If faith by itself was sufficient for salvation why would Scripture say in reference to Abraham, "Thus you can see that his faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by woks" James 2:22. If faith was all that's needed (sufficient) it wouldn't need completion because it would be complete. That's what's sufficient means, enough, adequate. If it's enough or adequate it doesn't need completion. Demons believe and tremble. James 2:19
The Church decided the canon. How do you know you have the correct canon?
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Ok. If we were to agree that
God inspired the 66 books of the Canon, do we also agree that God has inspired (breathed out) His words through members of the church over the past 2000 years? That all these make up every word that proceeds from the mouth of God?
So when persecuted, and our life is threatened because of our confession of faith, we exercise our faith by our deeds or works. That is, we take the action (according to our existing faith) of confessing boldly our faith in Christ and face the consequences, even death?
So God saves us from death or He saves us through death according to His will and plan for the individual?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Is not just confessing with our mouths. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom not heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father." (Matt 7:21)
Then we have Matt 25:31-46. Those how fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, welcomed strangers, clothed the naked, cared for the sick and visited those in prison inherited the kingdom. It was not just faith/ belief because even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19) This is not to say works saves anyone but some people seem to think it's either faith or works, it's not it's both faith and works. Scripture is clear.
People then say, well works flow from faith. Sure but we still have to make a free conscious choice of the will to do that. If we aren't free to refuse to do the work then we aren't doing the work out of love. Love must be a free choice of the will.
Faith is not sufficient by itself, "You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone(James 2:24) this is confirmed in Matthew as indicated above. It doesn't mean works save us but neither does faith my itself. It's all right there
When talking about the canon, it's only really the Old Testament that differs from Orthodox to Catholic to Protestant with the number of books.
So I wonder how many books does the original Hebrew Tanakh have?
So I wonder how many books does the original Hebrew Tanakh have?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Eating late breakfast with some delicious coffee
Will post the scripture in a little while.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Here is one for starters
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21submitting to one another in the fear of God.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Correct and yet it is 100% pure scripture Truth
Origin and history of intramural
intramural(adj.)
1846, "within the walls, being within the walls or boundaries" (of a city, building, etc.), from intra- "within" + Latin muralis "pertaining to a wall," from murus "wall" (see mural). Equivalent to Late Latin intramuranus. Originally in English in reference to burials of the dead; in reference to college activities from 1871 (first at Columbia).also from 1846
Entries linking to intramural
mural(n.)
painting on a wall, by 1915, short for mural painting "a painting executed upon the wall of a building" (1850), from mural (adj.) "pertaining to a wall or walls" (mid-15c.), from Latin muralis "of a wall," from murus "wall" (Old Latin moiros, moerus), from PIE *mei- (3) "to fix; to build fences or fortifications" (source also of Old English mære "boundary, border, landmark;" Old Norse -mæri "boundary, border-land;" Latin munire "to fortify, protect").
parietal(adj.)
early 15c., "pertaining to the walls of a cavity in the body," from Late Latin parietalis "of walls," from Latin paries (genitive parietis) "wall" (of a building), a word of unknown origin. In U.S. also "pertaining to the residents and rules of a college or university" (1837; compare intramural). Combining form is parieto-.
intra-
word-forming element meaning "within, inside, on the inside," from Latin preposition intra "on the inside, within, in, into;" of time, "during, in the course of," related to inter "between," from PIE *en-t(e)ro-, from root *en "in." Commonly opposed to extra-, and compare inter-. The use of intra as a prefix was rare in classical Latin.
So we're clear , its you claiming it's intramural communication not scripture. Great. I love agreement.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
intramural is 100% scriptural as it was birthed from scripture Itself.
Please read carefully the definition and entomology of the word "intramural"
The Apostle Peter spoke of it as did the Apostles Paul and John
So herein lies the crux of the matter. You insist "intramural" is 100% Scriptural, even though that word never appears in Scripture, yet can't seem to grasp that faith is not sufficient for salvation but requires works as clearly stated in Scripture. It's fascinating.
I come along and point to where Scripture actually says faith without works is dead and faith is completed by works and man is justified by works and not by faith alone. You people however cite hundreds of passages that say faith and belief are needed for salvation even though none of Scripture you refer to say that's all that's necessary. You insist though faith is all that's needed but if that were true then Scripture wouldn't say, that man is justified by works and not faith alone. You guys love having it both ways. You want to insist you can instill meaning where none exist while ignoring what explicitly exist. It's a fascinating study of temerity
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Actually i do understand your emphasis on "works" being a "complete" part of salvation = James 2:14-26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
The KEY to "works" is where do they originate from
JESUS says that there will be many who say:
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Works are not sufficient for salvation - UNLESS - it is the work of God
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Just belief is not enough. You cite passage that say belief and faith lead to salvation and insist it's only that. That is not enough. Believing is not sufficient just like faith is not sufficient. This has been shown to you with scripture. The demons believe and tremble. Its irrelevant that they believe. If the work is just to believe then they are saved just like you. That can't be right.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
JESUS insists that the 'work' of faith/believing in HIM is the 'work' of God that saves us
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Sure it is - AND - JESUS proved it with the thief on the cross
So also does the Apostles Peter, Paul and John
Apostle Peter - "being born-again thru the Word of God which endures forever"
Apostle Paul = "Salvation is the Gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast"
Apostle John = "as many as received HIM, to them gave HE the power to become sons of God"
Sure it is - just as James wrote "i will show you my faith by my works"
Which part of salvation does JESUS, the Apostles and James all AGREE on = FAITH precedes works & works are dependent on FAITH
Works and faith are separate and works do not automatically flow from faith. No where does Scripture say faith precedes works or that works depend on faith.
If you have only belief/ faith then you are just like the demons. If you have only works then you have reason to boast. But faith is completed, look again, COMPLETED by works. If works complete faith then works by definition can NOT be dependent on faith.
"You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James2:24)Both alone are not sufficient but both are necessary together to complete faith. So when you make reference to all the places in Scripture where it says have faith and believe, that necessarily includes works AND faith since we aren't saved by faith alone. Works are a free choice of the will thats why apart from faith they give man reason to boast. We have to decide to act through faith.
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