The 144,000 before God at the end.

[TribulationSigns]

I just want to clarify, your view is that the physical city of Jerusalem was holy, <40> hagios, after the veil was torn?

No.

The Earthly Jersualem was not holy at the time when the veil was torn. Nevertheless, it was still called the Holy City (Matthew 4:5). Even as it is to this day. And for GOD'S PURPOSE, it was called that here. Since Jerusalem is "called" the Holy City. The building is "called" the Holy Temple. The nation is "called" Israel, the Holy Nation. This is done in Scripture SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE God is "signifying" by this, the deeper Spiritual truth. Namely, the resurrection of the saints from "spiritual death" unto New Jersualem, manifested in this bodily resurrection from physical death and these bodies "OF" the Saints going into earthly Jerusalem and appeared before many.

Vis-a-vis, the resurrection of Lazarus spiritually, is manifested to us in the resurrection of Lazarus physically. The healing of people spiritually is manifested to us by the healing of people physically. The poisoning of men spiritually is manifested to us by the poisoning of men physically. The feeding of the hungry spiritually is manifested to us by the feeding of the hungry physically. The list of such miraculous phenomenon goes on and on. And the point of "ALL" of them is some spiritual truth that transcends these physical miracles on earth. So even as physical healing really has NOTHING to do with true salvation, so corpses leaving the grave and appearing to many in the Holy City of Jerusalem, has NOTHING to do with spiritual resurrection. BUT it is a "picture" or snapshot of this true resurrection for all to consider. And that is why it is in the Bible. The same reason the Bible tells you to lay hands on the sick, and they will recover:

Acts 21:28

• "Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place."

Yes, there is nothing Holy about this place (after the cross), BUT it's still called the holy place by men. And indeed, God could have reduced Jerusalem to a speck of dust, never to be heard from again. But He didn't. That men still know this city as the Holy City, and the temple built there as the Holy place, even though it is no longer standing even to this day, is a testimony to God, not to them. He named it the Holy City, and He had the dead come out of the graves and enter into it. Not as a testimony to it's holiness or to them, but to the Resurrection.

Selah.

I don’t always agree with you but I do find it helpful that you give detailed explanations of your view.

I do not expect everyone to agree with me on everything and follow me here. My testimony here is for anyone who wants to learn more.

 

[TribulationSigns]

But TS, I agree with this statement of yours above. That's my point. The physical bodies of the 144,000 First-fruits (Matt. 27:52-53) coming to life again in their glorified, incorruptible bodies was a sign and an example of what we all as believers can expect for ourselves as part of our inheritance in Christ. God was providing the example of these Matthew 27:52-53 saints coming to life again to be seen of many as an encouraging goal for all the spiritually-resurrected believers to recognize from then on. Especially for those saints in the first century who were almost immediately going to experience blistering persecution for their faith from the hostile Jewish leadership (including Saul / Paul) and also from the Roman emperor Nero.

The physical bodies 'of' the Saints appearing the the city are not 144,000 but as a sign pointing to the true 144,000 of all Saints (and their souls). Not 144,000 literal men as you believe. Nothing to do with Nero or 70AD. Remember this miracle already took place in 33AD.

It wasn't just Christ the First-fruits who would have that glorified, resurrected body. "For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection." (Rom. 6:5). In the bodily resurrection events from the "First resurrection" to the last resurrection event, God changes the "vile bodies" of His saints so that they are "fashioned like unto His glorious body". (Phil. 3:21). This alteration by a physical resurrection of our bodies into a changed, immortal condition is what Full Preterists deny. I challenge them on this all the time.

The chosen believers are the first-fruits IN Christ who is the ultimate the first fruits. In their order as I have already explained.

The reason why it was only those Jewish Israelite tribal members who participated in the 144,000 First-fruits that were bodily resurrected by Christ on the same day He arose was to show the ethnic Israelite people of Christ's day that their Old Covenant was being changed into the New Covenant which included them also, if they would only get on board with it. Some ethnic Israelites did (the "remnant" Isaiah and Paul spoke of). Most ethnic Israelites at that time didn't, so the main evangelistic emphasis of the gospel began going to the Gentiles, by Paul's ministry in particular.

I understand, but that is not what Christ talked about. The resurrection of the BODIES "OF" the Saints occurred does not mean this was actual resurrection of the Old Testament Saints. No. It was used as an example, a picture of the TRUE RESURRECTION of ALL Saints from Abel to Last Elect who will appear to Spiritual Jerusalem in heaven. Just as Jesus and the Apostles physically healed the people does not mean that we, today, can go around and heal people in the streets physically, but to prove that Christ has the power to heal sinners from their spiritual sickness which the blind, deaf, lepers, internal bleeding, lame, etc are symbolically of! And we, as Christians and Two Witnesses were given power to heal people by preaching the Gospel just as the Apostles did as an example!

 

[brightfame52]

So how do you explain the number 144,000? If it’s meant as a symbolic number that equals the multitude that no man can number then no man can count that symbolic number.

This means no man has the ability to determine what this number means, correct?

I just told you. Its the completed Church of God, all of its members, the number is mere symbolic, its the Spiritual Israel of God, the Church. To man its a number no man can number, and yes its the same group, From Gods perspective then from mans.

God promised Abraham a Seed Gen 15:4-6

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[grafted branch]

I just told you. Its the completed Church of God, all of its members, the number is mere symbolic, its the Spiritual Israel of God, the Church. To man its a number no man can number, and yes its the same group, From Gods perspective then from mans.

God promised Abraham a Seed Gen 15:4-6

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Your view is 144,000 = multitude that man can’t number.

On the one hand you agree that no man can number the multitude and on the other hand you know that number is 144,000. You can’t have it both ways, one of those two hands isn’t the truth.

 

[brightfame52]

Your view is 144,000 = multitude that man can’t number.

On the one hand you agree that no man can number the multitude and on the other hand you know that number is 144,000. You can’t have it both ways, one of those two hands isn’t the truth.

You wasting my time, you dont pay attention to nothing.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your view is 144,000 = multitude that man can’t number.

On the one hand you agree that no man can number the multitude and on the other hand you know that number is 144,000. You can’t have it both ways, one of those two hands isn’t the truth.

Again, 144,000 is a symbolic number that God assigned to the Great Mulitidues. John heard the number and saw the Great Mulitidues that the number represented! Sorry, 144,000 is not the head count.

 

[Timtofly]

I never wrote that the 144,000 First-fruits were resurrected at the Cross. These 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 saints came out of their graves AFTER Christ's resurrection, on that same day that He arose. The resurrected Christ resurrected them all out of their broken-open graves around Jerusalem. The 144,000 First-fruits were also the "remnant of the dead" in Rev. 20:5 that came to life again in the "First resurrection" at the ending point of the millennium in AD 33.

These 144,000 First-fruits of Rev. 14:4 are the same as the 144,000 from all those stipulated Jewish tribes in Rev. 7. We know these were resurrected, glorified individuals because their bodies were "redeemed from the earth", and they were "without fault", with no guile in their mouth in a state of perfected, resurrected incorruptibility. They stood with the Lamb on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, which is what the Matthew 27:52-53 saints did on the same day when the newly-resurrected Christ was in Jerusalem. that day. They went into Jerusalem and were seen of many there.

It is the crowned Son of Man in Revelation 14 sitting on a cloud (at His resurrection-day ascension to the Father) which "harvested" that group out of the earth with the sickle. On this occasion, Christ did this "harvesting" by Himself, with no assistance from the angels, which would assist with gathering the resurrected saints in the next resurrection event.

These 144,000 First-fruits, resurrected Matt. 27 saints remained on the earth in the days of the early church, serving as evangelists, pastors, prophets, and teachers to edify the body of Christ. They remained on the earth in a sealed, protected status which reserved them for their eventual rapture to heaven in AD 70, along with the rest of the saints resurrected at Christ's return.

The years of Great Tribulation starting in AD 66 could not harm any of these sealed, 144,000 resurrected individuals, since they were in a glorified, incorruptible condition in the eternal state which is impervious to any kind of harm whatever.

No, they ascended to Paradise Sunday morning, that is when they permanently left the grave. They are not the 144k from either Revelation 14 nor 7.

There was only one firstfruit and the rest were all the firstfruits. Lazarus was the firstfruit resurrected a week or two prior to the Cross. The rest of the church waiting in Abraham's bosom all came out of their graves when Jesus declared, "it is finished".

You are missing Matthew's point. Not all were in graves, nor buried in Jerusalem. Those in Jerusalem came out and hung out in Jerusalem a few days until Resurrection Sunday. Then they permanently left the earth and ascended into Paradise with Jesus and all presented to God as the firstfruits in 1 Corinthians 15.

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,"

Two things happened at the same time:

The Temple was no longer God's meeting place on earth.

The OT saints arose, which is a resurrection.

Next verse does not change that point.

"And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

That first part means it was permanent, they would never return to those graves. The only time they appeared was between the Cross and their ascension into Paradise with Christ. Jesus did not appear until after He returned from Paradise later that day. No one was seen with Jesus, as they all remained in Paradise.

No one sees a person after physical death, either. That person has entered Paradise into the same permanent incorruptible physical body those OT redeemed had, that allowed them to ascend to Paradise. No one on earth saw the OT redeemed after Sunday morning.

 

[grafted branch]

Again, 144,000 is a symbolic number that God assigned to the Great Mulitidues. John heard the number and saw the Great Mulitidues that the number represented! Sorry, 144,000 is not the head count.

Whether the number 144,000 is a head count or not isn’t the issue. You are saying that the multitude can be symbolically numbered by man, but verse 9 says no man can number them.

144,000 is a literal number, it certainly has symbolic meaning but it is a literal number just as 666 is a literal number that represents something. We are told in Revelation 13:18 to count the number of the beasts. We are not told to count the number of believers, we are told the opposite, no man can number them, that is the problem.

Also in Revelation 7:4 John hears the number that were sealed <4972> sealed as in past tense, not an on going action.

 

[ewq1938]

Whether the number 144,000 is a head count or not isn’t the issue. You are saying that the multitude can be symbolically numbered by man, but verse 9 says no man can number them.

144,000 is a literal number, it certainly has symbolic meaning but it is a literal number just as 666 is a literal number that represents something. We are told in Revelation 13:18 to count the number of the beasts. We are not told to count the number of believers, we are told the opposite, no man can number them, that is the problem.

Also in Revelation 7:4 John hears the number that were sealed <4972> sealed as in past tense, not an on going action.

Numbers and verb tenses mean nothing to Amill.

 

[Timtofly]

We can both make the point that the white horse riders will eventually include the 144k.
The point is, Jesus returns in vs 14 sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, to gather the main harvest AFTER the 144k gathering,
No white horses are there in either gathering.
Are you aware of "SETTING" in any of the verses?????????

Eventually there will be white horses, or white horses are their only means of transportation?

The 144k are sealed prior to the final harvest. Just like the 12 disciples were chosen before the 70.

You have the 144k, and then a third of all Jacob's descendants as the remnant who return on white horses, along with some from every nation, the wheat sown by Jesus Himself personally.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

That is the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat from the final harvest during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. The 144k were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened. The sheep gathered during the first 6 Trumpets. The wheat is from the harvest of the 7 Thunders from every other nation on earth. All are the firstfruits and first generation of the Day of the Lord.

This is explained in Matthew 13 and 25 as something that happens after the Second Coming when Jesus and the angels are on the earth doing the work of the final harvest.

At the Second Coming, the church is removed. Then the 144k are sealed. Then the 7th Seal is opened and the sheep and goats are all of Israel, harvested next. The majority tossed into the LOF. The one third remnant redeemed and restored and all 100% of Israel will be placed back as natural branches. But then there is the wheat and tares harvest. This is where several billion are judged and a remnant redeemed while the majority are tossed into the LOF. This is applying Matthew to the Revelation narrative.

Both chapters express that Jesus and the angels are on the earth gathering souls in this harvest most view as the GT. Many are lost in the false left behind narrative, thinking only about the NT church, and who is left behind or not left behind. Or who is attacking who or not being attacked.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You have been shown scripture, but thats not going to help the deceived. May God have mercy on you to show you the truth, thats whats needed. You clearly trusting in the flesh, ethnicity, even if you not a jew yourself, you still put ethnicity into the equation of Salvation, and not Christ alone.

I had just pointed out you generalized accusations that you decided to invoke instead of debating verses.
What do you do?
Go to the same Ole mess.
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

Eventually there will be white horses, or white horses are their only means of transportation?

The 144k are sealed prior to the final harvest. Just like the 12 disciples were chosen before the 70.

You have the 144k, and then a third of all Jacob's descendants as the remnant who return on white horses, along with some from every nation, the wheat sown by Jesus Himself personally.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

That is the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat from the final harvest during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. The 144k were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened. The sheep gathered during the first 6 Trumpets. The wheat is from the harvest of the 7 Thunders from every other nation on earth. All are the firstfruits and first generation of the Day of the Lord.

This is explained in Matthew 13 and 25 as something that happens after the Second Coming when Jesus and the angels are on the earth doing the work of the final harvest.

At the Second Coming, the church is removed. Then the 144k are sealed. Then the 7th Seal is opened and the sheep and goats are all of Israel, harvested next. The majority tossed into the LOF. The one third remnant redeemed and restored and all 100% of Israel will be placed back as natural branches. But then there is the wheat and tares harvest. This is where several billion are judged and a remnant redeemed while the majority are tossed into the LOF. This is applying Matthew to the Revelation narrative.

Both chapters express that Jesus and the angels are on the earth gathering souls in this harvest most view as the GT. Many are lost in the false left behind narrative, thinking only about the NT church, and who is left behind or not left behind. Or who is attacking who or not being attacked.

At the second coming the sky is blackened with millions of white horses because Jesus is on the lead horse and the armies of Heaven, millions and millions of saints, following on white horses. There is not a single Rapture verse where the setting includes white horses nor is there any room for white horses on any of the Rapture verses.
It's simply will not fit.
You completely ignore the setting.

the setting is thrown completely under the bus. Every Rapture verse that should be included in the debate you omit.
You will not go to what Jesus described at his coming in mat 24 to gather pre judgement.
2DISTINCT IRREFUTABLE comingS.
Two prejudgment Dynamics .lot and Noah.

None of your teachers ,nor you, will go to Matthew 25 which is a vivid Vivid unmistakable depiction of the rapture.
Literally impossible to miss.
And yet none of your teachers will go there unless challenged.
You need to ask yourself why all the 0missions ?????
everywhere you look In your pretribber teachers there are pretrib rapture omissions .
none of your teachers will give any acknowledgment of the setting of The Rapture.
The bride / groom dynamic is missing in your "exegesis"...TOTALLY MISSING!!!!!
The GREATEST EVENT is about to take place.
You are basically oblivious to it!!!!!!
Your teachers are oblivious to it!!!!
It literally seems impossible.
And yet the OMISSION is actually defended??????

 

[rebuilder 454]

The saints took part in Christs Resurrection, And He is the First fruits, Christ the Head, the Saints His Body.

You have never heard the bible teaching on "Jesus descended to paradise and preached to those in prison?"
The patriarchs were in paradise.
The cross was in their future.
Once Jesus purchased us/ them, Jesus went and brought that revelation to them.( they were not yet redeemed...no purchase had been made)
The now purchased patriarchs, were resurrected, as depicted in the word of God, and were BROUGHT TO HEAVEN ALONG WITH JESUS AS FIRSTFRUITS.
WE are not FIRSTFRUITS.
We are of the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Seems so many here have no understanding what FIRSTFRUITS is.

So many here do not understand there are two resurrections.
One Resurrection which is in Christ .
it's the dead in Christ
if they were not dead they could not be resurrected .
they have to be dead first.
In the first resurrection , the first fruits of the first resurrection is Jesus and the Patriarchs
THEY are first fruits of the FIRST RESURRECTION.
I have no idea what is so difficult about that.
it is understandable.
It is vivid and plain and simple.
Now first fruits always ....every single time.... points to harvest.
Harvest is for parts, or could be three parts depending on how you look at it.
First fruits is the first part of HARVEST.
Now that we know that first fruits is part of harvest we can begin to understand what first fruits is.
If we as the body of Christ our first fruits then there is no correlation of why we would need any first fruits whatsoever.
It's just simply a resurrection of the body of Christ along with Jesus and the Patriarchs there's no need to label anything as first fruits because according to your plan there is no first fruits that is that we can point to .
there's just one continuous Resurrection.
So without understanding Harvest ,which first fruits points to, we can just call it anything we want.

The second Resurrection is after the millennium and it's so clear and Vivid I don't know how anybody could possibly miss it
THE ENTIRE PLANET POPULATION Resurrected bodily to the great white Throne judgment.
so these people bodily stand in front of God himself. Neither I nor you or anybody understands that judgment
all we know is that the Book of Life is opened and if you're not in it you're cast into LOF and that's all we know.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Again, 144,000 is a symbolic number that God assigned to the Great Mulitidues. John heard the number and saw the Great Mulitidues that the number represented! Sorry, 144,000 is not the head count.

Not even close.
The word of God is explicit in their number
The word of God goes to the extreme of showing explicitly how that EXPLICIT NUMBER is arrived at.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The physical bodies 'of' the Saints appearing the the city are not 144,000 but as a sign pointing to the true 144,000 of all Saints (and their souls). Not 144,000 literal men as you believe. Nothing to do with Nero or 70AD. Remember this miracle already took place in 33AD.

Of course this miracle took place in AD 33. And the persecution of the disciples by the Jewish religious leadership started some 50 days afterward. Satan wasted no time in starting a war against the early church. Scripture says that the very day Stephen was stoned to death, a great persecution arose against the church, with Saul / Paul's participation and collusion with the high priest.

The 144,000 "First-fruits" Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were still around at that time. We know this because of Ephesians 4:8-12 and Romans 8:23. Their mere presence on earth served as an encouragement to the persecuted believers who were being killed for the faith. The miracle of the bodily resurrection of the Matt. 27:52-53 saints showed the believers what was in store for themselves should they suffer martyrdom for the faith. Dying for the sake of Christ would only lead to their own bodily resurrection, which Paul testified was "about to be" in their own generation (Acts 24:15, 2 Tim. 4:1, Acts 17:31).

No, they ascended to Paradise Sunday morning, that is when they permanently left the grave. They are not the 144k from either Revelation 14 nor 7.

We have scripture that tells us the bodily-resurrected Matt. 27:52-53 saints did NOT ascend bodily to heaven on the day they were raised from those graves (and Paradise is not the same thing as heaven). Revelation 15:8 tells us that no man was able to enter heaven's temple until the 7 plagues were poured out. That included the Matt. 27 saints also. The Matt. 27:52-53 saints remained on earth in those first-century days until those 7 plagues were finished, and then they ascended to heaven together with the rest of the righteous dead who were resurrected at Christ's coming (in AD 70).

 

[Timtofly]

At the second coming the sky is blackened with millions of white horses because Jesus is on the lead horse and the armies of Heaven, millions and millions of saints, following on white horses. There is not a single Rapture verse where the setting includes white horses nor is there any room for white horses on any of the Rapture verses.
It's simply will not fit.
You completely ignore the setting.

the setting is thrown completely under the bus. Every Rapture verse that should be included in the debate you omit.
You will not go to what Jesus described at his coming in mat 24 to gather pre judgement.
2DISTINCT IRREFUTABLE comingS.
Two prejudgment Dynamics .lot and Noah.

None of your teachers ,nor you, will go to Matthew 25 which is a vivid Vivid unmistakable depiction of the rapture.
Literally impossible to miss.
And yet none of your teachers will go there unless challenged.
You need to ask yourself why all the 0missions ?????
everywhere you look In your pretribber teachers there are pretrib rapture omissions .
none of your teachers will give any acknowledgment of the setting of The Rapture.
The bride / groom dynamic is missing in your "exegesis"...TOTALLY MISSING!!!!!
The GREATEST EVENT is about to take place.
You are basically oblivious to it!!!!!!
Your teachers are oblivious to it!!!!
It literally seems impossible.
And yet the OMISSION is actually defended??????

You do not understand the point that Jesus and the angels are on the earth. I am pointing that out, and you avoid Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 stating that and change the subject. Revelation 19 is not the rapture nor the Second Coming.

The rapture is the 5th Seal. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. There are no horses at the rapture and Second Coming, because the 144k have not even been sealed until after the Second Coming.

The 144k are on the earth with Jesus and the angels while Jesus is sitting in Judgment on a throne, in a temple, in Jerusalem. Jesus sits as King over Israel until the 7th Trumpet, and then Jesus is declared King over all the nations at that point.

The Cross was 3.5 years after the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan. Jesus would be declared King at the 7th Trumpet 3.5 years after the baptism of fire, per 2 Peter 3. John made that prophecy when he was about to baptize Jesus. But the baptism of fire was not the first century task Jesus had. The Cross was the part where Messiah was cut off. The 6th Seal is where Jesus as King baptizes the world in fire, and all the works of man are burned up.

We see this in Matthew 24. We see this in 2 Peter 3. We see this in Revelation 6. We see this in Zechariah 14.

We do not see this in Revelation 19.

When they start riding white horses is not in Revelation 19. We are not told when. The church is not coming to the earth in Revelation 19. Only the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat of the final harvest. The only reason why they are returning after the 42 months, is because they left when Satan was made the 8th kingdom of earth, 3.5 days after Jesus was declared the 7th Kingdom at the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus and Satan do not co-reign on the same throne in Jerusalem. In the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet, Satan is handed that throne, and Jesus and the 144k leave on white horses, because they return the same way they left 42 months later.

You are denying that returning on horses can infer they left on horses, the opposite way they will return. God can obviously create horses in an instant. John did not dwell on the infamous set back when Satan is handed the kingdom. John dwells on the point where the 7th Kingdom is restored, and Satan is defeated. The FP and beast of the 42 months that turned Jerusalem into mystery Babylon are cast alive into the LOF. Satan is bound in the pit for a thousand years. That is the point of Revelation 19. There is no rapture nor Second Coming mentioned at all in Revelation 19. That is the teaching of churchianity over the centuries you need to argue against, as wrong.

Revelation 19 is not a surprise event. It is a planned event down to the day and the hour. Revelation 19 is what is called Armageddon. Revelation 19 is 3.5 days after the 2 witnesses are killed. The 7 vials are poured out during those 3.5 days. Revelation 19 is the winepress of God's wrath, as the one mentioned in Revelation 14 did not happen. If the winepress happened in Revelation 14, then Satan was never given 42 months, and the winepress was at the end of the days of the 7th Trumpet, and the 144k did not leave on white horses. The winepress is not a harvest to eternal life. The winepress is the last of humanity physically dying.

There is only one winepress. You cannot kill everyone twice. Either the winepress happens after 7 days (the days of the 7th Trumpet), or it happens 42 months and 3.5 days after Jesus and the 144k leave on white horses, so they return on white horses. Daniel 9:27 is the event where Jesus leaves on Wednesday in the middle of the week. The kingdom is removed and Satan's AoD of mystery Babylon is set up.

The only reason these 42 months happen is so those on earth can choose between taking the mark or chopping their head off. That is the only reason. Those 42 months are not for Satan, nor for those who take the mark. Those 42 months are for grace and mercy shown to those who chop their heads off. And the reason Jesus gives to flee, when Satan sets up the AoD, is so that those fleeing can make a rational decision, instead of a rash last minute decision to just take the mark and reject God.

Once again, during those 42 months salvation is a free choice, by faith. Jesus is not present on earth. Jesus does not make that decision for them. The only witness will be the 2 witnesses, up until the end, and then they will be killed and left for dead for 3.5 days while the 7 vials are poured out on those who took the mark, and did not chop their heads off. Satan's Babylonian empire is not the Sunday school picnic all those who romanticize via symbolism, where the church fights against the beast for 42 months. It is abomination and desolation like never experienced, not even prior to the Flood of Noah's day. Those beheaded are not the church, nor ever will be in this current creation as part of the church. They are the gleanings just barely making it into the Day of the Lord, "saved as a brand, from the fire". They have not been judged by Jesus like the sheep and wheat. They are judged after Armageddon, when they stand before the church sitting on thrones of judgment, and they are given a first resurrection in order to physically live on the earth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You do not understand the point that Jesus and the angels are on the earth. I am pointing that out, and you avoid Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 stating that and change the subject. Revelation 19 is not the rapture nor the Second Coming.

The rapture is the 5th Seal. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. There are no horses at the rapture and Second Coming, because the 144k have not even been sealed until after the Second Coming.

The 144k are on the earth with Jesus and the angels while Jesus is sitting in Judgment on a throne, in a temple, in Jerusalem. Jesus sits as King over Israel until the 7th Trumpet, and then Jesus is declared King over all the nations at that point.

The Cross was 3.5 years after the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan. Jesus would be declared King at the 7th Trumpet 3.5 years after the baptism of fire, per 2 Peter 3. John made that prophecy when he was about to baptize Jesus. But the baptism of fire was not the first century task Jesus had. The Cross was the part where Messiah was cut off. The 6th Seal is where Jesus as King baptizes the world in fire, and all the works of man are burned up.

We see this in Matthew 24. We see this in 2 Peter 3. We see this in Revelation 6. We see this in Zechariah 14.

We do not see this in Revelation 19.

When they start riding white horses is not in Revelation 19. We are not told when. The church is not coming to the earth in Revelation 19. Only the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat of the final harvest. The only reason why they are returning after the 42 months, is because they left when Satan was made the 8th kingdom of earth, 3.5 days after Jesus was declared the 7th Kingdom at the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus and Satan do not co-reign on the same throne in Jerusalem. In the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet, Satan is handed that throne, and Jesus and the 144k leave on white horses, because they return the same way they left 42 months later.

You are denying that returning on horses can infer they left on horses, the opposite way they will return. God can obviously create horses in an instant. John did not dwell on the infamous set back when Satan is handed the kingdom. John dwells on the point where the 7th Kingdom is restored, and Satan is defeated. The FP and beast of the 42 months that turned Jerusalem into mystery Babylon are cast alive into the LOF. Satan is bound in the pit for a thousand years. That is the point of Revelation 19. There is no rapture nor Second Coming mentioned at all in Revelation 19. That is the teaching of churchianity over the centuries you need to argue against, as wrong.

Revelation 19 is not a surprise event. It is a planned event down to the day and the hour. Revelation 19 is what is called Armageddon. Revelation 19 is 3.5 days after the 2 witnesses are killed. The 7 vials are poured out during those 3.5 days. Revelation 19 is the winepress of God's wrath, as the one mentioned in Revelation 14 did not happen. If the winepress happened in Revelation 14, then Satan was never given 42 months, and the winepress was at the end of the days of the 7th Trumpet, and the 144k did not leave on white horses. The winepress is not a harvest to eternal life. The winepress is the last of humanity physically dying.

There is only one winepress. You cannot kill everyone twice. Either the winepress happens after 7 days (the days of the 7th Trumpet), or it happens 42 months and 3.5 days after Jesus and the 144k leave on white horses, so they return on white horses. Daniel 9:27 is the event where Jesus leaves on Wednesday in the middle of the week. The kingdom is removed and Satan's AoD of mystery Babylon is set up.

The only reason these 42 months happen is so those on earth can choose between taking the mark or chopping their head off. That is the only reason. Those 42 months are not for Satan, nor for those who take the mark. Those 42 months are for grace and mercy shown to those who chop their heads off. And the reason Jesus gives to flee, when Satan sets up the AoD, is so that those fleeing can make a rational decision, instead of a rash last minute decision to just take the mark and reject God.

Once again, during those 42 months salvation is a free choice, by faith. Jesus is not present on earth. Jesus does not make that decision for them. The only witness will be the 2 witnesses, up until the end, and then they will be killed and left for dead for 3.5 days while the 7 vials are poured out on those who took the mark, and did not chop their heads off. Satan's Babylonian empire is not the Sunday school picnic all those who romanticize via symbolism, where the church fights against the beast for 42 months. It is abomination and desolation like never experienced, not even prior to the Flood of Noah's day. Those beheaded are not the church, nor ever will be in this current creation as part of the church. They are the gleanings just barely making it into the Day of the Lord, "saved as a brand, from the fire". They have not been judged by Jesus like the sheep and wheat. They are judged after Armageddon, when they stand before the church sitting on thrones of judgment, and they are given a first resurrection in order to physically live on the earth.

QUOTE;
"Revelation 19 is not a surprise event. It is a planned event down to the day and the hour. Revelation 19 is what is called Armageddon. Revelation 19 is 3.5 days after the 2 witnesses are killed. The 7 vials are poured out during those 3.5 days. Revelation 19 is the winepress of God's wrath, as the one mentioned in Revelation 14 did not happen. If the winepress happened in Revelation 14, then Satan was never given 42 months, and the winepress was at the end of the days of the 7th Trumpet, and the 144k did not leave on white horses. The winepress is not a harvest to eternal life. The winepress is the last of humanity physically dying. "

You have that all muddled up friend.
Jesus Returns after the trib or wrath or whatever the current modern word is, on white horses, destroys the devils army and chains satan, kicking off the mil.
The 144 k are ALREADY IN HEAVEN per rev14.




Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

So simple, but people need it all complicated

 

[Timtofly]

We have scripture that tells us the bodily-resurrected Matt. 27:52-53 saints did NOT ascend bodily to heaven on the day they were raised from those graves (and Paradise is not the same thing as heaven). Revelation 15:8 tells us that no man was able to enter heaven's temple until the 7 plagues were poured out. That included the Matt. 27 saints also. The Matt. 27:52-53 saints remained on earth in those first-century days until those 7 plagues were finished, and then they ascended to heaven together with the rest of the righteous dead who were resurrected at Christ's coming (in AD 70).

Revelation 15:8

"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

That has not happened yet. That may never happen. That is one moment in time, yet in an unfulfilled future.

That moment is predicated on the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet has not sounded as of this moment. The Second Coming has not happened as of this moment.

No one was allowed into Paradise, and Paradise is in heaven. You appropriate verses from the future and state a first century fact. Then you ignore Genesis 3 that states none of Adam's descendants in a state of death could enter Paradise, much less the temple from the moment Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden until the thief entered Paradise/heaven the day Jesus died on the Cross.

Paradise was not the grave. Jesus said Abraham's bosom was in sheol, the grave, not Paradise. There is not a single credible verse in God's Word that ever states Paradise sunk into the earth along with the tree of life and was marooned in the grave until the Cross, where all the OT hung out and ate from the tree of life. Then Paradise was moved along with all the OT into heaven at some point. That is all science fiction fantasy of human imagination.

I never said the OT saints left their graves the day of the Cross and immediately ascended to Paradise that day. I said:

They physically arose that day with physical bodies. They permanently left their graves never to return 3.5 days later on Sunday morning when Jesus ascended to God to present the OT as the firstfruits, mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15, as Christ the firstfruits, plural, not Christ the firstfruit, singular. Some visited people in Jerusalem, because that is where their graves were. But the OT redeemed were buried in graves all over the earth, not just in Jerusalem, nor Israel. Since Abraham and Noah, it had been 3 to 4 millennia of redeemed souls dying all over the earth for generations. All were waiting in death, in the grave, in Abraham's bosom to be able to enter Paradise and return to their home, that Adam and Eve lost for them.

No one in the first century were waiting for 7 plagues, because the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders never happened, much less Satan ruling over the entire earth for 42 months. Even if John saw history as you claim, and not even the future, and was stuck on the Isle of Patmos in 66AD, no one would have even read what he wrote, until years later, when he was released from Patmos.

Preterist tend to think that Revelation was written to immediately warn the generation that died out prior to Revelation even being given and written. Then call it a history book of what happened in the past. That is not how manuscripts of Scripture even work. Not even Daniel was a road map to the recovery and rebuilding of Jerusalem. Most of the theological arguments over the OT Canon don't even accept Daniel as an OT book from God. Why would they reference it for any guidance at all? The book of Revelation only arrived at those seven churches, when John was able to take those letters in person years after 70AD. Revelation was never placed into the category of an historical reference to first century events, at least not prior to the Reformation. Then some claim a Jesuit did that as a counter reformation ideology.

 

[brightfame52]

I had just pointed out you generalized accusations that you decided to invoke instead of debating verses.
What do you do?
Go to the same Ole mess.
SMH

You been shown verses, but you cant believe them

 

[brightfame52]

You have never heard the bible teaching on "Jesus descended to paradise and preached to those in prison?"
The patriarchs were in paradise.
The cross was in their future.
Once Jesus purchased us/ them, Jesus went and brought that revelation to them.( they were not yet redeemed...no purchase had been made)
The now purchased patriarchs, were resurrected, as depicted in the word of God, and were BROUGHT TO HEAVEN ALONG WITH JESUS AS FIRSTFRUITS.
WE are not FIRSTFRUITS.
We are of the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Seems so many here have no understanding what FIRSTFRUITS is.

So many here do not understand there are two resurrections.
One Resurrection which is in Christ .
it's the dead in Christ
if they were not dead they could not be resurrected .
they have to be dead first.
In the first resurrection , the first fruits of the first resurrection is Jesus and the Patriarchs
THEY are first fruits of the FIRST RESURRECTION.
I have no idea what is so difficult about that.
it is understandable.
It is vivid and plain and simple.
Now first fruits always ....every single time.... points to harvest.
Harvest is for parts, or could be three parts depending on how you look at it.
First fruits is the first part of HARVEST.
Now that we know that first fruits is part of harvest we can begin to understand what first fruits is.
If we as the body of Christ our first fruits then there is no correlation of why we would need any first fruits whatsoever.
It's just simply a resurrection of the body of Christ along with Jesus and the Patriarchs there's no need to label anything as first fruits because according to your plan there is no first fruits that is that we can point to .
there's just one continuous Resurrection.
So without understanding Harvest ,which first fruits points to, we can just call it anything we want.

The second Resurrection is after the millennium and it's so clear and Vivid I don't know how anybody could possibly miss it
THE ENTIRE PLANET POPULATION Resurrected bodily to the great white Throne judgment.
so these people bodily stand in front of God himself. Neither I nor you or anybody understands that judgment
all we know is that the Book of Life is opened and if you're not in it you're cast into LOF and that's all we know.

Lol Rabbit trail. Christ the Firstfruits and His Body the Church, being One with Him are the Firstfruits. The 144000 is the Church