Once Saved Always Saved

[kcnalp]

Why do you not believe what Jesus said? He said to them who says “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”, “I never knew you”.

Tong
R3286

I do believe Jesus. I just don't swallow the OSAS twist!

 

[kcnalp]

I never said that all NOSASers were unsaved. Regardless of whether someone believes OSAS or NOSAS, we are still saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

So you're admitting someone doesn't have to swallow the OSAS doctrine to be saved?

 

[mailmandan]

Let me point out a couple of things here, because the contention is not in the word 'never'.

In the Bible, 'knowing' is used in the context of intimacy in a relationship, and the lack of that relationship altogether. And notice, in this passage, it is not about them knowing him, but him not knowing them. Does he mean he never knew these people intimately, or he did not know them at all? Biblically, it could mean either.

Their lawlessness is not the exercise of their spiritual gifts, it's their lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ.

We don't know if these spiritual gifts were fake or for real. The parallel passage (Luke 13:24-30) suggests he is talking about the common everyday people who walked the streets with him, not the leaders of the Jews who would indeed have legitimate spiritual gifts despite them having neither an intimate relationship, or a relationship at all with Christ. But, the context of the Matthew 7 passage is false prophets. So that suggests he is talking about the leadership of Israel who have legit spiritual gifts.

He does seem to be addressing a particular group of people for whom 'never' applies. We are the one's who are saying Jesus is writing hard and fast truth about ALL people, everywhere, in all times who fit this description. Jesus doesn't say that in the passage. We interpret it that way.

So you see, this passage isn't as cut and dry as people make it out to be. Never means never in the passage. It's all these other things that I listed that are in contention.

This passage is cut and dry to me. "I never knew you" clearly means that Jesus never knew these many people. In context, Jesus mention false prophets and He contrasts a good tree with a bad tree, which further proves my point. A lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ, along with practicing lawlessness is descriptive of pseudo Christians and not genuine believers.

 

[Corlove13]

Yes....I know....
That’s the problem.....

One does not face judgement if they receive Jesus Christ. And judgement is eternal death.

But osasers [foundation]...are not receiving Christ as Lord, Rather the the blood of Christ as their foundation.

The problem is regeneration happens when you receive Him first as Lord....Not when you are using Him for His blood.

So one must first be born from above ..
They through the Father have come to see Jesus as the Son of God,king,Lord, Master...and have chosen in their heart to follow Him.

The Gospel of your deliverence [salvation]is Jesus.
Jesus was preached by what He did, because what He did showed who He was, that you may put confidence in Him.

................stop..........think about it......

Now if you have been born from above and reconciled to God.......He saved you from the Penalty of your sins.

But that is not all He saves you from
You still sin......and He wants to save you from actual sin in this present life.

So what is written? ROMAMS 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall "live".

Another words you do not have to wait until you die to "Live" it's talking about life
Now in the kingdom under His rule...for Jesus came that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Therefore given His Spirit .........."put away the deeds of the flesh"

So your assurance is "Life Now"....In the kingdom under the rule of God as you live by the Spirit. So it's one thing to believe and another to know your sins are forgiven.

My notes to myself- Therefore what is Salvation or the Baptism that saves here? Since it's through His resurrection that we are given His Spirit. Then His son's blood is continually being applied as we live by the power of Victory, of His resurrected life (spirit).
So that Baptism is being surrounded by the presence of God. [The Holy Trinity]

Recall what He tells His Disciples.....

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

How were they to baptize, surround baptize people in the name [presence of God]

So can you really be a Christian without being a disciple? No...by name only but not with the goal .."that He might destroy the works of the devil" throughout your life as you are in His. That you have a clear conscience before Him.

 

[mailmandan]

I do believe Jesus. I just don't swallow the OSAS twist!

So you are fighting against the truth in Matthew 7:22-23 because you believe it would uphold OSAS?

 

[kcnalp]

This passage is cut and dry to me. "I never knew you" clearly means that Jesus never knew these many people. In context, Jesus mention false prophets and He contrasts a good tree with a bad tree, which further proves my point. A lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ, along with practicing lawlessness is descriptive of pseudo Christians and not genuine believers.

Are you really saying that Jesus "never knew" them??? OSAS is getting quite desperate! Jesus knows EVERYTHING! Your OSAS agenda is gaping!

 

[kcnalp]

So you are fighting against the truth in Matthew 7:22-23 because you believe it would uphold OSAS?

See above.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why do you not believe what Jesus said? He said to them who says “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”, “I never knew you”.

Tong
R3286

I think this is the same case as the fake ministers in 1 John 2:19. It was true in their case in particular that they never knew him. Neither John or Jesus were writing hard and fast, broad sweeping doctrine that all people who prove to be fake never had a relationship with him at all.

 

[mailmandan]

So you're admitting someone doesn't have to swallow the OSAS doctrine to be saved?

My brother attends the Church of the Nazarene and believes NOSAS. He does not subscribe to "type 2 works salvation" but believes a genuine believer can later stop believing and walk away from Christ, thus losing their salvation. He also believes that only a small percentage of believers would do that. I still believe he is saved because he is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. There are multiple others in the NOSAS camp who subscribe to "type 2 works salvation" (Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc..) but not everyone in that camp does.

 

[kcnalp]

My brother attends the Church of the Nazarene and believes NOSAS. He does not subscribe to "type 2 works salvation" but believes a genuine believer can later stop believing and walk away from Christ, thus losing their salvation. He also believes that only a small percentage of believers would do that. I still believe he is saved because he is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. There are multiple others in the NOSAS camp who subscribe to "type 2 works salvation" (Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc..) but not everyone in that camp does.

A glimpse of hope for OSASers!

 

[mailmandan]

A glimpse of hope for OSASers!

See. No need for a broad brush. ;)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I never said that all NOSASers were unsaved. Regardless of whether someone believes OSAS or NOSAS, we are still saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Do you think that not believing in Osas automatically by default means you believe that salvation is by works?

 

[kcnalp]

See. No need for a broad brush. ;)

I never use a broad brush with people. There may be good people almost anywhere, but when OSASers constantly judge me as unsaved I point out their "broad brush".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Do you think that not believing in Osas automatically by default means you believe that salvation is by works?

Never mind. I just saw this post.....

My brother attends the Church of the Nazarene and believes NOSAS. He does not subscribe to "type 2 works salvation" but believes a genuine believer can later stop believing and walk away from Christ, thus losing their salvation. He also believes that only a small percentage of believers would do that. I still believe he is saved because he is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. There are multiple others in the NOSAS camp who subscribe to "type 2 works salvation" (Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc..) but not everyone in that camp does.

 

[Corlove13]

I'm sorry--you've misunderstood me. I wasn't remotely implying that *you* are unsaved. I was saying quite the opposite, that since you, as a saved person, would *not* contemplate a life without Christ, you would have a hard time understanding how *any* saved person would contemplate leaving Christ.

The situation I'm leaving you with is the idea that there are in fact Christians out there who are Christian "in name only," who have genuine convictions that Christianity is true, but who are not fully engaged in it, not being "born again." I've known many such people, who would claim to be Christian, but who don't live the Christian life. Some of them do even partly live the Christian life, and convey the Gospel message, but do not themselves fully invest themselves into union with Christ. They are more engrossed with the *power* of Christ than with the *person* of Christ.

Those like you and me who love the person of Christ hardly contemplate leaving him. But I'm saying that there are those who call themselves "Christians" who do not fully commit to Christ precisely because they do contemplate a life not fully vested in Christ. And they can easily contemplate being something other than a "right wing fundamentalist," or an "extreme Christian." Some accept all the basic doctrines and actually know Christ, but are full of internal conflicts and bitterness. And I believe these are not really born again.

I don't think those who have capitulated to Christ, making him Lord, contemplate leaving him. So if they do leave him, it has to be a major disappointment, or some kind of emotional breakdown. Normal Christians simply do not contemplate leaving Christ, because he is their life.

Sorry you got the wrong idea. I wasn't judging you in the least. On the contrary, I believe you're a true believer. My point is that true believers do not contemplate leaving Christ. So if they do leave him, it is not a completely "sane" decision, and Christ would take that into consideration on Judgment Day.

I do not believe Christians who have spiritual breakdowns like this, or Christians who commit suicide, are lost. I believe they've been ruined by painful experiences, and can be forgiven for their lack of insight and emotional turmoil by a merciful God.

I have had friends who were true Christians who committed suicide. I believe they're still saved. And I've had true Christian friends who left the faith, due to crises in their emotional or intellectual life. I also believe they will be saved.

But you're entitled to your own opinion. As you yourself quoted, "Judge not, lest you be judged."

I love what you said, "have union with"
Dallas Willard called it, well....."Vampire Christians" just give me your blood...but dont want to stay close to Him..

 

[mailmandan]

Do you think that not believing in Osas automatically by default means you believe that salvation is by works?

No, but unfortunately there are several churches that teach salvation by works and NOSAS becomes intertwined with type 2 works salvation for these people, but not everyone in the NOSAS camp falls in line with them. My brother is one such example.

 

[Tong2020]

Let me point out a couple of things here, because the contention is not in the word 'never'.

In the Bible, 'knowing' is used in the context of intimacy in a relationship, and, the lack of that relationship altogether. And notice, in this passage, it is not about them knowing him, but him not knowing them. Does he mean he never knew these people intimately, or he did not know them at all? Biblically, it could mean either.

Their lawlessness is not the exercise of their spiritual gifts, it's their lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ.

We don't know if these spiritual gifts were fake or for real. The parallel passage (Luke 13:24-30) suggests he is talking about the common everyday people who walked the streets with him who do not have spiritual gifts, not the leaders of the Jews who would indeed have legitimate spiritual gifts despite them having neither an intimate relationship, or a relationship at all with Christ. But, on the other hand, the context of the Matthew 7 passage is false prophets. So that suggests he is talking about the leadership of Israel who could have legit spiritual gifts.

He does seem to be addressing a particular group of people for whom 'never' applies, not broad stroking all people who live lawlessly in the exercise of their spiritual gifts. We are the one's who are saying Jesus is writing hard and fast truth about ALL people, everywhere, in all times who fit this description. Jesus doesn't say that in the passage. We interpret it that way.

So you see, this passage isn't as cut and dry as people make it out to be. Never means never in the passage. It's all these other things that I listed that are in contention.

<<<And notice, in this passage, it is not about them knowing him, but him not knowing them.>>>

Jesus told then “I never knew you”. That clearly refutes the position that they knew Jesus. Is it possible for them to have a relationship with Jesus given that?

<<<Their lawlessness is not the exercise of their spiritual gifts, it's their lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ.>>>

That’s one opinion.

<<<So that suggests he is talking about the leadership of Israel who could have legit spiritual gifts.>>>

Who are they are you referring to?

<<<He does seem to be addressing a particular group of people for whom 'never' applies>>>

He clearly does.

Tong
R3287

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This passage is cut and dry to me. "I never knew you" clearly means that Jesus never knew these many people. In context, Jesus mention false prophets and He contrasts a good tree with a bad tree, which further proves my point. A lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ, along with practicing lawlessness is descriptive of pseudo Christians and not genuine believers.

Yes, I understand that's what you believe. You understand 'never knew you' to mean 'never had a relationship at all', and not just 'never had an intimate relationship'. In the case of these particular people he's addressing that's probably the case. But you are drawing the conclusion that ALL people who don't have a relationship with Jesus never had any kind of relationship with Jesus. John did not mean that in 1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:24, so how can we conclude Jesus meant that in Matthew 7:23?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

esus told then “I never knew you”. That clearly refutes the position that they knew Jesus. Is it possible for them to have a relationship with Jesus given that?

I knew somebody would think I'm saying they may have had a relationship with Jesus despite him not knowing them. I'm not saying or suggesting that in the least. So you can let that go. Nobody can have a relationship with Jesus unless he has one with them.

 

[Corlove13]

<<<And notice, in this passage, it is not about them knowing him, but him not knowing them.>>>

Jesus told then “I never knew you”. That clearly refutes the position that they knew Jesus. Is it possible for them to have a relationship with Jesus given that?

<<<Their lawlessness is not the exercise of their spiritual gifts, it's their lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ.>>>

That’s one opinion.

<<<So that suggests he is talking about the leadership of Israel who could have legit spiritual gifts.>>>

Who are they are you referring to?

<<<He does seem to be addressing a particular group of people for whom 'never' applies>>>

He clearly does.

Tong
R3287

It clearly shows you can be in the light but not of the light. It's not the hearers of the word that are saved....but the doers.

Let me correct that with:
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.