Does Judging Work?

[Robbie]

The homosexual thread got me thinking about the subject of judging... not judging homosexuals.... just judging in general... especially after I tried to prove my point to foreigner by doing to them what they were telling me to do to homosexuals by informing them of what my perception of what their sin was.... and their response being exactly what I would expect anyone who's judged to be... total and complete defensiveness only to turn around and judge me back. Foreigner actually became so defensive that they couldn't even read the context of what I was saying about how yucky and lame it felt to act that way and that I was just doing to them what they were telling me to do to others to prove a point. Their response in my eyes proved my beliefs... judging is worthless... which is probably why Jesus said not to do it.

Another interesting comment I read in that topic that is relevant to judging is the principle that we wouldn't just let a child run in front of a car... this is totally true... but this is also a huge problem within christianity that pisses people off about the way christians view them.. when discussing sin we're not talking to little children that don't know any better than to run in front of a car and to see them that way is insulting to them because it's putting ourselves above them... these are adults that are equal to us and simply are choosing to sin (which if we're honest with ourselves I'm sure we'll see we also fail... just in different ways)... now if others are anything like I was before walking in a relationship with the Lord people coming up to them and repromanding them like they're dumb kids will just piss them off... they'll feel judged and like I already said become completely defensive and turn around and judge back.

The only thing that draws us to God is His Love... those who are under the Law think the revelation of God comes through experiencing His judgment... those who are under grace think the revlation of God comes through Jesus Christ... who is the revelation of God's Love... sending His Son to die for us when we were at our worst.

This is another thing I've noticed... if we judge others we won't just be judged by God... we'll be judged by them... what's the first thing you do when a chick calls another chick fat? you judge whether they're fat... because when someone judges another person for some reason it immediatly causes us to want to judge them... like in surfing... as soon as I hear someone talk about how bad someone sucks I immediatly judge whether they suck... well if the person is the best surfer in the world you kind of say, "Well I guess in comparison to them the other guy does kind of suck" but if the person is equal to them you're gonna say, "Who are they to talk".

Jesus is the only one who was ever Good enough to Judge... when anyone else judges you just say to yourself, "Who are they to talk" because none of us are righteous except by the only way any of us can be... by the covering and washing of the blood of Jesus Christ...

Discuss...

PS: Please don't pull sentences out of what I wrote and respond to anything out of context... by pulling a sentence out of what I wrote you can make me say whatever it is you want me to be saying... just like by pulling a sentence out of the bible you can make it say whatever you want it to say... thanks...

 

[Foreigner]

I invite others to read Robbie's posts under the threadhe is eluding to.

You will see that he equates sharing the Gospel with those who have not heard it, with standing in judgement over them.

Mark 16:15 calls us to share the Gospel but he states that just "loving" people who are living a life of sin and not pointing out that Jesus loves them but expects them to turn away from that sin...is actually spreading the Gospel.

I pointed out that Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Agonostics, etc. can all love just as freely without strings and according to his standard they are spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ because they aren't actually pointing out that the person is lost in sin and doomed if they do not realize Jesus loves them, turn from their sin, and accept His redemption.

 

[Robbie]

haha... my immediate response to your post was to become defensive and then to feel judgmental towards you... once again proving my point...

So here we go... me and you never discussed any of those belief systems or whether they are preaching the gospel of the Kingdom so that's a flat out lie (Defensive)... and you seem to like to debate with your own imagination even to the point that you make stuff up in your head that people have never said... (Judgmental)

See dude... here's where judging goes... back and forth... because unless the other person is perfect you'll always have a come back... you'll pick each other apart... that to me is worthless... it does nothing but tear each other down... I mean look at Jesus and the pharisees... they'd judge Jesus and it would go back and forth and the point is they had nothing to accuse him about... so they made stuff up... and when He would judge them rightly for their hypocrisy they had nothing to accuse Him of back so they'd make more stuff up and accuse Him of things He never said or did. If judging went that bad with Jesus where there was nothing to go back and forth about because He was perfect... how much more of a vicious cycle will it be between people that can point out each other's flaws all day.

Judging is futile... but when we love others despite their sin or flaws we love them the way God loves us...

Making disciples of nations isn't setting ourselves up as peoples judges or teachers... it's introducing them to Jesus so He can teach them and He can speak to their heart by His Spirit...

I personally have never repented of anything because some christian told me to stop... but when I met Jesus He began speaking to my heart and convicting me... He's my teacher... He's my counselor...

By judging others I'm just creating a vicious circle of judgment... because if I judge I'll be judged...

If I introduce people to Jesus He's the one worthy of convicting their heart because there's nothing in the truth we can accuse Him of back... so the vicious cycle is broken... He convicts our heart... in that we know He's perfect and it's only by His Grace, Power and Love in us that we can do anything...

It's the Grace of God that draws us to repentance...

PS: You don't have to tall me I'm not quoting scripture correctly like you did in the other topic... I'm not quoting scripture... I'm speaking from my heart...

 

[Templar81]

I think that judging is a sin like any other and we all do it. Like any other sin we should try to be aware of it and try not to stop doing it and ask God to help us not to do it.

We as Christians should not judge because it is for God to do that, but we as human beings living in afallen world will still do it again and again because we are so flawd.

 

[Rach1370]

I think what Foreigner is trying to say Robbie, is that speaking the gospel to those that need it the most, is not judging....it IS loving.

While its important to love others, we need to be careful that we do not give them the impression that we are okay with their choices. And I'm not just talking of homosexuals, I'm talking of liars, cheaters, thieves....all sin. And we remember that sin is not necessarily an offense to us...but a deathly offense to God.
You think when we say 'being gay is a sin' means we judge? But is it really US judging when that comes straight from God? Are we not just obeying, rather than judging?? You say leave the judging to God...my brother I believe the Bible is clear that He already has....He tells us it IS a sin.

Because we can say Jesus is all about love, and He is, but His mission....the very reason for His death on the cross, was to save people from sin. His was the action to save, but it is our calling to spread that news, so people may come to Him, know His love and have Him forgive their sins.

I know you just want to love people; but truly, you can love them and still share the gospel with them. And really, what is more loving....allowing them to believe it is okay to put themselves and their own desires on the throne in their lives, or to put Jesus there, where He belongs? As a Christian you must know that having Jesus there is such a better way to live!!! Don't you want that for everyone...especially your friends?

 

[Robbie]

Hey Rach...

Thanks for the reply... I'm not having any trouble comprehending what Foreigner is saying... I just don't agree with what he's saying. My point being I did to him what he's saying to do to them and his response to judgment was exactly what I would expect his to be, there's to be, as well as what mine would be. That of defensiveness and then returning judgment... because as long as I'm imperfect... as soon as I point out someone else's sin their response is just going to be getting defensive and then turning around and pointing out my sin... this is a vicious circle. When I'm perfect I can judge... but until then I see myself as just as bad as any other person... so who am I to point out there sin? I can point them to Jesus which I believe is what preaching the gospel of the Kingdom is... when they submit to Him as King they are under His Kingship... they're in His Kingdom... then He can speak to their heart about what He wants to teach them or correct them about. I am not their King... He is... and only if they willfully choose to bow their knee... if not then they are in rebellion against Him and even then it's only for Him to judge.

Whether it's a person who's guilty of murder because they hate, or someone who's guilty of adultery because they lust, or guilty of idolatry because they covet, or guilty of the same sin as the devil because of pride, or guilty of any of the different forms of sexual immorality, or someone causing kids to break the sabbath by making them do homework on sunday when they should be free to play... we're all in the same boat... needing our sins covered by the blood of the lamb.

I don't pick and choose sins to focus on... I believe when people do this it's because of pride. The drinker thinks the person who smokes weed is bad... the person who smokes weed thinks the person who does acid is bad... the person who does acid thinks the person who does cocain is bad... the person who does cocain thinks the person who slams heroin is bad... and the person is who slams heroin thinks the person who smokes crack is bad... this is all just attempts at self justification... the reality is anything that hurts us in any way is bad... and we all need Jesus to set us free from all sins...

So to feel it's my responsability to point out any individual sin is wrong and is just an attempt to justify myself by focusing on other people faults who I think are worse than my own... this is worthless... the truth is we need Jesus to set us free... this is the simple truth and doesn't justify one person above another because our only righteousness can be Him.

So the question is...

Does judging work?

 

[aspen]

Jesus told us not to judge because we were never created to perform the task. You have to know the future if you are going to judge effectively and we cannot know the future. Therefore we are left to making educated guesses and than as time passes, we can look back in hindsight to see if we were right. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not equip us with a new skill - it merely introduced evil and forced us to have to deal with it. The only skills we have to determine right from wrong is dualism - a thing or circumstance is either all right or all wrong - it is ineffective and leads to more evil. All we were created to do is love and love is what Jesus came to teach us how to do once again.

 

[Robbie]

Good word Aspen ^^^ I'd like to add... not just what He teaches us but commands us...

Here's an interesting parable that sums up my views... Jesus spoke perfectly...

Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The truth is it's not just fornicators, or idolaters, or adulterers, or homosexuals,[sup] [/sup]or sodomites, or thieves, or covetous, or drunkards, or revilers, or extortioners that will not inherit the kingdom of God... it's nobody will inherit the Kingdom of God unless they're one of two things... perfect (No one is except Jesus) or receiving God's mercy by being washed by the blood of Jesus so their sins are forgiven... I can't believe people read that in corinthians and pick individual sins out and focus on them... can't you see the point? Do you think there was anyone who wasn't guilty of at least some sin... I don't care that Paul said some of them... it's all of them... because there is none righteous. So the point is not one of them was entering into the Kingdom based on self righteousness... but they were washed... they were sanctified in His name.

The sooner we say, "God be merciful to me a sinner" and not, "Thank you Lord for not making me like them" the faster we become justified... by the washing of blood and the covering od sins...

Does Judging work?

 

[Martin W.]

The truth is it's not just fornicators, or idolaters, or adulterers, or homosexuals,[sup] [/sup]or sodomites, or thieves, or covetous, or drunkards, or revilers, or extortioners that will not inherit the kingdom of God...

I'm glad you quoted that verse.
Many in the anti-gay movement leave out the part about fornicators, or idolaters, or adulterers, or thieves, or covetous, or drunkards, or revilers, or extortioners.

But I still feel (now I am judging) that we should not support the gay-agenda any more than we should endorse the thief-agenda , the drunkard-agenda , the liar-agenda or the murder-agenda.

For that reason I feel it is appropriate for Christians to "judge" all sin as wrong and state so publicly.

Adultery is probably a hundred times more prevalent in the church than homosexuality , but hypocritical Judging Christians find it much more convenient to bash the gay than the adulterers and liars because they are often doing those things themselves.

 

[Rach1370]

So to feel it's my responsability to point out any individual sin is wrong and is just an attempt to justify myself by focusing on other people faults who I think are worse than my own... this is worthless... the truth is we need Jesus to set us free... this is the simple truth and doesn't justify one person above another because our only righteousness can be Him.

So the question is...

Does judging work?

Hey Robbie. Look, I get what your saying, but I do believe you're missing the difference between pointing out sin and judging.

The dictionary tells us Judging means: "to pass sentence on"

And you're right...this is only Gods role.

But we are to told to comfort and encourage one another (within the Church)....which can mean lovingly calling someone to repentance. And doing this doesn't mean we are declaring ourselves 'better'. To become a Christian we had to come to a full realization of how bad we are, and how badly we need Jesus. We have to put up our hand and say 'I'm a sinner.'

And as for non Christians, we are told to spread the Gospel. My friend what is the gospel? Isn't it that as sinners, mankind needed a Savior, that one perfect man, who wondrously is also God, to die for our sins so we may be seen as righteous in Gods eyes?
You can't separate what Jesus did for mankind from the sin that made that sacrifice necessary.

So is it possibly to speak to people of sin in a loving and humble manner? Yes it is...we have the very best example to follow....Jesus!!

 

[Martin W.]

That is probably why we are told "judge not"

I think the idea is that we should be examining our own shortcomings instead of judging others for theirs.

Most of Mankind likes to find faults in other people.

Christians REALLY like to do it.

 

[timf]

I just posted this on the thread Robbie mentioned so I thought I should post it here as well.


Greek words (as in English) can sometimes carry multiple or overlapping meanings.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

1 Corinthians 5:11-12 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

Judge = krinō
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

It would seem that judgment with condemnation is prohibited, but judgment with discernment is required.

Consider if you were to travel to Mexico. If you came across a street vendor selling bottled water and you noticed one bottle had a loose cap and was on crooked, it would be prudent to choose the bottle whose cap was sealed to purchase. You might warn another tourist to avoid the bottle with the loose cap. The other tourist might get angry at you and and tell you to mind your own business. You might get angry at the vendor and curse him for attempting to sell polluted water.

In this example, discerning judgment can prevent great discomfort. Warning others may or may not be appreciated. Condemnation of perpetrators would be "over the top" as well as ineffective. Inviting the perpetrator into a church or home to sell his water would not show good judgment. If the vendor did not know his water was polluted and was angry at any suggestion there was anything wrong with what he was selling, it is still sound judgment to keep him from damaging others. "Not judging" does not mean we should drink from poisoned wells or allow others to spread poison.

There are those who claim to be Christian and demonstrate unrepentant sinful lives. Paul tells us that we should not even eat with such. We are to exercise judgment just not with condemnation.

 

[bud02]

Jesus told us not to judge because we were never created to perform the task. You have to know the future if you are going to judge effectively and we cannot know the future. Therefore we are left to making educated guesses and than as time passes, we can look back in hindsight to see if we were right. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not equip us with a new skill - it merely introduced evil and forced us to have to deal with it.

The only skills we have to determine right from wrong is dualism [ really? so where does the HS fit in into your theology? ]
- a thing or circumstance is either all right or all wrong [ so when Satin was quoting scripture to Jesus in the wilderness he was entirely wrong? ]- it is ineffective and leads to more evil.
All we were created to do is love and love is what Jesus came to teach us how to do once again. [ Jesus came to restore what was lost in the garden a relationship with the LORD our creator]

You don't seem to understand that properly speaking the words of God are judgment, they are not my words that judge but the Lords words are more powerful than a double edged sword.
Please note "double edged" it cuts both ways. You are like the prophets that spoke what the people wanted to hear, you are not like Elijah who spoke as the Lord commanded.

 

[Foreigner]

Many in the anti-gay movement leave out the part about fornicators, or idolaters, or adulterers, or thieves, or covetous, or drunkards, or revilers, or extortioners.

-- Really? "Leave out the part about...?" You are either ignorant to the fact or you have an agenda.

When homosexuals are witnessed to, one of the MAIN POINTS brought out to them FIRST AND FOREMOST is that Jesus hates ALL SIN.

They are told that ALL SIN is seen the same way by Jesus.

That means he sees adultery, rape, murder, theft, dishonesty and homosexuality THE SAME WAY and those committing those sins who do not turn away are going to suffer the same punishment.

I am speaking from successful witnessing experiences. You obviously have none to speak of.
No witnessing to save souls. Just complaining from the sideline about actually doing what God calls ALL Christians to do.

For that reason I feel it is appropriate for Christians to "judge" all sin as wrong and state so publicly.

-- As I said...

Adultery is probably a hundred times more prevalent in the church than homosexuality ,

-- I would say that is likely correct....especially when you consider that huge numbers Christians are married and the Chruch isn't restricted to only those who are perfect in sinless (or else it would be a pretty empty place).

But many have (like David did with Bathsheba) commited the sin and worse, turned away from it, sought forgiveness (again) and Jesus forgave them and restored them.

NO ONE is saying that hasn't been or isn't an issue. It is talked about and discussed and many times the elders (or even just fellow Christians) in the church approach those who they know are dealing with it and share and pray with them.

Please wise up...or at least tell the whole story and not just the half that supports you.

but hypocritical Judging Christians find it much more convenient to bash the gay than the adulterers and liars because they are often doing those things themselves.

-- Says the person who makes a blanket statement about all Christians and their intentions as if he can see into their hearts and know their motivations.

And of course there are not large numbers of Christians who aren't living the lives of adulters and liars who are witnessing to homosexuals and the rest of the population of the world that is lost and needs to hear about Jesus.

Does this apply to some Christians? I have no doubt.
Is it a justifiable blanket statement against all Christians as you have said. Absolutely not.

You whine about judgement as you sit on the seat of Judgement. Pathetic.

 

[bud02]

You whine about judgement as you sit on the seat of Judgement. Pathetic.

You yourself follow a pontiff that sits in a seat and "judges" all things, who calls himself the victor of Christ.
Please remove the plank from your own eye. Pathetic doesn't even come close to describing the your apostasy.

 

[Foreigner]

Sorry Bud, but one persual of your previous post that I commented on shows that you are doing the finger pointing and judging not just me, but all Christians that actually do the work you criticize - witnessing out of love as God has called us to do.
Psssst....that means you to.

 

[Robbie]

I'm sitting here reading these posts that are proving my point as the cycle of defensiveness and judgments continue to circle around and around which is what I've watched happen over and over again... this is where this always goes... nowhere... from what I've seen this always ends in people tearing each other apart and then both parties walking away with puffed out chests and torn hearts because until we're perfect we'll always have a judgment to return for the a judgment given... and as long as we're focused on the other person's sin we'll never see our own which will in effect cause the view, "Thank you God for making me not like them" instead of, "God be merciful to me a sinner"

Like I said... I've never stopped doing anything because a christian or anyone else who saw themselves as an authority told me not to... I mean... I might have outwardly stopped doing it if I was afraid of getting caught and punished but never inwardly... and if it's still inward I'm still doing it... if I hate someone I'm a murderer... if I lust I'm an adulterer...

The only thing that's ever caused true repentance in me is Jesus changing my heart... His Kingship ruling my inner self... all judgments from outward parties has ever done was caused me to wash the outside of the cup while leaving the inside still dirty... nobody will ever stop sinning because another sinner judged them... true repentance only comes from the morning star rising in our heart and removing the darkness... in order for that to happen we have to stop trying to self justify ourselves by focusing on the sins of others... and we have to say God be merciful to me a sinner... please make us clean inside... if the inside is clean so is the outside... inward washing will never be achieved through outward judgment... only by the inward Spirit of God...

 

[bud02]

Sorry Bud, but one persual of your previous post that I commented on shows that you are doing the finger pointing and judging not just me, but all Christians that actually do the work you criticize - witnessing out of love as God has called us to do.
Psssst....that means you to.

Psssst I noticed you didn't deny your judge, the one that grants you salvation, whats his name today? Pope Benedict XVI

I'm sitting here reading these posts that are proving my point as the cycle of defensiveness and judgments continue to circle around and around which is what I've watched happen over and over again... this is where this always goes... nowhere... from what I've seen this always ends in people tearing each other apart and then both parties walking away with puffed out chests and torn hearts because until we're perfect we'll always have a judgment to return for the a judgment given... and as long as we're focused on the other person's sin we'll never see our own which will in effect cause the view, "Thank you God for making me not like them" instead of, "God be merciful to me a sinner"

Like I said... I've never stopped doing anything because a christian or anyone else who saw themselves as an authority told me not to... I mean... I might have outwardly stopped doing it if I was afraid of getting caught and punished but never inwardly... and if it's still inward I'm still doing it... if I hate someone I'm a murderer... if I lust I'm an adulterer...

The only thing that's ever caused true repentance in me is Jesus changing my heart... His Kingship ruling my inner self... all judgments from outward parties has ever done was caused me to wash the outside of the cup while leaving the inside still dirty... nobody will ever stop sinning because another sinner judged them... true repentance only comes from the morning star rising in our heart and removing the darkness... in order for that to happen we have to stop trying to self justify ourselves by focusing on the sins of others... and we have to say God be merciful to me a sinner... please make us clean inside... if the inside is clean so is the outside... inward washing will never be achieved through outward judgment... only by the inward Spirit of God...

[sup]32[/sup] “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. [sup]33[/sup] But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Christ Brings Division

[sup]34[/sup] “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. [sup]35[/sup] For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; [sup]36[/sup] and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[sup][e][/sup] [sup]37[/sup] He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. [sup]38[/sup] And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. [sup]39[/sup] He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

 

[Foreigner]

LOL Buddy, please wake up.

A quick perusal of one or two other threads show me to be one of them arguing against many teaching of the Catholic church, including the importance placed on their pope.

I am not Catholic.

But don't be discouraged. Remember, you are a winner just for trying ;)

 

[Robbie]

I agree Bud...

Christ does bring division... those who do what He says and those who don't... those who don't judge and those who do... those who don't condemn and those who do... those who love one another and those who don't... those who say, "Thank you God for not making me like other men" and those who say, "God be merciful to me a sinner"... those who bow their knee before Him and those who reject His rule...

So the topic was...

Does judging work?

I'm sitting here reading these posts that are proving my point as the cycle of defensiveness and judgments continue to circle around and around which is what I've watched happen over and over again... this is where this always goes... nowhere... from what I've seen this always ends in people tearing each other apart and then both parties walking away with puffed out chests and torn hearts because until we're perfect we'll always have a judgment to return for the a judgment given... and as long as we're focused on the other person's sin we'll never see our own which will in effect cause the view, "Thank you God for making me not like them" instead of, "God be merciful to me a sinner"

Like I said... I've never stopped doing anything because a christian or anyone else who saw themselves as an authority told me not to... I mean... I might have outwardly stopped doing it if I was afraid of getting caught and punished but never inwardly... and if it's still inward I'm still doing it... if I hate someone I'm a murderer... if I lust I'm an adulterer...

The only thing that's ever caused true repentance in me is Jesus changing my heart... His Kingship ruling my inner self... all judgments from outward parties has ever done was caused me to wash the outside of the cup while leaving the inside still dirty... nobody will ever stop sinning because another sinner judged them... true repentance only comes from the morning star rising in our heart and removing the darkness... in order for that to happen we have to stop trying to self justify ourselves by focusing on the sins of others... and we have to say God be merciful to me a sinner... please make us clean inside... if the inside is clean so is the outside... inward washing will never be achieved through outward judgment... only by the inward Spirit of God...