Why Can't Everyone Come To Christ?

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TexUs

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We've seen the atonement, the cross of Christ, was only intended for a few. See my earlier post.
We've seen that only those whose hearts God has worked in, can come to Christ. See my earlier post.
So this is a part 3, of sorts, though each topic can be taken stand-alone- which is why I broke them up.

Now, I will address the "why?". Why can't everyone come to Christ? Why is it, that we can only come to Christ if it's God's work in our hearts?
This one is fairly short and simple because this is repeated over and over and over again through scripture and the idea is pretty simple.

The answer is because we are described as spiritually dead and spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 2:1, "You were dead in your transgressions and sins."
Romans 7:24, "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?"

1 Corinthians 2:14; “The man without the Sprit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolish to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are
spiritually discerned.”
Mankind has a pretty bleak outlook. Paul encompasses all of mankind in 1 Corinthians because we all, at some point, lacking the Spirit of God. Spiritual things are foolish to all people, according to Paul. Only by God's hand (see my prior posts) can light be shed in our hearts.

Now, why are we described this way? What characteristics do we posses that Paul would describe us this way?

Mark 7:21-23; “For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean’.”
Jeremiah 17:9; “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?”
So we are dead, because we are all of these adjectives describing our heart.


Righteousness had no bearing on our lives prior to the work of Christ in us.
Romans 6:20; “When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.”

We are naturally evil.


Ephesians 2:3; “All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.”
This means we aren't "naturally good". We don't posses the ability to do good. 100% of the time, we pick wrong.

We not only wage war against God, but we can't do any good. We can't submit to him. There is absolutely nothing we can do to please God.


Romans 8:7; “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.”
Ask yourself, is coming to Him pleasing to Him? Yes! But this says a sinful person cannot come to Him. Thus once more we see, the only way this happens is by God's work in our lives FIRST. He comes to US.

This idea continues all through the Bible. Once more I'll close with a verse. NO ONE can seek God. HE seeks US.


Romans 3:11; “There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.”
 

Robbie

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"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Not sure if this relates to what you're saying ^^^

But I had a lot of people back in the day teach me that this means God is in some way making people like Jesus... like, "I'm gonna make this one hate Jesus and this one like Him"

But now what I believe it means comes with the understanding that the Father is in Him...

So basically nobody comes to Jesus unless they are attracted to the Father in Him... or you can say... nobody comes to Jesus unless the Father in Him draws them... that's what was trippy about the Pharisses... they were the greatest boasters about loving God... but it was obvious they didn't love God because if anyone is attracted to God they'll be drawn to Jesus because they'll be drawn to the Father in Him... and if anyone rejects Jesus they're rejecting God... because the Father is in Jesus... and He's the perfect revelation of Him...

You can reject anything anything but the Spirit that is in Jesus... because the Spirit that is in Jesus is the Father...

In that day we know the Father is in Him, and Him in us, and we're all one...

Hope this blesses...
 

TexUs

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"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Not sure if this relates to what you're saying ^^^
Yeah, I've got another thread that relates to this better, but all three topics go hand in hand so some overflow will happen.

But I had a lot of people back in the day teach me that this means God is in some way making people like Jesus... like, "I'm gonna make this one hate Jesus and this one like Him"
Everyone hates God (all three persons). Just look at what I posted. Nobody can seek. It's foolish to them.
God reaches into their hearts and pulls them unto himself- HE gives them the light.

This is the entire concept of total depravity. We are ALL, at our natural state, in hell (or destined for it). God, by his Grace, pulls us out unto himself.

The error, and which is what you (and I as well) used to think is that everyone starts out in heaven or even on a middle ground (which supposes there is natural good- and as I just posted, the Bible says there's not) and God kicks them down into hell. That's not true. We are all evil, we are all depraved, we are all headed for hell. God is the one that reaches out to us and pulls us from it.

Many people (I was one of them, at one time) object to that and think it's a mean God that's Sovereign over literally EVERYTHING but in fact this enhances and shows us the great grace he's given us.

There's nothing our natural selves could do to save ourselves. Not a thing. And yet God pulls us unto himself. How much more amazing is that then, "I worked myself into salvation"?
In fact Paul speaks to this.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
 

Robbie

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Yeah... I just think it's simply the goodness of God that draws us to Him... the whole, "It's the goodness of God that draws us to repentance" or, "We love Him because He first loved us"

I think it's His grace that allows us to return to Him... otherwise we would just run as far away from His judgment as we could...
 

TexUs

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Yeah... I just think it's simply the goodness of God that draws us to Him...
But that's not what the Bible says happens. Otherwise if God's goodness drew people to him, everyone would come to him.
 

jiggyfly

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But that's not what the Bible says happens. Otherwise if God's goodness drew people to him, everyone would come to him.

Exactly.
cool.gif
 

Robbie

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I don't see that as true... because if you don't love good why would you be drawn to God's goodness? as a matter of fact you might think you love God's goodness but when the full revelation of God's love appears you might find out you really don't... like the pharisees...

On the other hand if you haven't had the full revelation of the truth of just how good God is you might not be drawn to Him until you come to the revelation of His love towards us that's in Christ.

I think that's clearly seen in the testaments to Jesus ... not by pulling out sentences... but by looking at the whole story of His life...

For instance many of the pharisees thought they were drawn to God but it was obvious they weren't because when the perfect revelation of the Father came they rejected Him... and hated Him... they really weren't attracted to the goodness of the Father in Jesus at all...

On the other hand there was people that were considered by those very religious leaders cursed by God and they ran to Jesus because they were drawn to the TRUE revelation of the Father...

So I don't really see it like you do...
 

TexUs

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I don't see that as true... because if you don't love good why would you be drawn to God's goodness?
Exactly. You wouldn't.




The Bible says we can't do good. If we can't do good and indeed can't even seek it: how's it possible to love good?

The natural state of a person is wholly evil, non-seeking, and self-serving. The ONLY way to break out of this is God's enablement for us to do so.
So God opens your eyes, for you to know what good is, for you to see the cross, for you to come to his Son.
 

Robbie

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I don't see us not doing good as hindering us from loving good done to us and in that yes we're self serving... if God didn't love me I wouldn't love Him... I might pretend like I did because I was afraid of Him... but I wouldn't really... a perfect revelation of His love casts out fear because fear involves torment...

I believe it's God's will that everyone should receive His love and I think whether they realize it or not they do... think of air.. everyone breathes it... I see that as receiving God's love... the sun... it shines one everyone...

I believe it's the revelation of God that's in Jesus Christ that opens our eyes... because it opens our eyes to who the Father really is... and like John said, "We love Him because He first loved us" It the revelation of His love towards us that opens our eyes to how good He really is... and that revelation is in Christ alone.

The foundation of that revelation being the Life of Jesus... if we've seen Him we've seen the Father... as well as that while we were still sinners He sent His Son to die for our sins... we love that goodness because it surpasses our own wickedness... that's why the sinners ran to the Father in Jesus because he who's forgiven much loves much... the pharisees didn't see much need for forgiveness so they were over Jesus. That's the point of the Law... realizing how far short you fall so you realize just how great the Father's love for you is...

This isn't a hard thing to understand... it's the principle of Father and child... imagine if a child thoughts it deserved its Father's love because it thought it's poop in it's diapers smelt like righteousness, and it's screaming and crying sounded like beautiful music, and that every time the parent put the spoon of food in it's mouth they were in some way responsible. So the parent created a revelation that showed that the truth is their poop stinks, their crying is annoying and painful to the ears, and they couldn't even get the food into their mouth by themselves never mind go out and earn it.... that's like the law... in it we see how worthless we are... that's the revelation of us...

Now comes the revelation of the Father and of His love... that despite our worthlessness it's our Father who decides what we're worth and He says that despite our stinky poop, and our screaming and crying, and the fact that we can't do anything for ourselves we're worth everything to Him... even the price of His Son...

That's what makes me love His Love... but yes... even in that I am self serving... which is why I say, "To Him be all the Honor, and the Power, and the Glory"

Hope this blesses you...
 

TexUs

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I don't see us not doing good as hindering us from loving good done to us
Ahhh so you see something must be done TO US first ;)


I believe it's God's will that everyone should receive His love and I think whether they realize it or not they do... think of air.. everyone breathes it... I see that as receiving God's love... the sun... it shines one everyone...
The saving love of God is a bit different than the general grace of God.
Sinners today are alive on this earth because of his general grace. He does not love them with a saving love- see my other two posts, please.

I believe it's the revelation of God that's in Jesus Christ that opens our eyes...
I agree. Who does the revealing? You just said it's the "revelation", so who does the revealing?
You continue on with this same idea. It's correct! But you still leave it at "the revelation"- you haven't tackled the underlying question of, "Who does the revealing?"

Keep in mind that Christ isn't clearly revealed as he is King of Kings to all people until Revelation (why it's so named).
 

Robbie

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Great question Texus... you know fellowship is good when it brings you to the answer of Jesus... because He is the answer... His Love and blessings...
 

242006

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The answer to the topic question is very simply -- 'free will'.

In the first age with full cognitiion as to who Satan was, 1/3 of the souls went for Satan [Rev. 12:4]. In this second age with limited ability to use our brain capacity, would one expect that 1/3 to all come to Christ?? I don't think so.

There is nothing new under the sun.
 

jiggyfly

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Like I just said, that's not what the Bible says. Please read the OP. You've once again demonstrated an uncanny ability to ignore scripture contrary to your view.



The scriptures say:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Cor. 15:22&23


For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.Romans 14:11


That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil.2: 10&11


Ofcourse I realize you don't believe those scriptures but it doesn't change what they say.





 

Nomad

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The scriptures say:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Cor. 15:22&23


For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.Romans 14:11


That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil.2: 10&11


Ofcourse I realize you don't believe those scriptures but it doesn't change what they say.


1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.


I know those who believe in universalism love to quote verse 22, but they invariably miss the import of verse 23. Who are the 'all' that die? Who are the 'all' that will be made alive? Contrary to popular belief, 'all' very rarely means every individual to ever exist without exception. 'All' is always qualified by the context in which it is used. Verse 23 does just that. It tells us very clearly who the 'all' are that will be made alive in Christ. The 'all' who will be made alive in Christ are none other than those who belong to Christ. Those who are in Christ and belong to Christ are those who put their faith in Christ. I'm sorry, but 1 Cor. 15:22 does not teach universalism.


Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



I don't know where you got the idea that only the willing will bow the knee to Christ, but Scripture simply doesn't support such an idea. Everyone will bow the knee to Christ either as savior or judge--with joy and gratitude, or in subjection and terror. All will certainly bow the knee, but not for the same reason or the same result. See examples below.


Mar 5:1 They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gerasenes.
Mar 5:2 And when Jesus had stepped out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit.
Mar 5:3 He lived among the tombs. And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain,
Mar 5:4 for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him.
Mar 5:5 Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out and cutting himself with stones.
Mar 5:6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him.
Mar 5:7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me."
Mar 5:8 For he was saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
Mar 5:9 And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He replied, "My name is Legion, for we are many."


Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
Rev 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.


I also find it amusing that you would accuse anyone of not believing Scripture. I'm still waiting for you to address the very clear statement Jesus makes in Matthew 25.


Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


This is just one more example of how Jesus is both savior and judge. Take note that those who receive judgment receive an eternal sentence.
 

jiggyfly

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1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.


I know those who believe in universalism love to quote verse 22, but they invariably miss the import of verse 23. Who are the 'all' that die? Who are the 'all' that will be made alive? Contrary to popular belief, 'all' very rarely means every individual to ever exist without exception. 'All' is always qualified by the context in which it is used. Verse 23 does just that. It tells us very clearly who the 'all' are that will be made alive in Christ. The 'all' who will be made alive in Christ are none other than those who belong to Christ. Those who are in Christ and belong to Christ are those who put their faith in Christ. I'm sorry, but 1 Cor. 15:22 does not teach universalism.




I'm sure you know about sentence structure, in this verse of scripture the "all" that are made alive in Christ are the same "all" that died in Adam.
Now verse 23 does say all those who belong to Christ, so lets look at who and what actually belongs to Christ.


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[font="'trebuchet ms"]Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through Him and for Him. Col.1:16[/font]
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Nomad

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I'm sure you know about sentence structure, in this verse of scripture the "all" that are made alive in Christ are the same "all" that died in Adam.
Now verse 23 does say all those who belong to Christ, so lets look at who and what actually belongs to Christ.



Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through Him and for Him. Col.1:16


I'm afraid your just grasping at straws now. Sentence 'structure' has nothing to do with this and neither does Colossians 1:16 which I will get to shortly.

The 'all' who die in Adam are not the same as the 'all' who are made alive in Christ. Verse 23 demonstrates this very clearly. Federal headship is Paul's point here. Everyone born into this world begins in Adam, but not not all are redeemed in Christ. Two different groups of people, each with its own federal head or representative are in view here. Colossians 1:16 doesn't change this and is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It has to do with the exaltation of Christ as the King of Kings. All things being created through Him and for Him says absolutely nothing one way or the other regarding salvation or damnation. However, Matthew 25:46 does. But you seem to be avoiding it like the plague.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
 

TexUs

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I'm sure you know about sentence structure, in this verse of scripture the "all" that are made alive in Christ are the same "all" that died in Adam.
Now verse 23 does say all those who belong to Christ, so lets look at who and what actually belongs to Christ.
So you've got two contradicting verses side by side.
Either the Bible contradicts itself or one of your views on these verses is wrong. Which is it?

[font="arial][size="3"]
[/size][/font]Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through Him and for Him. Col.1:16

Including the wicked for the day of destruction.

Proverbs 16:4

It's also to be noted you've once again completely ignored verses posted contrary to your view.

"I'll ignore these and instead post this".
 

jiggyfly

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So you've got two contradicting verses side by side.
Either the Bible contradicts itself or one of your views on these verses is wrong. Which is it?

[font="arial] [/font][/size]
[font="Arial"]Including the wicked for the day of destruction.


Proverbs 16:4

It's also to be noted you've once again completely ignored verses posted contrary to your view.

"I'll ignore these and instead post this".


I see no contradiction, but then I see Christ as victorious and successfully accomplishing His Father's plan and will and it seems this is just one more thing where we disagree.

Please point out where you see contradiction?