Does Judging Work?

[Rach1370]

Of course I cannot deny their salvation- that is, if they have it. I'm simply showing you my thinking for why it's called into question. Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling...
And I hardly consider this trashing a Christian- I'm rebuking their false beliefs- read any of Paul's letters- he did the same thing.

As I said, I don't disagree with you doctrinally. We both think that the Catholic Church has many practices that are quite frankly wrong. I'm just trying to point out that when tempers get frayed...as I've noticed with many different people (myself included!!) its too easy to loose site of any commonality. I just think if anything is going to cut through the religion...the Plus...it's going to be Jesus, and love.

I don't disagree with you. I'll knock Protestants just as much as I do Catholics. The difference is protestant churches are more autonomous so each one differs whereas the Catholic religion is just uniform heresy.

Again, I agree. We find all sorts of religious practices and sin and folly within Protestant Churches, but if they're carefully following only scripture, at the very least they don't condone it, as the Catholic Church does. I must confess this is my biggest concern about the Catholic Church...that they out right teach that this sort of thing is okay, and needed. Only Jesus is needed, and I feel that by saying otherwise is diminished the work done on the cross.

My human nature, I'd admit, comes to the surface when people so blindly follow their denomination, or church, and I- personally- hold them in contempt at times and I shouldn't. The Biblical thing to do, however, is rebuke them. Paul never sat on the sidelines and let heresy continue.

Rebuke yes. But it truly needs to be done with love. Granted, sometimes people will only hear harsh words...at times that's the only thing that will break through stubborn heresy. But I believe that both Aspen and Selene are keen to talk....they appear to be very decided and loyal to something that shouldn't be...but that just means either more persistence is needed, or they've made a choice...right or wrong, that's still theirs to make.

Absolutely. This is why we should be open to rebuke, stay in the Bible to know what's true, and be held accountable to others that can freely point out these idols that compete with Christ in our lives.

Please don't think that by advocating the need for love, that I am saying that it's okay to sit back when we see something that contends against scripture. We must stand up for what is true, because the lies are being pushed every second of every day. But we shouldn't fight fire with fire. We should speak with love and with the Bible. If people don't want to hear the truth; if they're so very content living their lie, we ultimately have to pray for them, and let go.

I guess that's where you and me differ because I don't see this.
Love for Jesus is not placing Catholic teachings over Christ.

I truly don't think anything should be placed over Christ. Nothing is more important or precious than Jesus. But here's the thing; when push comes to shove, despite how they answer questions...and everyone can mess up there; we can't know for certain that Aspen and Selene put Catholic teachings above Jesus. Only Jesus can truly know their hearts, and so I trust my Savior to make that call. Until I know any differently, these people say they love Jesus, so while I might regard them as misguided, I still think of them as my family in Christ...as I hope they do for me as well.

 

[TexUs]

I truly don't think anything should be placed over Christ. Nothing is more important or precious than Jesus. But here's the thing; when push comes to shove, despite how they answer questions...and everyone can mess up there; we can't know for certain that Aspen and Selene put Catholic teachings above Jesus. Only Jesus can truly know their hearts, and so I trust my Savior to make that call. Until I know any differently, these people say they love Jesus, so while I might regard them as misguided, I still think of them as my family in Christ...as I hope they do for me as well.

And again, that's where you and I will disagree then.
"Narrow is the gate that leads to life"... I think this applies to the so-called "church" (the organization) as well as to the world. I think the majority of those in the "church" are not in the Church.

"Did we not work for your name"... "Depart from me".

While you apparently assume "Saved unless otherwise", I take the completely opposite view. "Condemned unless otherwise".
I think pretending people in "church" are saved, back slapping, and never willing to dig deeper and examine it- is exactly why the majority of the "church" don't know Christ- and since they'll just get "atta, boy"s.... there's no hope for them to ever learn the true gospel.
Through the testing of their faith and scriptural hurdles they must overcome, only those in Christ have the power to endure that. If we don't test and weigh and push the Word-> we'll never know that they can endure. This applies to myself, as well. Yeah- stuff that challenges your notions frankly, to our human nature, SUCKS... But it does as Paul says, it makes us think about our faith, it makes us "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"... When that kind of testing does not go on, we just enable the wolves to dress as sheep and live among the flock, because we never get close enough to examine if it's a real sheep or simply wearing a mask.
So again, I assume lost, unless I have a reason to believe otherwise.

And as I've said, I've seen a lack of any of this that leads me to believe the "otherwise".

Edit- Could I be wrong? Sure. But I think "playing it safe" is continuing to denounce the false teachings and proclaim the real gospel found in the Bible. The "safe" thing to do, as I see it, is not assuming one is safe.

 

[Rach1370]

And again, that's where you and I will disagree then.
"Narrow is the gate that leads to life"... I think this applies to the so-called "church" (the organization) as well as to the world. I think the majority of those in the "church" are not in the Church.

"Did we not work for your name"... "Depart from me".

While you apparently assume "Saved unless otherwise", I take the completely opposite view. "Condemned unless otherwise".
I think pretending people in "church" are saved, back slapping, and never willing to dig deeper and examine it- is exactly why the majority of the "church" don't know Christ- and since they'll just get "atta, boy"s.... there's no hope for them to ever learn the true gospel.
Through the testing of their faith and scriptural hurdles they must overcome, only those in Christ have the power to endure that. If we don't test and weigh and push the Word-> we'll never know that they can endure. This applies to myself, as well. Yeah- stuff that challenges your notions frankly, to our human nature, SUCKS... But it does as Paul says, it makes us think about our faith, it makes us "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"... When that kind of testing does not go on, we just enable the wolves to dress as sheep and live among the flock, because we never get close enough to examine if it's a real sheep or simply wearing a mask.
So again, I assume lost, unless I have a reason to believe otherwise.

And as I've said, I've seen a lack of any of this that leads me to believe the "otherwise".

Edit- Could I be wrong? Sure. But I think "playing it safe" is continuing to denounce the false teachings and proclaim the real gospel found in the Bible. The "safe" thing to do, as I see it, is not assuming one is safe.

What is wrong with doing all that you've just said, but doing it with compassion and love? I can't help but feel that even if you doubt a Catholics salvation status, that perhaps you're still being a bit harsh. If you want to doubt their claim when they say "I love Jesus", that's your right I suppose, but even if they said "I believe god is an alien" or some other nonsense...don't they have a right to have those beliefs discussed in a non aggressive way?

I don't know. When it comes down to it, I'm not completely against speaking out against a person or their erroneous beliefs. Lets face it...some people are morons.
But I suppose I'm feeling concerned over it. There are too many on this very forum, I believe who hold to blatantly heretical, maybe even blasphemous notions. So when I see people who have most of it right, I just want to maybe encourage them towards the truth with more ....tact, then that we are having to show to some of the more....ahh, dense? Does this mean I'm happy to compromise on dodgy doctrine to make this happen....huge no!!
I think it's like my kids in a way. With one of them I find that they take absolutely no notice unless I'm waving my hands above my head, and the other...I have to stay cool, smile and just happily refuse to budge! Likewise, I believe when talking to people who are perhaps doctrinally misguided, some need to be slapped in the face with it, but with others it's just best to take it slow, be kind and loving. I just found both Selene and Aspen happy to talk when I didn't insult them. Not sure that I got anywhere, but since we're not antagonistic towards each other, it leaves the possibility that we could get somewhere. Does that make sense??

 

[TexUs]

What is wrong with doing all that you've just said, but doing it with compassion and love?

Absolutely. Paul called people wicked, evil, foolish, etc... I think somehow, if (and when) I use those terms you'd think it's unloving but... Paul did the same thing!
The truth can be stated out of love.



I don't wish anyone to hell (of course perverted views on Hell being a Mercy, maybe one wouldn't care). The way I see it one can either attack the false beliefs (Paul's method), or "lovingly" say, "I think you're wrong" and let it be. The latter most certainly won't accomplish anything.

 

[Martin W.]

When Jesus said "love one another" he was addressing Christians.

That is pretty straight forward.

For us the difficulty is defining who is a proper Christian.

Thus we argue endlessly and without love.

 

[Robbie]

That's a good point Martin...

I guess if we all took Jesus more serious when He says for us to Love even our enemies, to do good to those who hate us, to pray for those who spitefully use us, not to judge, not to condemn, etc...

That would pretty much solve a lot of the problems... which makes sense... since Jesus is the savior... haha

How's these couple questions Jesus asks....

For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?

And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others?

Pretty heavy...

 

[TexUs]

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


If you'll note, it doesn't cover disagreements or rebuking of anything, just the attitude in which you do it (I admit I'm guilty of).


I don't think it solves disagreements but tells us the attitude in which to handle it.