000 will be selected out of the living believers, twelve groups of the peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. Rev 7:9
Jesus will do it, as He is revealed to His own people. 2 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1-5

 

[grafted branch]

The 144,000 will be selected out of the living believers, twelve groups of the peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. Rev 7:9
Jesus will do it, as He is revealed to His own people. 2 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1-5

Well personally I think the 144,000 being sealed is long pasted.

In Revelation 7:4 John heard the number of them which were sealed, meaning previously sealed. They were sealed during the time that the four winds were not blowing.

 

[brightfame52]

Congratulations, you just proved the 144,000 are believers. Unfortunately nobody is arguing that they aren’t believers.

The argument is whether they are the entire group of believers throughout time or not.

Uh yes, thats exactly who they are, why wouldnt be ? Its the church of the firstborn Heb 12:23

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

You know who the Firstborn is dont you ?

 

[Ritajanice]

Colossians 1:15-19He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created … He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

[grafted branch]

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

You know who the Firstborn is dont you ?

Are you personally part of the general assembly and Church of the first born? Or are you personally the entire assembly and entire Church of the first born?

Uh yes, thats exactly who they are, why wouldnt be ? Its the church of the firstborn Heb 12:23

Because nobody walks around claiming they are the entire body of Christ, that would violate 1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

For some eschatological reason you need the 144,000 to be the entire body through out all of time. But by making that claim you are asserting that man can in some way number the great multitude which violates Revelation 7:9.

Just as some people will argue that they can know the very day and hour in Matthew 24:36 so too you are arguing against the scriptures themselves. Again, nobody is arguing that the 144,000 are not saved, just that they aren’t the entire body of Christ.