The (7th) Abomination That Maketh Desolate

[Earburner]

Good reading comprehension isn't Pharisaical.

While I've shown you two reasons - noun/pronoun gender agreement, and noun antecedent proximity - for why "them" cannot possibly refer to "horns" - all you've done is merely toss in the "c" word and insist it does. We call that "subjective reasoning" which is in no way to be confused with sound hermeneutics.

The context is established by facts, not wishful thinking, friend

I'm pretty sure it's not.

As I have shown, the point of KJV Dan. 7:6; 8:9 is to reveal that the "four notable ones" [horns/heads] were coming from that which was the one notable horn that was broken, who was Alex the Great.
"Horns" and/or "heads" are symbolic of kingdoms/governments with military power.

The process of hermeneutics, aka "the wisdom of men", is not "The Guide" for interpreting and comprehending Dan. 8:9 and it's context. Therefore, when the understanding of THAT verse and it's context is perceived by only the human mind, and not by "the mind of Christ", the gathering of historical facts will inevitably be skewed.

Greece was the 3rd beast, and at the "latter end" of the 4 divisions of it is when the Rome arose to conquer it. Antiochus reigned 8th in a line of 20 or so kings, so even if "them" could refer to "horns", Antiochus was way too early to even be considered as such - right or wrong?

The angel clearly reveals that the little horn rose from out of one of the four horns/heads, of which was the Seleucid Empire, the latter time of the 3rd beast.

It doesn't matter when A. Epiphanes reigned.
What matters is when did the prophecy of the 2300 days begin, and at what point did the 1290 to 1335 days within it take place.

Without the correct historical account of how and when "the abomination that maketh desolate" took place, one CANNOT correctly understand about the prophecy of "The 70 weeks" either.

ONLY the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees reveals the events concerning "the little horn" of "the 3rd beast", of which is long past. From that point, then shall the history of it unfold, and only then can it be correctly gathered.
Many have not understood that though the little horn "rose among the ten horns", he WAS NOT OF the 4th beast, but rather of the 3rd beast, being in the latter time of the 3rd beast's rule on the earth.

First, we'll stick to Scripture and history, not books that the papacy says we must accept or be "anathema".

Second, how could the AoD be almost 200 years before Christ when Christ Himself said it was still future?

Kingdoms always rise on the heels of the one falling before it.

Therefore, the Ten Horns barbarian tribes arose as the Roman Empire fell.

I'm not sure that's correct.

The ten horns are still future, and will not be known of who they are, until the Lord Jesus is on the verge of returning in flaming fire.

Since Judas M wasn't anywhere near "exceeding great" as the Little Horn was prophesied to be, why even consider him as a candidate?

It certainly doesn't rely on attributing greatness to people who are anything but.

Judas Maccabeus is not the comparison to be made for, in regards to the little horn's desire to exceed being great. The greatness of "Alexander the Great" was the "great" that the little horn was attempting to exceed.

The Little Horn arose among the Ten Horns of the fallen Roman Empire - just as prophesied.

The KJV reveals the words: "waxed exceeding great". The word "waxed" describes the little horn's forward thinking of his intention to exceed (to be greater than) the greatness of "Alexander the Great".

Not that the AoD was before Him.

Yes, in 538 A.D. The papacy is the only agency that fulfills all the idenfying marks of Bible prophecy concerning Antichrist.

Actually, I'm following the prophetic timeline established in Daniel and carried over to Revelation, instead of turning into a hodgepodge.

Trying to meld and blend Daniel in with Rev. Is a "hodgepodge".
As the book of Rev. is written for the NC. Church, this present Age of God's Grace, the book of Daniel was written for "thy people", being OC Israel, during the Age of God's Indignation.

Paul refers to the church as the "temple" over which the antichrist would rule - the papacy.

The only temple that God dwells in, during His Age of Grace on earth, is within the mortal and temporary bodies of His Born Again Saints.
2 Cor. 4:7.

 

[Timtofly]

Without the correct historical account of how "the abomination that that maketh desolate" took place, one CANNOT and will not have, the correct understanding about the prophecy of "The 70 weeks" either.

I am not sure historist like to take the historical record prior to the first century BC as relavant. They are more focused on the Reformation period of history.

It is not preterist to say history has fulfilled prophecy. It is preterist to say events that have not been fulfilled, which are still future, have already been fulfilled.

But all think they know which events have been fulfilled, even if they are wrong.

 

[Phoneman777]

As I have shown, the point of KJV Dan. 7:6; 8:9 is to reveal that the "four notable ones" [horns/heads]

Why do you insist "out of one of them" refers to "out of one of the horns/heads"

The process of hermeneutics, aka "the wisdom of men", is not "The Guide" for interpreting and comprehending Dan. 8:9 and it's context. Therefore, when the understanding of THAT verse and it's context is perceived by only the human mind, and not by "the mind of Christ", the gathering of historical facts will inevitably be skewed.

Your insistence that "them" refers to the wrong noun "horns" instead of the correct noun "winds" for reasons given which you still refuse to acknowledge or address is a prime example of the "skewed hermeneutics" of which you speak.

The angel clearly reveals that the little horn rose from out of one of the four horns/heads, of which was the Seleucid Empire, the latter time of the 3rd beast.

The only clarity is that "them" cannot possibly refer to "horns" because "them" is a masculine pronoun and "horns" is a feminine pronoun, and the nearest noun antecedent to "them" is "winds".

You disagree because you search Scripture to confirm you preconceived "truth" the Little Horn arose from the Seleucidline - instead of searching with an open mind, as I did, and discovered "them" can't possibly refer to "horns".

It doesn't matter when A. Epiphanes reigned.

Look, the prophecy says the Little Horn would arise "at the latter end of the kingdom" so if you're going to wrongly insist "them" points to a "kingdom" then you have to pick a king who ruled at the "LATTER END" - because Antiochus Epipemes IV ruled at the "FRONT END" as the 8th king out of 20 kings!

What matters is when did the prophecy of the 2300 days begin, and at what point did the 1290 to 1335 days within it take place.

The 2300 days has to do with when the Heavenly Sanctuary would be cleansed.

The 1,260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days have to do with the length of the reign of the Little Horn, and events thereafter.

You're Jesuit Futurist interpretation confuses the two while my Protestant Historicist view maintains their distinction.

Without the correct historical account of how and when "the abomination that maketh desolate" took place, one CANNOT correctly understand about the prophecy of "The 70 weeks" either.

I'll go one further: without a proper understanding of the OT sanctuary, one cannot begin to understand the prophecies of Daniel or Revelation, for sanctuary imagery is found in many of Daniel's prophecies and the prophecies of Revelation almost always unfold beginning with a description of where Jesus is standing in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

ONLY the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees reveals the events concerning "the little horn" of "the 3rd beast", of which is long past. From that point, then shall the history of it unfold, and only then can it be correctly gathered.

The books of Maccabees may be safely discarded, for to understand Bible prophecy, one need only the Holy Spirit, a KJV, and a competent knowledge of history.

Many have not understood that though the little horn "rose among the ten horns", he WAS NOT OF the 4th beast, but rather of the 3rd beast, being in the latter time of the 3rd beast's rule on the earth.

Daniel says the Ten Horns ("barbarian nations" which conquered Rome) arose out of the Fourth Beast (Rome). There's no getting around that.

The ten horns are still future, and will not be known of who they are, until the Lord Jesus is on the verge of returning in flaming fire.

The Ten Horns Which Arose From The Fourth Beast:

1. Anglo Saxons = Modern England
2. Francs = Modern France
3. Visigoths = Modern Spain
4. Allemani = Modern Germany
5. Lombards = Modern Italy
6. Burgundians = Modern Switzerland
7. Suevi = Modern Portugal

"before whom 3 were uprooted" by the Little Horn - the papacy - because these three opposed the papal antichrist

8. Vandals = Extinct
9. Heruli = Extinct
10 Ostrogoths = Extinct

Judas Maccabeus is not the comparison to be made for, in regards to the little horn's desire to exceed being great. The greatness of "Alexander the Great" was the "great" that the little horn was attempting to exceed. The KJV reveals the words: "waxed exceeding great". The word "waxed" describes the little horn's forward thinking of his intention to exceed (to be greater than) the greatness of "Alexander the Great".

No, the prophecy said nothing about "desiring" or "intending" for exceeding greatness. To the contrary, it plainly says it "became" exceeding great - right or wrong?

Trying to meld and blend Daniel in with Rev. Is a "hodgepodge".
As the book of Rev. is written for the NC. Church, this present Age of God's Grace, the book of Daniel was written for "thy people", being OC Israel, during the Age of God's Indignation.

Now this is incredible. Any Jew who got the letter from John and read about the beasts of Revelation 13 would immediately begin turning in his OT to the book of Daniel, and the same holds true for many other passages if Revelation.

The only temple that God dwells in, during His Age of Grace on earth, is within the mortal and temporary bodies of His Born Again Saints.
2 Cor. 4:7.

I agree with you 100% and any nonsense about a "third temple" having prophetic significance is just that...because God would never refer to a temple, in which the sacrifices taking place would be a collective Jewish middle finger in God's face, as the "temple of God".

 

[Earburner]

I am not sure historist like to take the historical record prior to the first century BC as relavant. They are more focused on the Reformation period of history.

It is not preterist to say history has fulfilled prophecy. It is preterist to say events that have not been fulfilled, which are still future, have already been fulfilled.

I do not brand myself as a historicist or a preterist, or any such thing. I am merely seeking to "worship God in Spirit and in truth". So then, what you and all hear from me, is what the Holy Spirit is teaching me through God's words from the KJV.

 

[Earburner]

Why do you insist "out of one of them" refers to "out of one of the horns/heads"

Dan. 7[6] After this I beheld, and lo another [3rd beast], like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the [3rd] beast had also four HEADS; and dominion was given to it.
Stop refusing the Jewish historical account of 1 and 2 Maccabees, of which is the desolation and restoration of the Jewish temple building of Israel.
Quite literally, the 2300 days in Daniel 12 was fulfilled during the Maccabean Revolt against the 3rd beast.
So much so is 1&2 Mac. historical, that the Jews still celebrate their vain tradition of the temple restoration- Hanukkah.

That speaks volumes about what Jesus says about Himself and all born again Christians, of being restored into the KoG by faith in Jesus' death and resurrection?
Jesus used that fulfilled event in TYPOLOGY, by pointing to Himself, as being that of the desolation and restoration of HIS MORTAL TEMPLE BODY. That is what His words point to:
John 2
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy [desolate] this temple, and in three days I will raise it up [restore it].
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
Mark 13
[14] But when YE shall see the abomination of desolation [Prov. 6:17], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Your insistence that "them" refers to the wrong noun "horns" instead of the correct noun "winds" for reasons given which you still refuse to acknowledge or address is a prime example of the "skewed hermeneutics" of which you speak.

The only clarity is that "them" cannot possibly refer to "horns" because "them" is a masculine pronoun and "horns" is a feminine pronoun, and the nearest noun antecedent to "them" is "winds".

So then, what are the "four winds", if they are not the directions of N,S,E,W on a compass?

You disagree because you search Scripture to confirm you preconceived "truth" the Little Horn arose from the Seleucidline - instead of searching with an open mind, as I did, and discovered "them" can't possibly refer to "horns".

I have no "preconceived truth" by way of the wisdom of men, through their natural minds, or even that of my own. I am more open minded than you can imagine, but I strictly do adhere to the teaching of the mind of Christ, who is within me, aka the Holy Spirit.

Look, the prophecy says the Little Horn would arise "at the latter end of the kingdom" so if you're going to wrongly insist "them" points to a "kingdom" then you have to pick a king who ruled at the "LATTER END" - because Antiochus Epipemes IV ruled at the "FRONT END" as the 8th king out of 20 kings!

No! The KJV says: Dan. 8
[21] And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king [Alexander the Great]. The Grecian Empire existed before Alex the Great, and therefore after his death, it divided into 4 kingdoms, but still remained to be the 3rd beast.
.
[22] Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation [of the 3rd beast], but not in his [Alexander's] power.
[23] And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom [of the 3rd beast], when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up [Antiochus Epiphanes lV].

6.4: The Hellenistic Era

human.libretexts.org

The 2300 days has to do with when the Heavenly Sanctuary would be cleansed.

Spiritually, indeed it does [through Jesus]. But in "type and antitype", both physically and figuratively, of which WAS all played out on earth beforehand, through Antiochus Epiphanes [the desolator] and Judas Maccabeus [the restorer] within the prophecy of the 2300 days. Dan 12:11-13, all of which was then literally fulfilled through Epiphanes and Maccabeus.

Figuratively speaking however, that all points to the prophecy of Zech. 4:14- "the two anointed ones", being that of the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus. Israel, committed the "abomination" of "shedding innocent blood" (1260-1290 days, all within the 2300).
Then following the 1290, is *45 days later, which was when the Day of Pentecost was fulfilled, as foretold in Dan. 12
[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety [1290] days.
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days. See Acts 1:1-9.

The 1,260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days have to do with the length of the reign of the Little Horn, and events thereafter.

No, it had to do with that of Antiochus Epiphanes, during the 1290 days, within the 2300 days.
The math is all there in 1&2 Maccabees, when one takes the time to study it. However, that literal prophecy has been fulfilled, and therefore once prophecy has been fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled again!! Therefore In typology, Jesus used it to show how it applied to Himself, even as He did the same with "Jonah and the whale", using both as signs.

I'll go one further: without a proper understanding of the OT sanctuary, one cannot begin to understand the prophecies of Daniel or Revelation, for sanctuary imagery is found in many of Daniel's prophecies and the prophecies of Revelation almost always unfold beginning with a description of where Jesus is standing in the Heavenly Sanctuary. In

See my recent explanation above.

The books of Maccabees may be safely discarded, for to understand Bible prophecy, one need only the Holy Spirit, a KJV, and a competent knowledge of history.

Sadly, you are extremely mistaken.

Daniel says the Ten Horns ("barbarian nations" which conquered Rome) arose out of the Fourth Beast (Rome). There's no getting around that.

I'm not trying to. The Ten horns are indeed Europe/NATO of today, as shown in king Neb's dream of the image/statue. However, the specific 10 appointed with the beast, are not yet known.

The Ten Horns Which Arose From The Fourth Beast:

1. Anglo Saxons = Modern England
2. Francs = Modern France
3. Visigoths = Modern Spain
4. Allemani = Modern Germany
5. Lombards = Modern Italy
6. Burgundians = Modern Switzerland
7. Suevi = Modern Portugal

"before whom 3 were uprooted" by the Little Horn - the papacy - because these three opposed the papal antichrist

8. Vandals = Extinct
9. Heruli = Extinct
10 Ostrogoths = Extinct

Agreed! Historically, the countries of Europe
exist, but who the ten are NOW, have not been appointed YET.

No, the prophecy said nothing about "desiring" or "intending" for exceeding greatness. To the contrary, it plainly says it "became" exceeding great - right or wrong?

You are not understanding the meaning of the word "waxed" in that verse from the KJV. (ie. The phases of the moon "waxes" to be full, and then "wanes" to be less full).

Now this is incredible. Any Jew who got the letter from John and read about the beasts of Revelation 13 would immediately begin turning in his OT to the book of Daniel, and the same holds true for many other passages if Revelation.

12. Yes, I agree. But ever since 70AD, the future of "the beast with 10 horns" has been EVOLVING, down through years, as shown in king Neb's dream of the image/statue.

I agree with you 100% and any nonsense about a "third temple" having prophetic significance is just that...because God would never refer to a temple, in which the sacrifices taking place would be a collective Jewish middle finger in God's face, as the "temple of God".

Amen!!

 

[Earburner]

(An edit of item #12 for my post #385*):
"Yes, I agree. But ever since 70AD, the future of "the beast with 10 horns" has been EVOLVING, down through years, as shown in king Neb's dream of the image/statue".

*Edit: We can see that prophetic "evolving" taking place in Rev. 13:1-10.
The correct understanding of who the SEVEN heads ARE:
Rev. 13
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having  SEVEN heads** and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his HEADS the NAME of blasphemy.
[2] And the Sea beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, [3rd beast), and his feet were as the feet of a bear [2nd beast], and his mouth as the mouth of a lion [1st beast]: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
10H Sea beast= 1 head of itself.
Leopard = 4 heads.
Bear= 1 head.
Lion= 1 head.
All totaling to be the SEVEN heads on the evolved "Sea beast, having 10H" of Rev.

The "Roman Republic" began in Daniel (509 BC), but had now become the Sea beast of the "Roman Empire" in 27 BC.

2B Cont'd.

 

[Phoneman777]

Dan. 7[6] After this I beheld, and lo another [3rd beast], like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the [3rd] beast had also four HEADS; and dominion was given to it.
Stop refusing the Jewish historical account of 1 and 2 Maccabees, of which is the desolation and restoration of the Jewish temple building of Israel.
Quite literally, the 2300 days in Daniel 12 was fulfilled during the Maccabean Revolt against the 3rd beast.
So much so is 1&2 Mac. historical, that the Jews still celebrate their vain tradition of the temple restoration- Hanukkah.

That speaks volumes about what Jesus says about Himself and all born again Christians, of being restored into the KoG by faith in Jesus' death and resurrection?
Jesus used that fulfilled event in TYPOLOGY, by pointing to Himself, as being that of the desolation and restoration of HIS MORTAL TEMPLE BODY. That is what His words point to:
John 2
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy [desolate] this temple, and in three days I will raise it up [restore it].
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
Mark 13
[14] But when YE shall see the abomination of desolation [Prov. 6:17], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


So then, what are the "four winds", if they are not the directions of N,S,E,W on a compass?


I have no "preconceived truth" by way of the wisdom of men, through their natural minds, or even that of my own. I am more open minded than you can imagine, but I strictly do adhere to the teaching of the mind of Christ, who is within me, aka the Holy Spirit.

No! The KJV says: Dan. 8
[21] And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king [Alexander the Great]. The Grecian Empire existed before Alex the Great, and therefore after his death, it divided into 4 kingdoms, but still remained to be the 3rd beast.
.
[22] Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation [of the 3rd beast], but not in his [Alexander's] power.
[23] And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom [of the 3rd beast], when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up [Antiochus Epiphanes lV].

6.4: The Hellenistic Era

human.libretexts.org

Spiritually, indeed it does [through Jesus]. But in "type and antitype", both physically and figuratively, of which WAS all played out on earth beforehand, through Antiochus Epiphanes [the desolator] and Judas Maccabeus [the restorer] within the prophecy of the 2300 days. Dan 12:11-13, all of which was then literally fulfilled through Epiphanes and Maccabeus.

Figuratively speaking however, that all points to the prophecy of Zech. 4:14- "the two anointed ones", being that of the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus. Israel, committed the "abomination" of "shedding innocent blood" (1260-1290 days, all within the 2300).
Then following the 1290, is *45 days later, which was when the Day of Pentecost was fulfilled, as foretold in Dan. 12
[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety [1290] days.
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days. See Acts 1:1-9.

No, it had to do with that of Antiochus Epiphanes, during the 1290 days, within the 2300 days.
The math is all there in 1&2 Maccabees, when one takes the time to study it. However, that literal prophecy has been fulfilled, and therefore once prophecy has been fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled again!! Therefore In typology, Jesus used it to show how it applied to Himself, even as He did the same with "Jonah and the whale", using both as signs.

See my recent explanation above.

Sadly, you are extremely mistaken.

I'm not trying to. The Ten horns are indeed Europe/NATO of today, as shown in king Neb's dream of the image/statue. However, the specific 10 appointed with the beast, are not yet known.

Agreed! Historically, the countries of Europe
exist, but who the ten are NOW, have not been appointed YET.

You are not understanding the meaning of the word "waxed" in that verse from the KJV. (ie. The phases of the moon "waxes" to be full, and then "wanes" to be less full).

12. Yes, I agree. But ever since 70AD, the future of "the beast with 10 horns" has been EVOLVING, down through years, as shown in king Neb's dream of the image/statue.

Amen!!

Look prophecy isn't that hard:

Daniel 2:
Babylon (gold head)
MP (silver chest/arms)
Greece (brass belly/thighs)
Rome (iron legs)
Ten Barbarian nations which became Europe (iron/clay feet and ten toes)

Daniel 7:
Babylon (2 winged Lion)
MP (lopsided bear, 3 ribs: Lydia, Egypt, Babylon)
Greece (4 winged, 4 headed leopard)
Rome (iron teeth beast, exceeding strong)
Ten barbarian nations which became Europe (ten divisions of the iron teeth beast)
Papacy (Little Horn/Antichrist/Man of Sin/Whore of Babylon/1st Beast that arose among the ten divisions)

Protestant Historicism traces each kingdom successively down the prophetic timeline in order, matching up the prophetic details with the order of kingdoms.

Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism was invented so papists could divert the attention of those who correctly understand Bible prophecy identifies the papacy as antichrist, not so that non-catholics could join in helping them push their square pegs in round holes!

 

[Earburner]

Look prophecy isn't that hard:

Daniel 2:
Babylon (gold head)
MP (silver chest/arms)
Greece (brass belly/thighs)
Rome (iron legs)
Ten Barbarian nations which became Europe (iron/clay feet and ten toes)

Daniel 7:
Babylon (2 winged Lion)
MP (lopsided bear, 3 ribs: Lydia, Egypt, Babylon)
Greece (4 winged, 4 headed leopard)
Rome (iron teeth beast, exceeding strong)
Ten barbarian nations which became Europe (ten divisions of the iron teeth beast)
Papacy (Little Horn/Antichrist/Man of Sin/Whore of Babylon/1st Beast that arose among the ten divisions)

Protestant Historicism traces each kingdom successively down the prophetic timeline in order, matching up the prophetic details with the order of kingdoms.

Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism was invented so papists could divert the attention of those who correctly understand Bible prophecy identifies the papacy as antichrist, not so that non-catholics could join in helping them push their square pegs in round holes!

The "little horn" rose out of the 3rd beast, NOT the 4th beast, and is historically known as Antiochus Epiphanes lV.
Most all of "church-ianity" has misconstrued that one simple fact from Daniel, and are all off on a religious tangent of science fiction.

Except for your mentioning, of the legs of iron in Neb's statue, you have not accounted for The Roman Empire being divided into two empires, being that of the Eastern (Constantinople) and Western (Rome) empires. Instead, you rush past it, head long into the Papacy, calling it "The Antichrist", when there are no such words strung together in all of the KJV Bible, saying the words: "The Antichrist".

But, there is "that [singular] spirit OF antichrist", that seeks to infect all unsaved people, whereby there are MANY antichrists, being the "son(s) of perdition" (destruction), so says 1 John 2:18.

Since Judas Iscarriot was not the only one named as "the son of perdition" (John 17:12), and there is mentioned in reference to another/others to come, being also "the son of perdition" (2 Thes. 2:3), then yes, now there is the issue of plurality, as the context of 2 Thes. 2:1-12 most surely reveals.

When one fully and correctly examines the context of 2 Thes. 2:1-12 in the Textus Receptus Greek, all of it is to be understood in the plural. There are many who are "lawless", who are of "that [singular] spirit of antichrist", being they who are "the natural man", each being "the man of sin", "the son of perdition".

As for "the whore of Babylon", you have pegged the wrong "mother", of the only two that are prophesied of in the NT scriptures.
Clue: one is Heavenly Jerusalem, but the other "is fallen".

 

[Phoneman777]

The "little horn" rose out of the 3rd beast, NOT the 4th beast, and is historically known as Antiochus Epiphanes lV.
Most all of "church-ianity" has misconstrued that one simple fact from Daniel, and are all off on a religious tangent of science fiction.

Except for your oversight, of the two legs of iron in Neb's statue, you have not accounted for The Roman Empire being divided into two empires, being that of the Eastern (Constantinople) and Western (Rome) empires. Instead, you rush past it, head long into the Papacy, calling it "The Antichrist", when there are no such words strung together in all of the KJV Bible, saying the words: "The Antichrist".

But, there is "that [singular] spirit OF antichrist", that seeks to infect all unsaved people, whereby there are MANY antichrists, being the "son(s) of perdition" (destruction), so says 1 John 2:18.

Since Judas Iscarriot was not the only one named as "the son of perdition" (John 17:12), and there is mentioned in reference to another/others to come, being also "the son of perdition" (2 Thes. 2:3), then yes, now there is the issue of plurality, as the context of 2 Thes. 2:1-12 most surely reveals.

When one fully and correctly examines the context of 2 Thes. 2:1-12 in the Textus Receptus Greek, all of it is to be understood in the plural. There are many who are "lawless", who are of "that [singular] spirit of antichrist", being they who are "the natural man", each being "the man of sin", "the son of perdition".

Daniel 2:
>"thou art this head of gold" = Babylon (Gold most valuable)

>"after you shall arise another kingdom - inferior" = MP (silver is less valuable but stronger than gold)

>"and a third kingdom of brass" = Greece (brass is less valuable but stronger than silver)

>"and a fourth kingdom of iron" = Rome (iron is less valuable but stronger than brass)

>"feet and ten toes of iron mixed with clay" = Ten Barbarian tribes which evolved into Europe which were the result of a "divided" fourth kingdom, and were "partly strong and partly weak" in their projection of power over the centuries, and remain permanently divided though history shows they "mingled themselves" in marriages in an attempt to weld everything back into one.

Any interpretation of the chapters of Daniel or Revelation that doesn't follow
God's prophetic template in Daniel 2 is a big fat waste of time, friend.​

Therefore, the Ten Toes that follow the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 2 are the Ten Horns that follow the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 7 - and the papacy arose from them as the Antichrist.

 

[Phoneman777]

(An edit of item #12 for my post #385*):
"Yes, I agree. But ever since 70AD, the future of "the beast with 10 horns" has been EVOLVING, down through years, as shown in king Neb's dream of the image/statue".

*Edit: We can see that prophetic "evolving" taking place in Rev. 13:1-10.
The correct understanding of who the SEVEN heads ARE:
Rev. 13
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having  SEVEN heads** and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his HEADS the NAME of blasphemy.
[2] And the Sea beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, [3rd beast), and his feet were as the feet of a bear [2nd beast], and his mouth as the mouth of a lion [1st beast]: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
10H Sea beast= 1 head of itself.
Leopard = 4 heads.
Bear= 1 head.
Lion= 1 head.
All totaling to be the SEVEN heads on the evolved "Sea beast, having 10H" of Rev.

The "Roman Republic" began in Daniel (509 BC), but had now become the Sea beast of the "Roman Empire" in 27 BC.

2B Cont'd.

I've never seen such a convoluted eschatological mess.

Just follow the Daniel 2 template and away with this unnecessary sensationalism!

 

[ewq1938]

The "little horn" rose out of the 3rd beast, NOT the 4th beast

Wrong. Daniel said the little horn grew from the same 4th beast that had ten horns.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

 

[Earburner]

Daniel 2:
>"thou art this head of gold" = Babylon (Gold most valuable)

>"after you shall arise another kingdom - inferior" = MP (silver is less valuable but stronger than gold)

>"and a third kingdom of brass" = Greece (brass is less valuable but stronger than silver)

>"and a fourth kingdom of iron" = Rome (iron is less valuable but stronger than brass)

>"feet and ten toes of iron mixed with clay" = Ten Barbarian tribes which evolved into Europe which were the result of a "divided" fourth kingdom, and were "partly strong and partly weak" in their projection of power over the centuries, and remain permanently divided though history shows they "mingled themselves" in marriages in an attempt to weld everything back into one.

Any interpretation of the chapters of Daniel or Revelation that doesn't follow
God's prophetic template in Daniel 2 is a big fat waste of time, friend.​

Therefore, the Ten Toes that follow the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 2 are the Ten Horns that follow the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 7 - and the papacy arose from them as the Antichrist.

Again, the words: "The Antichrist" do not appear in the KJV.

Your "template" is gone awry with the ten horns/toes. All they are or ever will be, are 10 future European countries that get appointed [crowned] "for one hour" by the Sea beast, to make war (Armageddon) against the Lamb, upon His Glorious return.

That "Sea beast" today, has evolved into a Global Economic Empire, of which has no country, military or borders of its own. So therefore, quite literally, no one can make war with him [against it], which will be the originator of the "MoB", by the use of invisible "Digital currency"
Rev. 14
[4] And they [Global elite] worshipped the dragon [Luciferian doctrine] which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[Phoneman777]

Again, the words: "The Antichrist" do not appear in the KJV.

It's found 3 times in 1 John and once in 2 John, right?

Your "template" is gone awry with the ten horns/toes. All they are or ever will be, are 10 future European countries that get appointed [crowned] "for one hour" by the Sea beast, to make war (Armageddon) against the Lamb, upon His Glorious return.

We've identified your problem:
"inconsistent interpretation of Daniel's prophetic timeline template"

1) You claim Daniel's Ten Horns are identical to Revelation's Ten Horns and insert a 1600+ year "gap" between Rome and both of the Ten Horns - which is completely inconsistent with Daniel 2 which has the Barbarian Ten Toes immediately following the Roman legs of iron.

2) You ignore what even secular historians recognize: that Ten Barbarian Tribes arose immediately after Rome fell, with the papacy rising after them and uprooting 3 which opposed it:

Saxons = England
Allemani = Germany
Visigoths = Spain
Suevi = Portugal
Lombards = Italy
Francs = France
Burgundians = Swiss

Vandals = Extinct via papacy
Heruli = Extinct via papacy
Ostrogoths = Extinct via papacy

So, thank you for discussing the issue with me, but though I agree that the Ten Horns of Revelation are some yet unrealized NWO "Ten Regions of Control" which will be under papal control, of course, I'll have to withdraw because of your inconsistent treatment of Daniel is why you look behind Pagan Rome for the Little Horn instead of looking in front of it to Papal Rome.

 

[Earburner]

I've never seen such a convoluted eschatological mess.

Just follow the Daniel 2 template and away with this unnecessary sensationalism!

Well, since you are determined to throw templates around, let's get to the one that matters.
So, instead of me trying to prove from out of the ancient past about who the "little horn" was, I am going to point to God's template, that is present in the world today, and then allow you to tell me who you think it is that doesn't measure up to the template, that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh", thus concluding that they are of that spirit of antichrist".
1John.4
[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John.1
[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Earburner]

It's found 3 times in 1 John and once in 2 John, right?

Correct!
So then according to you, how does the RCC Papacy measure up to that template of 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7?

We've identified your problem:
"inconsistent interpretation of Daniel's prophetic timeline template"

1) You claim Daniel's Ten Horns are identical to Revelation's Ten Horns and insert a 1600+ year "gap" between Rome and both of the Ten Horns - which is completely inconsistent with Daniel 2 which has the Barbarian Ten Toes immediately following the Roman legs of iron.

2) You ignore what even secular historians recognize: that Ten Barbarian Tribes arose immediately after Rome fell, with the papacy rising after them and uprooting 3 which opposed it:

Saxons = England
Allemani = Germany
Visigoths = Spain
Suevi = Portugal
Lombards = Italy
Francs = France
Burgundians = Swiss

Vandals = Extinct via papacy
Heruli = Extinct via papacy
Ostrogoths = Extinct via papacy

So, thank you for discussing the issue with me, but though I agree that the Ten Horns of Revelation are some yet unrealized NWO "Ten Regions of Control" which will be under papal control, of course, I'll have to withdraw because of your inconsistent treatment of Daniel is why you look behind Pagan Rome for the Little Horn instead of looking in front of it to Papal Rome.

If you look in my recent past posts, I agreed with all of that history, except your view about who the ten horns were, and that the papacy is antichrist. Granted, the ten horns have been with us since the dispersion of the Roman Empire, being that of Europe. However, to this day, no one knows who they are prophetically, because they have not yet been appointed (crowned) by the Sea beast, which is now in it's very final stage of it's evolving/developing.

 

[Earburner]

Hmmm....so now I present the "template" that matters, in post #394, and now suddenly you are ready to bow out of the discussion.
Why?
Because, you would have to admit that the RCC and the Papacy ARE NOT "of that spirit of antichrist".

 

[Earburner]

Wrong. Daniel said the little horn grew from the same 4th beast that had ten horns.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

First and foremost, let's get this straight: the whore is NOT the 10 horn beast, nor is the 10 horn beast the whore.
So then, whatever you think the Sea beast is, IT IS ALSO NOT Europe.
However, the 10 horn beast does "carry" the whore, which reveals that it is the beast that is in control of the whore.
Let that sink in.

According to your thinking, you have it that the 10 horn beast and the whore are one in the same entity. That is not scriptural, not to mention the fact that you have hooked up with the wrong woman in the first place.
Gal. 4:21-24.

If you would only read, study and digest 1&2 Maccabees, you would understand the meaning of the verses you hi-lited in Red:
"came up among them another little horn".
"the other which came up".
"another shall rise after them".
Which is to say that the little horn (Epiphanes) rose up in the time of the tribal 10 horns, but he himself was NOT OF THEM, but rather was of the 3rd beast.

Did you know that because of Antiochus Epiphanes' father's sour relationship with the Romans, Epiphanes as a young man, was held as a hostage, while the Romans were still only a republic (not yet world ruling). 1 Mac. 1:10.

I never denied the history of the 10 horns, and how they became Europe.
However, what I do deny, is your erroneous conviction that the little horn is the papacy, of which you think has been and still is what "church-ianity" calls it "The Antichrist".
Granted, that may become TRUE, after the time of the "falling away".
During that time, the papacy may then become decieved by "that spirit of antichrist" also. But until then, it is NOT "of that spirit of antichrist".

Before Epiphanes came to power within the 3rd beast, the ten horns/tribes in the 4th beast's head were 10 tribes only known of by God. Those ten horns would not be fully manifested in time, until just before the glorious return of Jesus.

So then, to surmise who the ten horns are NOW, is still only an assumption, based on the historical knowledge of men, of which some pertinent FACTUAL records are "discarded", SUCH AS the books of 1&2 Maccabees.

Rev. 17
[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour  WITH the beast.
[13] These [ten] have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

[14] These shall make war with [against] the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
> Which is the sudden and Glorious return of the Lord Jesus from heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

First and foremost, let's get this straight: the whore is NOT the 10 horn beast, nor is the 10 horn beast the whore.

No one believes that making that a strawman fallacy.

 

[Phoneman777]

[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John.1
[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Without looking it up, tell me what is meant by the "doctrine of the Immaculate Conception".

 

[Phoneman777]

Correct!
So then according to you, how does the RCC Papacy measure up to that template of 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7?

Here's a prime example for why we ought not oppose what we don't fully understand, lest we oppose truth.

Of course, the papacy denies Jesus has come in the flesh, and if you knew how they did it, you'd understand why they claim no Christian can go directly to God's throne without papal intercessors.

However, to this day, no one knows who they are prophetically, because they have not yet been appointed (crowned) by the Sea beast, which is now in it's very final stage of it's evolving/developing.

When John wrote Revelation, Revelation 13 and 17 were still future prophecies, so "shall receive power one hour with the beast" can easily be fulfilled with the rise of the papacy in 538 A.D.

The Ten Horns were to receive power "for one hour with the Beast" - but the Greek "ora" also means "era" or "during the 1,260 days". Yes, three of the barbarian "horns" were uprooted for refusing to yield their reign to papal reign, but as the years rolled by, other tribes came in to make up the deficit and the political landscape may have changed, but there was no fifth world empire: the divisions of fallen Pagan Rome ruled alongside Papal Rome "for one era".