Once Saved Always Saved

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why do you not believe what Jesus said? He said to them who says “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”, “I never knew you”.

I do believe Jesus. I just don't swallow the OSAS twist!

Then believe that He never knew them, without what you say is OSAS twist, whatever that is.

Tong
R3288

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<Their lawlessness is not the exercise of their spiritual gifts, it's their lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ.>>>

That’s one opinion.

It says it right in the passage......

"everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand." Matthew 7:26​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<So that suggests he is talking about the leadership of Israel who could have legit spiritual gifts.>>>

Who are they are you referring to?

Judas, of course. And Caiaphas (John 11:51).

 

[kcnalp]

Then believe that He never knew them, without what you say is OSAS twist, whatever that is.

Tong
R3288

Don't you even know that Jesus knows everything??? You're TWISTING to fit YOUR unBiblical doctrine.

BTW, thanks for saying I can NEVER be unsaved. Wish I could say the same for OSASers!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So you're admitting someone doesn't have to swallow the OSAS doctrine to be saved?

He doesn't say you have to believe Osas to be saved. Let's give him credit where credit is due. I think he's saying the important thing is that you believe. He just thinks true believers are the one's who can't/won't stop believing. I personally am fine with someone believing that. That single point is a non-issue, as long as one understands the importance of continuing to believe.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I love what you said, "have union with"
Dallas Willard called it, well....."Vampire Christians" just give me your blood...but dont want to stay close to Him..

Interesting.

 

[kcnalp]

He doesn't say you have to believe Osas to be saved. Let's give him credit where credit is due. I think he's saying the important thing is that you believe. He just thinks true believers are the one's who can't/won't stop believing. I personally am fine with someone believing that. That single point is a non-issue, as long as one understands the importance of continuing to believe.

No argument. But I get tired of the OSAS judges.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Faith it is for you then. As for me, it is Jesus Christ.

Tong
R3285

You can't have faith and not have Jesus. You're creating a dichotomy between faith and Jesus that doesn't exist! Behold has this stupid argument that I trust in faith, not in Jesus. Even if that were true it's still faith in Jesus, lol!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why do you not believe what Jesus said? He said to them who says “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”, “I never knew you”.

I think this is the same case as the fake ministers in 1 John 2:19. It was true in their case in particular that they never knew him. Neither John or Jesus were writing hard and fast, broad sweeping doctrine that all people who prove to be fake never had a relationship with him at all.

What Jesus said in Mt.7:23 is clear. He never knew them. There is nothing that they could do nor say nor present to Jesus Christ to dispute that.

Tong
R3289

 

[Corlove13]

I knew somebody would think I'm saying they may have had a relationship with Jesus despite him not knowing them. I'm not saying or suggesting that in the least. So you can let that go. Nobody can have a relationship with Jesus unless he has one with them.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

This is one way we can relate to Him...following His rules

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No argument. But I get tired of the OSAS judges.

Most of them can't help but to think that if you don't believe in Osas then you believe in works salvation. They're literally incapable of grasping the argument that you don't have to believe in Osas to believe in salvation by grace through faith. They are only capable of thinking that you must believe you have to do something to earn salvation if you don't believe in Osas.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What Jesus said in Mt.7:23 is clear. He never knew them. There is nothing that they could do nor say nor present to Jesus Christ to dispute that.

Tong
R3289

I'm not disputing that. I'm calling into view WHO he's talking to. He's not talking to every single person in all of human history who fits that description. We know that from 1 John 2:19-24 where John also talks about false teachers.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

This is one way we can relate to Him...following His rules

That shows that he not only knows you, but knows you intimately, and that you in turn know him intimately. Like how you know a wife knows her husband intimately by the fact that she bears the fruit of that intimate relationship. What the relationship bears, or doesn't bear, is the sign of the level of intimacy of that relationship, not if a relationship exists at all.

In the light of all this Osas stuff, I think it is those who have yet to know Christ intimately who have the potential to fall away and be lost. I think the Parable of the Sower shows us that. He said the seed of the word remains in the soil in perseverance in the mature believer, the fruit bearing believer. But it can be potentially cast out of the soil of the immature believer who has yet to come into an intimate relationship with God (i.e. the Galatians - Galatians 4:9).

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, I understand that's what you believe. You understand 'never knew you' to mean 'never had a relationship at all', and not just 'never had an intimate relationship'. In the case of these particular people he's addressing that's probably the case. But you are drawing the conclusion that ALL people who don't have a relationship with Jesus never had any kind of relationship with Jesus. John did not mean that in 1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:24, so how can we conclude Jesus meant that in Matthew 7:23?

Not that one calls himself a Christian and profess to know Jesus is in truth does. And so, they think, and we presume that they have a relationship with Jesus. Now when Jesus tells them, “I never knew you”, do you think Jesus was saying that He once knew them but not anymore?

As I pointed out, what Jesus said is clear in Mt.7:23. He never knew them. Simply put, they were people whom Jesus never knew, even while they think they knew Jesu Christ. They try to point to their doing things in the name of Jesus to try and prove that they had a relationship with Him, but even that would not refute the truth that there was no such relationship. Jesus said He never knew them.

Tong
R2390

 

[Randy Kluth]

I love what you said, "have union with"
Dallas Willard called it, well....."Vampire Christians" just give me your blood...but dont want to stay close to Him..

Interesting way of putting it. But yes, many receive Christ for his benefits, but not for *him.* We must want the *person* of Christ, and not just his "power" and "blessings." Sometimes it's even "popular" to be a Christian. But the day comes when it is unpopular and one must choose who he loves more--God or the world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sorry about that error.

And the only thing that counts is you are in Christ and Christ is in you.

All mankind are in Adam, but not all are in the second Adam.

Tong
R3284

Thank God! I didn't think you were so far off! :) Right on!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
esus told then “I never knew you”. That clearly refutes the position that they knew Jesus. Is it possible for them to have a relationship with Jesus given that?

I knew somebody would think I'm saying they may have had a relationship with Jesus despite him not knowing them. I'm not saying or suggesting that in the least. So you can let that go. Nobody can have a relationship with Jesus unless he has one with them.

If not, then what are you saying in your post 5560? Let me quote:

“In the Bible, 'knowing' is used in the context of intimacy in a relationship, and, the lack of that relationship altogether. And notice, in this passage, it is not about them knowing him, but him not knowing them. Does he mean he never knew these people intimately, or he did not know them at all? Biblically, it could mean either.”

And if you are not saying that, then what do you understand Jesus said in Mt.7:23 saying “I never knew them”?

Tong
R3291

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If not, then what are you saying in your post?

And if you are not saying that, then what do you understand Jesus said in Mt.7:23 saying “I never knew them”?

Tong
R3291

I'm saying, did Christ never know these people intimately, or did he never know them at all? Because both kinds of 'knowing' are Biblical. I brought forth all the particulars of the passage that one must take into consideration before deciding Jesus is writing hard and fast Osas doctrine here. I don't think it necessarily precludes the person who He did know at one time, but who He never knew intimately.

The important take away here is not whether or not these people were ever saved. The take away is that anybody who doesn't put Christ's teachings into practice will not be saved when He comes back. Whether or not they were ever really saved or not is not the important matter here. We can see how Osas focusing on that aspect causes Osas to miss what matters in the passage. I mean, look how Osas has now degraded to the point that you don't even have to believe in God to be saved when Jesus comes back, let alone live for him! That's why I say Osas was the beginning of the end for the church leading up to the return of Christ. IMO, it's the doctrine that destroys the church as the true representation of Christ in the earth in the end times.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<And notice, in this passage, it is not about them knowing him, but him not knowing them.>>>

Jesus told then “I never knew you”. That clearly refutes the position that they knew Jesus. Is it possible for them to have a relationship with Jesus given that?

<<<Their lawlessness is not the exercise of their spiritual gifts, it's their lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ.>>>

That’s one opinion.

<<<So that suggests he is talking about the leadership of Israel who could have legit spiritual gifts.>>>

Who are they are you referring to?

<<<He does seem to be addressing a particulargroup of people for whom 'never' applies>>>

He clearly does.

It clearly shows you can be in the light but not of the light. It's not the hearers of the word that are saved....but the doers.

Let me correct that with:
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

<<<It clearly shows you can be in the light but not of the light.>>>

Could you be in Christ but not of Christ?

<<<For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.>>>

What do you mean to point out by that about justification? Are you saying that justification is by doing what the law says?

Tong
R3292

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Their lawlessness is not the exercise of their spiritual gifts, it's their lack of obedience to the sayings of Christ.>>>

That’s one opinion.

It says it right in the passage......

"everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand." Matthew 7:26​

It does not say there, unless one reads that into the passage.

Tong
R3293