Bible alone

[theefaith]

Authority. Teaching. Not the same thing.

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments the abundant life of grace!



What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

 

[Wrangler]

The apostles are Christ’s successors!

Christ has no successor. His kingdom is eternal.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ummm... all of the "Scriptures" the Apostles grew up on were "non-Christian". Oops!
We already know Enoch wasn't Christian--not even a Jew!

Christians quoted the Law, the Prophets, the Writings, etc. in order to prove Christ was Messiah. I don't see that with Enoch. He didn't become a foundation for Christian theology. There was nothing, essentially, "Christian" in it.

On the other hand, the OT Scriptures were chalk full of "proofs" that Jesus was Messiah for the Christians who quoted them. Yes, they were OT and not "Christian" in the sense of being NT Scriptures. Those had not been declared as such yet.

And yet, Enoch was of the same mold as other Jewish writings that offered no Christian truth that I can see? The OT Scriptures all spoke of Christ, by contrast.

So, you admit you don't know what it means, but you're using it as an argument?

There's the idea that it, ie baptism for the dead, was something practiced in some parts outside of Christianity. It proved recognition that the dead still live in the minds of many. For Paul, that was worth using to speak to those familiar with it.

OK
I lost sleep--and I therefore went and did my due diligence, and found those latter books (separate writings) wanting.

Yes, again--it's not huge with me... just something worth giving my 2 cents to. Those 2 cents I never expected would be of great value to anybody.

 

[GracePeace]

Christians quoted the Law, the Prophets, the Writings, etc. in order to prove Christ was Messiah. I don't see that with Enoch. He didn't become a foundation for Christian theology. There was nothing, essentially, "Christian" in it.

Don't try to be tricky. Paul says that part of the Gospel is that God will come to judge Romans 2:16--therefore Enoch is preaching the "Christian" Gospel in announcing the coming Day of Judgment.

On the other hand, the OT Scriptures were chalk full

Chock full.

full of "proofs" that Jesus was Messiah for the Christians who quoted them. Yes, they were OT and not "Christian" in the sense of being NT Scriptures. Those had not been declared as such yet.

No, no, no, no... the OT Scriptures were decided upon by Ezra and the Men of the Great Assembly... "proofs that Jesus was Messiah" didn't factor in.

There's the idea that it, ie baptism for the dead, was something practiced in some parts outside of Christianity. It proved recognition that the dead still live in the minds of many. For Paul, that was worth using to speak to those familiar with it.

As I already explained, I'm talking about recognizing writings whose authority the authors submitted their own lives to--eg, the sources relied upon for the tradition "the Rock that followed them".

 

[Randy Kluth]

Don't try to be tricky. Paul says that part of the Gospel is that God will come to judge Romans 2:16--therefore Enoch is preaching the "Christian" Gospel in announcing the coming Day of Judgment.

You're a little too quick to judge, brother. I'm not trying to be tricky. I just don't see Enoch in the mold of OT Scriptures used by NT authors to prove Christian truth. All of the Scriptures, according to Jesus, spoke of him. One little passage in 1 Enoch, and you think it's all about Jesus? I don't think so.

Chock full.

I'll take your word for it.

No, no, no, no... the OT Scriptures were decided upon by Ezra and the Men of the Great Assembly... "proofs that Jesus was Messiah" didn't factor in.

Obviously. My point, rather, was that NT authors relied on OT Scriptures as pointing to Jesus. That can't be said about Enoch, even if one passage is cited as referring to Jesus.

As I already explained, I'm talking about recognizing writings whose authority the authors submitted their own lives to--eg, the sources relied upon for the tradition "the Rock that followed them".

I don't see that Christians cited Enoch for the purpose of relying on Jesus. It just substantiated the Jewish traditional belief that Enoch foretold a day of judgment.

I don't believe Enoch sounds like material Jews would see as sacred Scriptures. It lacks the interconnection between the history of God's plan and God's spoken word. Usually, Scriptures connect God's prophetic word as it acts in conjunction with the Abrahamic promises. I'm not that familiar with Enoch, but it doesn't sound as such to me.

I think it may have been a popular work among the Jews in the time of Jude. And so, it became a source from which he could speak to all the Jews about the fact of Christ's coming in judgment.

 

[GracePeace]

You're a little too quick to judge, brother. I'm not trying to be tricky. I just don't see Enoch in the mold of OT Scriptures used by NT authors to prove Christian truth. All of the Scriptures, according to Jesus, spoke of him. One little passage in 1 Enoch, and you think it's all about Jesus? I don't think so.

Again, that wasn't the measuring rod used to determine Scripture--though I showed already that it did preach the Gospel.

I'll take your word for it.

Well, it's a link--you can follow the link, too.

I don't see that Christians cited Enoch for the purpose of relying on Jesus. It just substantiated the Jewish traditional belief that Enoch foretold a day of judgment.

Enoch was a prophet. You want to ignore that to substantiate your ad hoc, arbitrary, baseless standard by which you think to reject anything that is not in the Bible as "decisively" "not Scriptural" in ridiculous circular reasoning.

I don't believe Enoch sounds

Jude obviously lived his life by it, so your "belief" about it's "sound" is not important to me.

like material Jews would see as sacred Scriptures. It lacks the interconnection between the history of God's plan and God's spoken word. Usually, Scriptures connect God's prophetic word as it acts in conjunction with the Abrahamic promises. I'm not that familiar with Enoch, but it doesn't sound as such to me.

This is the second or third time you've admitted you're actually trying to speak authoritatively on matters about which you don't have much knowledge. That sums your views up nicely. My (reasonable, I think) advice is that you actually read 1 Enoch and then rejoin the conversation.

 

[GracePeace]

You're a little too quick to judge, brother. I'm not trying to be tricky. I just don't see Enoch in the mold of OT Scriptures used by NT authors to prove Christian truth. All of the Scriptures, according to Jesus, spoke of him. One little passage in 1 Enoch, and you think it's all about Jesus? I don't think so.



I'll take your word for it.



Obviously. My point, rather, was that NT authors relied on OT Scriptures as pointing to Jesus. That can't be said about Enoch, even if one passage is cited as referring to Jesus.



I don't see that Christians cited Enoch for the purpose of relying on Jesus. It just substantiated the Jewish traditional belief that Enoch foretold a day of judgment.

I don't believe Enoch sounds like material Jews would see as sacred Scriptures. It lacks the interconnection between the history of God's plan and God's spoken word. Usually, Scriptures connect God's prophetic word as it acts in conjunction with the Abrahamic promises. I'm not that familiar with Enoch, but it doesn't sound as such to me.

I think it may have been a popular work among the Jews in the time of Jude. And so, it became a source from which he could speak to all the Jews about the fact of Christ's coming in judgment.

Jude lived by Enoch's prophecies--this you're determined to treat lightly.
Paul may've lived by authoritative extra-Biblical traditions--this you find unremarkable.
"Men who held to views I'd consider anti-Scriptural (eg, Mariolatry) told me so!"
Sounds good. Keep on following those errant men.

 

[CadyandZoe]

apostle not an office?

No. Not an office.

 

[theefaith]

Christ has no successor. His kingdom is eternal.

to continue his ministry mission and work of redemption until he returns

are you a Saturday sabbath keeper?

 

[GracePeace]

to continue his ministry mission and work of redemption until he returns

are you a Saturday sabbath keeper?

LOL

 

[Wrangler]

to continue his ministry mission and work of redemption until he returns

are you a Saturday sabbath keeper?

Of course! However, I'm afraid you are going to read this as some JW put down.

Jesus is lord of the Sabbath. He did not change the Sabbath day. That is just tradition.

 

[theefaith]

No. Not an office.

Then who is the head of the church on earth? Who has custody of the holy church? Who administer the kingdom of Christ?

 

[theefaith]

LOL

Here’s the verses if you like

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Acts 2:42

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

[theefaith]

Of course! However, I'm afraid you are going to read this as some JW put down.

Jesus is lord of the Sabbath. He did not change the Sabbath day. That is just tradition.

no put down, I respect your faith, heart felt belief is your personal business
And I think you’re intelligent also, I know I’m not the brightest bulb in the box

I’m just curious about it, Paul said if you keep the law you have fallen from grace

The sabbath is part of the law, but also part of the first creation, but we are a new creation and God makes all things new

 

[GracePeace]

Here’s the verses if you like

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Acts 2:42

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

What I LOLd at was your "Inquisition" into the ignorance of his "'7th Day Sabbath'-keeping".

 

[theefaith]

What I LOLd at was your "Inquisition" into the ignorance of his "'7th Day Sabbath'-keeping".

Ok

 

[theefaith]

Does a doctrine have to be in the Bible?

where does the Bible say so?

no, it must be revealed by God and taught by His church, the apostles
Acts 2:42 matt 16:18 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

 

[GracePeace]

Does a doctrine have to be in the Bible?

where does the Bible say so?

no, it must be revealed by God and taught by His church, the apostles
Acts 2:42 matt 16:18 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

What's in the Bible BOTH condemns all deeds contrary to sound doctrine 1 Timothy 1:9-10 AND "equips for every good work" (it makes sense these are both true simultaneously as they are two sides of the same coin). We don't need anything else. God put His will for us in His Word and wrote those things down with Christians in mind 1 Corinthians 9:10.

 

[theefaith]

What's in the Bible BOTH condemns all deeds contrary to sound doctrine 1 Timothy 1:9-10 AND "equips for every good work" (it makes sense these are both true simultaneously as they are two sides of the same coin). We don't need anything else. God put His will for us in His Word and wrote those things down with Christians in mind 1 Corinthians 9:10.

then explain these verses
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 acts 2:42
Acts 8 the eunuch had scripture and the spirit send an apostle to teach him
And Philip preached a Jesus, how did the eunuch know about baptism?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jude lived by Enoch's prophecies--this you're determined to treat lightly.
Paul may've lived by authoritative extra-Biblical traditions--this you find unremarkable.
"Men who held to views I'd consider anti-Scriptural (eg, Mariolatry) told me so!"
Sounds good. Keep on following those errant men.

I don't at all agree that Jude lived by Enoch's prophecies. Catholic sources can be cited for their popularly-accepted expressions about faith that are legitimate without sanctioning Catholicism whole cloth.

I'm not sure if this is your issue or not. But within my own American culture, I can quote Mark Twain to speak to Americans without sanctioning Twain's life and morality. Christians in the 1st century could legitimately quote Jewish works known to all to speak to a particular expectation without legitimizing the source in all respects.

That's what I believe was happening with Enoch. He was a well-known source of information, expressing what most people believed Enoch prophesied. Pretending to *be* the real Enoch was another thing entirely. Most likely, people knew that the work was not Enoch, that it was pseudepigraphal.

Jews decided what was Scripture in the OT era--they did not choose Enoch. NT authors did not therefore treat Enoch as Scriptures, and would therefore not be treated as canonical. They determined NT canon later, but they also accepted what the Jews had established as OT Scriptures.

If I am missing some of the process of what the Jews and Christians accepted as OT canon, I apologize. I'm ready to learn more. The point I've tried to make is that before NT Scriptures were established as canonical, they did not treat Enoch as Jewish canon.