Righteousness and Holiness

[CharismaticLady]

Now that I figured out what went wrong in our conversation, I hope you will be back.
I am trying to reconcile my own experience with yours which is probably nuts, but I think I’m doing so to make sure that I never, never make someone sad or discouraged God doesn’t want to be sad or discouraged.

You put the word trusted in quotes, so I’m thinking that means you are saying you didn’t really trust. I would like to know if that was truly, truly the case or if your trust was still just very small and weak. Did you struggle in trust those 30 years? Did you read your bible ever or get little understandings? Did you ever pray or talk to God in those 30 years? Did you ever sense His presence in any way those years?

First 23 years I was a Seventh-day Adventist. I never lied to my parents, or stole anything, but I would go to movies, watch TV on the Sabbath, play cards and dance, and ate bacon if I got the chance. I always felt a sinner, and kept my secrets - always feeling "if they only knew." I once ran into another SDA from my church at the movies, we looked at each other, turned around and ran away from each other. I always knew about God and Jesus and loved them, but feared them. I trusted in the knowledge that they were the only path to heaven. But I was young and felt I still had time before He came to get it together. I even got pregnant at 20 yrs old during that time, though had a miscarriage at 4.5 months. If I lost something, I would always pray to find it and not one prayer was ever answered. I began to wonder if God really existed, but would rather believe in "Christianity" than to be an "Agnostic." As far as the Bible, I knew it well enough to argue for the Sabbath, even if I didn't keep it.

At 23 I became engaged to a Nashville recording artist who was Church of Christ. I didn't want to finally get married until we were both the same denomination, but he couldn't debate. (that alone should have warned me that we weren't suited. Hot and Cold go together, but not Hot and Lukewarm) So one night he called Ray Walker, bass singer of the Jordanaires, and asked him if he would talk to me about the CoC. Ray and I debated and went through the Scriptures from around midnight to 4 am. and that's when I "got it." It was a light bulb went on over my head in those cartoons. Grace. So I left the SDA denomination totally shocked that they didn't have "the Truth." But that opened my mind to never be closed minded ever again. We got married, and divorced 5 years later. But during that time, a year after learning about grace, though the wrong definition, while we were "on the road" I debated with a Pentecostal woman in Alabama in 1971 about the gifts of the Spirit. We wrote to each other and my letter brought up that tongues had ceased when the perfect (the compiled Bible) came. But then I read to the end of the chapter to see what else I could show her, and another light bulb came on. They didn't end until we saw Him FACE TO FACE. Again, I was shocked having been raised Cessationist. So open minded as I was, I told my husband and we actually found a Church of Christ that believed in the gifts of the Spirit, Belmont Church of Christ in Nashville. (They were finally disfellowshipped when they finally allowed musical instruments, and is now just Belmont.) Two years later we divorced while living in Los Angeles. When we moved to L. A. we didn't really go to church anywhere.

A couple months after the divorce I started working in Beverly Hills, and a few months later was having an affair with my married, Jewish boss. A long story later (in my Testimony if you want to read it I'll pm you) I got filled with the Spirit in 1977, and all my desire for sin lifted off me. And a hunger for God so powerful came into me, and never again did I ever wonder if God existed. Now I knew and wanted to serve Him for the rest of my life. I was literally, not theologically, born again with a new nature.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thanks for sharing that. If you can accept it, He does not do everything in the same way for everyone. They don’t all have the same exact road but He gets them to the same places, as can be seen by us both receiving a grace so similar it has to be the same...place, and as you can see by my story, He brought me along by trust. I am aware of when I received His Spirit, or some down payment thereof. It was unmistakably Him and I knew He was in me. But that was long before the calming of my passions or your “no desire to sin.”

I don’t know that any true damage would have been done to me to be told I was not saved if I ever sinned because I had His Spirit, or some portion thereof, and I darn well knew it. But there are some who are being led by trust only and are not super aware yet, tangibly, that God is in them. I think they would or could be harmed or held back from growing in trust and have more agonies than are necessary for them if they were told they aren’t saved if they struggle with trust and a sin or sins that easily besets them. It seems there must be more care taken about this, from what I have seen, if they were greatly abused in childhood and trust comes so much harder for them.

I don’t know if you can accept that some are given a down payment and walk for some time being practiced in trust before God gives them a greater measure, but it is them I care for and want no unnecessary added agony for.

 

[Riverwalker]

If one has concluded that God has had a change of mind in how he runs the show anytime in his governance one hasn't understood the unchangeable nature of God.

The ONLY thing that has ever changed is OUR relationship with God. Through the cross a way was made that changed us from servants to Sons and Daughters Of God

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

I would suggest that the carnal man cannot understand the inherent beauty in righteousness or holiness except to stay away from it; to feel threatened by it and to formulate theories which gives, at least in their own mind, impunity.

Is there no redemption? is there no new creation? Have we not been born again? With God Himself (The Holy Spirit) dwelling in us , guiding use, teaching us?

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Thanks for sharing that. If you can accept it, He does not do everything in the same way for everyone. They don’t all have the same exact road but He gets them to the same places, as can be seen by us both receiving a grace so similar it has to be the same...place, and as you can see by my story, He brought me along by trust. I am aware of when I received His Spirit, or some down payment thereof. It was unmistakably Him and I knew He was in me. But that was long before the calming of my passions or your “no desire to sin.”

I don’t know that any true damage would have been done to me to be told I was not saved if I ever sinned because I had His Spirit, or some portion thereof, and I darn well knew it. But there are some who are being led by trust only and are not super aware yet, tangibly, that God is in them. I think they would or could be harmed or held back from growing in trust and have more agonies than are necessary for them if they were told they aren’t saved if they struggle with trust and a sin or sins that easily besets them. It seems there must be more care taken about this, from what I have seen, if they were greatly abused in childhood and trust comes so much harder for them.

I don’t know if you can accept that some are given a down payment and walk for some time being practiced in trust before God gives them a greater measure, but it is them I care for and want no unnecessary added agony for.

I know that I would have gone to hell if I had died during those first 30 years going to church most of the time. Do you really believe it is better to be an enemy with kisses, than a friend with the hurtful Truth? Paul didn't mince words. I would rather tell them what they must do now to be saved. The person struggling with sin and knows it is in the best place to be honest with God and be given the life changing Spirit if they truly want to serve God, but are just too weak so ask God to change them. They know they cannot be righteous without God. They just have to give up and cry out to God. God's Spirit will give them all the power they need becoming born again and free from sin.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I know that I would have gone to hell if I had died during those first 30 years going to church most of the time. Do you really believe it is better to be an enemy with kisses, than a friend with the hurtful Truth? Paul didn't mince words. I would rather tell them what they must do now to be saved. The person struggling with sin and knows it is in the best place to be honest with God and be given the life changing Spirit if they truly want to serve God, but are just too weak. God's Spirit will give them all the power they need becoming born again and free from sin.

Okay, so you cannot accept that some are given a lesser fullness of the Spirit and are allowed to struggle in trust and with sin for a bit. (Knowing how arrogant I was, I have suspicion He sometimes leads us that way because our arrogance and pride would make us even more unpliable and unbendable if we received too much good from Him in one spectacular moment.)

But at least you gave me your ear for a bit. I can’t ask for more from anyone. So thank you for that.

I just want to give a verse that might strengthen someone else.
In his kindness God called you to share in his eternal glory by means of Christ Jesus. So after you have suffered a little while, he will restore, support, and strengthen you, and he will place you on a firm foundation.

I can attest that this verse is true and the way to it is radical, radical trust, even if you think sometimes you must be the fool others think you are.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Okay, so you cannot accept that some are given a lesser fullness of the Spirit and are allowed to struggle in trust and with sin for a bit. (Knowing how arrogant I was, I have suspicion He sometimes leads us that way because our arrogance and pride would make us even more unpliable and unbendable if we received too much good from Him in one spectacular moment.)

But at least you gave me your ear for a bit. I can’t ask for more from anyone. So thank you for that.

I just want to give a verse that might strengthen someone else.
In his kindness God called you to share in his eternal glory by means of Christ Jesus. So after you have suffered a little while, he will restore, support, and strengthen you, and he will place you on a firm foundation.

I can attest that this verse is true and the way to it is radical, radical trust, even if you think sometimes you must be the fool others think you are.

Yes, I cannot accept a myth. There is no struggle with the Spirit. That's the point. The Spirit can be drawing them, but not be in them. The Spirit must be in them to be saved. Romans 8:9

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s enough. Thanks for the chat.

 

[Riverwalker]

Okay, so you cannot accept that some are given a lesser fullness of the Spirit and are allowed to struggle in trust and with sin for a bit.

These things are not connected,
Yes God allows us to go through trials. as they help us to mature
But that is a case where the Spirit is the strongest and the grace is more needed

God does not let us go through trials and pull back his Holy Spirit to punish us, but rather to teach us

James 2:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing

 

[amadeus]

Something @stunnedbygrace wrote, gave me the idea to ask this . . .

Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature.

Do you agree? Disagree?

This is something I'd like to talk about, and hear other's thoughts.

Much love!

All of the children of Israel following Moses out of Egypt through the Red Sea were set apart [Holy] by God from Pharaoh and his armies, but only Caleb and Joshua were also righteous so as to continue on in to the Promised Land!

 

[CharismaticLady]

It’s enough. Thanks for the chat.

sbg, You and I are God's beloved. I respect you and your heart. To the Church age of Laodecia, God would want us to be Hot or Cold, but the Lukewarm (which seems to be most of the Church today) He will spew out of His mouth. I am Hot. You are Cold. We have different gifts and offices in the Church. You being Cold are like a refreshing drink of cold water on a blistering day. You have compassion and encouragement. I'm sure you are well liked. I on the other hand must have a thick skin for I am Hot, and like Paul, have many thorns in my side, messengers of satan and not just on the forums. I know that time is short prophetic wise, and there is no time for just allowing people to bide their time being drawn by the Spirit, when they must surrender now, and give up trying to be good enough on their own. It can't be done, and no amount of waiting and compassionate patience is going to make them stronger. But that is needed so as you say they won't despair. But I must take that opportunity of them coming to the end of themselves and tell them to give up trying. God is so strong, and His Spirit has been sent to indwell us giving us Divine Power called Grace, the true definition. All those struggling must do is have integrity of heart - be honest about their powerlessness to be righteous. They can't really trust God because He seems so far away with His back to them. They have two choices. Find a lukewarm teacher that will tell them they are already saved so not to worry; or cry out to God to be strong inside them, for they can do nothing without Him taking over their entire lives. And He will. That's all He's been waiting for. A humble and contrite spirit in which to dwell. When they experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit's power, they will no longer wonder if God is real like I did, or has His back to them. They will be so in love with God, they won't be able to go a day without praising Him from the rooftops in comparison with the despair and memory of their past struggle which is now gloriously gone forever. Now God will finish what they have begun together, abiding in one another.

 

[Not me]

Something @stunnedbygrace wrote, gave me the idea to ask this . . .

Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature.

Do you agree? Disagree?

This is something I'd like to talk about, and hear other's thoughts.

Much love!

Greeting one much beloved by God! :)

I like to put forth the thought that both words are pointing at the same truth.. Which is both words describing a thing that is free from all disorder.

Is it not true there is no disorder in Holiness? Is it also not true there is no disorder in Righteousness?

As it is true there is no disorder in God.. God Himself being that Being that is free from all disorder...

Be blessed in your comtimplateing of Him...

A friend and fellow believer, Not me

 

[stunnedbygrace]

sbg, You and I are God's beloved. I respect you and your heart. To the Church age of Laodecia, God would want us to be Hot or Cold, but the Lukewarm (which seems to be most of the Church today) He will spew out of His mouth. I am Hot. You are Cold. We have different gifts and offices in the Church. You being Cold are like a refreshing drink of cold water on a blistering day. You have compassion and encouragement. I'm sure you are well liked. I on the other hand must have a thick skin for I am Hot, and like Paul, have many thorns in my side, messengers of satan and not just on the forums. I know that time is short prophetic wise, and there is no time for just allowing people to bide their time being drawn by the Spirit, when they must surrender now, and give up trying to be good enough on their own. It can't be done, and no amount of waiting and compassionate patience is going to make them stronger. But that is needed so as you say they won't despair. But I must take that opportunity of them coming to the end of themselves and tell them to give up trying. God is so strong, and His Spirit has been sent to indwell us giving us Divine Power called Grace, the true definition. All those struggling must do is have integrity of heart - be honest about their powerlessness to be righteous. They can't really trust God because He seems so far away with His back to them. They have two choices. Find a lukewarm teacher that will tell them they are already saved so not to worry; or cry out to God to be strong inside them, for they can do nothing without Him taking over their entire lives. And He will. That's all He's been waiting for. A humble and contrite spirit in which to dwell. When they experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit's power, they will no longer wonder if God is real like I did, or has His back to them. They will be so in love with God, they won't be able to go a day without praising Him from the rooftops in comparison with the despair and memory of their past struggle which is now gloriously gone forever. Now God will finish what they have begun together, abiding in one another.

Anyone who sets out with the purpose of striving to build up and strengthen trust of God in others will be well liked by those struggling to get to that complete trust and will be hated by those who haven’t yet got to that struggle and still think they can help God to birth the child of promise. But it should not be of any concern to them if they are well liked or not.

There is really no other way to help a man other than to help build up his trust. But you also do have to wait because we are all like a wild animal with its foot caught in a trap. The animal will NOT stop striving to free itself, no matter how much you shout to it to give up trying so you can reach the release to set it free. It must wear itself out until it has no strength to struggle any more. The animal is trying to save its life. It never enters its mind that if it ceased all trying it could be immediately free and it’s panic is too great to do otherwise. To be effective in freeing a wild animal from a trap without getting torn to shreds yourself, you HAVE to wait until it goes over on its side in exhaustion and shock and cannot raise itself. If you try to do it before that, you will be ineffective, bloodied and in need of medical attention yourself.

The animal has to give up its life to find it.
Cease all striving and know that I am God.

 

[Not me]

Anyone who sets out with the purpose of striving to build up and strengthen trust of God in others will be well liked by those struggling to get to that complete trust and will be hated by those who haven’t yet got to that struggle and still think they can help God to birth the child of promise. But it should not be of any concern to them if they are well liked or not.

There is really no other way to help a man other than to help build up his trust. But you also do have to wait because we are all like a wild animal with its foot caught in a trap. The animal will NOT stop striving to free itself, no matter how much you shout to it to give up trying so you can reach the release to set it free. It must wear itself out until it has no strength to struggle any more. The animal is trying to save its life. It never enters its mind that if it ceased all trying it could be immediately free and it’s panic is too great to do otherwise. To be effective in freeing a wild animal from a trap without getting torn to shreds yourself, you HAVE to wait until it goes over on its side in exhaustion and shock and cannot raise itself. If you try to do it before that, you will be ineffective, bloodied and in need of medical attention yourself.

The animal has to give up its life to find it.
Cease all striving and know that I am God.

Very nice, be blessed in these truths revealed in you... :)

A fellow believer, Not me

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Something @stunnedbygrace wrote, gave me the idea to ask this . . .

Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature.

Do you agree? Disagree?

This is something I'd like to talk about, and hear other's thoughts.

Much love!

Never thought of it that way. Our state and nature are sometimes different. People know a person to be basically good, warm, loving, kind and generous naturally. But then something happens, his daughter is struck by a drunk driver, a hit and run. He is now in the state of anger, hate and wants to kill the guy. Our state changes.
But righteousness is not our righteousness, it is Christ's imputed to us. We wear His righteousness. Furthermore, we dont make ourselves holy, God makes us holy.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Anyone who sets out with the purpose of striving to build up and strengthen trust of God in others will be well liked by those struggling to get to that complete trust and will be hated by those who haven’t yet got to that struggle and still think they can help God to birth the child of promise. But it should not be of any concern to them if they are well liked or not.

There is really no other way to help a man other than to help build up his trust. But you also do have to wait because we are all like a wild animal with its foot caught in a trap. The animal will NOT stop striving to free itself, no matter how much you shout to it to give up trying so you can reach the release to set it free. It must wear itself out until it has no strength to struggle any more. The animal is trying to save its life. It never enters its mind that if it ceased all trying it could be immediately free and it’s panic is too great to do otherwise. To be effective in freeing a wild animal from a trap without getting torn to shreds yourself, you HAVE to wait until it goes over on its side in exhaustion and shock and cannot raise itself. If you try to do it before that, you will be ineffective, bloodied and in need of medical attention yourself.

The animal has to give up its life to find it.
Cease all striving and know that I am God.

Stay cold always. But we can't all be cold.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Stay cold always. But we can't all be cold.

Are you sure you have a good understanding of that verse? It seems to me you think cold is very good. I think hot is very good, cold is not good, but lukewarm is the very worst and will suffer the worst fate.

I have thought He was saying...I can obviously do something with hot water, I can have a chance to make completely cold water into hot, but lukewarm water is friendship with the world, trying to have both the world and me, and it’s useless water.

 

[Gary Urban]

Are you sure you have a good understanding of that verse? It seems to me you think cold is very good. I think hot is very good, cold is not good, but lukewarm is the very worst and will suffer the worst fate.

I have thought He was saying...I can obviously do something with hot water, I can have a chance to make completely cold water into hot, but lukewarm water is friendship with the world, trying to have both the world and me, and it’s useless water.

I would think it is indicating to pray without ceaising whether we are up on top of things or down .

 

[CharismaticLady]

Are you sure you have a good understanding of that verse? It seems to me you think cold is very good. I think hot is very good, cold is not good, but lukewarm is the very worst and will suffer the worst fate.

I have thought He was saying...I can obviously do something with hot water, I can have a chance to make completely cold water into hot, but lukewarm water is friendship with the world, trying to have both the world and me, and it’s useless water.

Why would God want us to be hot or COLD? It certainly is not a bad thing for Him to wish upon us. In the area of Laodecia there is something like an aqueduct that starts with cold refreshing water, but as it passes through the downhill aqueduct for some time it becomes lukewarm and no longer refreshing. In Scripture we must always find out what God means, not base our understanding on what man thinks, such as "cold-hearted." God means refreshing. In the case of this last church age, lukewarm could mean they have lost their first love as in the first century age of Ephesus, or that their commitment and knowledge could only be partial, just enough for them to believe they don't need anything further, that they are saved and nothing can take them out of God's hand. A common, but deadly error.

Acts 3:19
Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;