Permanent Rebirth

[marks]

Argue for, argue against OSAS . . . just the same, if we will only believe these simply stated Scriptures.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

IF you ARE a child of God, you WILL be like Him when you see Him. There's only one way that's going to happen as a certainty.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

IF you HAVE risen with Jesus, HAVING died with Him, you WILL appear with Him in glory. There's only one way that's going to happen as a certainty.

Which makes perfect sense, considering,

Hebrews 13:5 KJV
5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

There's really nothing you could do to "sin yourself out of salvation".

Hebrews 12:5-11 KJV
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

God WILL correct you as needed, and His correction WILL be effective. So you can see some of the foundation for this certainty. God is not going to let go of His children.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9 LITV
8) who also will confirm you until the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9) God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Is He able?

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 LITV
23) And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24) Faithful is the One calling you, who also will perform it.

Is He faithful? Will He really do it?

Yes!

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

Argue for, argue against OSAS . . . just the same, if we will only believe these simply stated Scriptures.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

IF you ARE a child of God, you WILL be like Him when you see Him. There's only one way that's going to happen as a certainty.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

IF you HAVE risen with Jesus, HAVING died with Him, you WILL appear with Him in glory. There's only one way that's going to happen as a certainty.

Which makes perfect sense, considering,

Hebrews 13:5 KJV
5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

There's really nothing you could do to "sin yourself out of salvation".

Hebrews 12:5-11 KJV
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

God WILL correct you as needed, and His correction WILL be effective. So you can see some of the foundation for this certainty. God is not going to let go of His children.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9 LITV
8) who also will confirm you until the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9) God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Is He able?

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 LITV
23) And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24) Faithful is the One calling you, who also will perform it.

Is He faithful? Will He really do it?

Yes!

Much love!

Jesus took on the role of second Adam....he died for all men and was raised for all men. This is how God's love is manifested. This is the good news to the human race.
Men however despise what is theirs won at unspeakable cost....they choose the way of Judas
Herein is the nature of deception.....to substitute God's unspeakable gift with their own logic....they go the way of Judas.....and as the wicked finally choose to perish, there will be tears in God's eyes.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Let me guess. When you were a kid , you were one of those who would always find the longest stick and poke, and poke, at that humongous paper wasp nest in the tree.
And then run screaming when the wasps decided to poke ya back.
Right? Am I right?

 

[Curtis]

To be saved requires faith, and repentance.

Repentance means to be sorry for your sins, and change your mind regarding sin, and choosing to forsake living sinfully as a lifestyle.

If at any time a believer either stops believing, as Jesus said can happen, or chooses to go back to willfully living a sinful lifestyle again, they no longer meet the salvation criteria, and thus do not remain in Christ.


Paul makes clear that AFTER we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns many times that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven.

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


IN Verse 8:7 above, Paul warns above, that having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

James agrees:

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

It all comes down to the fact that, as I saiid earlier, we are required to continue in the same faith and turning away from living willfully in sin that we had when we were saved.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh, per the relevant scripture below:


1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit.


This is just part one.

 

[Stumpmaster]

There's really nothing you could do to "sin yourself out of salvation".

Not unless you apostasise, and change sides to believe there is no Holy Spirit and no need for repentance, forgiveness and salvation.

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (7) For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: (8) But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Heb 10:26-30 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (30) For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, says the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 12:25 See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven:

 

[quietthinker]

Let me guess. When you were a kid , you were one of those who would always find the longest stick and poke, and poke, at that humongous paper wasp nest in the tree.
And then run screaming when the wasps decided to poke ya back.
Right? Am I right?

is that statement for the ether or do you have a target? :)

 

[marks]

Not unless you apostasise, and change sides to believe there is no Holy Spirit and no need for repentance, forgiveness and salvation.

How is this an option?

Considering . . .

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

There is no "unless" in this passage. It's stated in an axiomatic fashion. We are now the children of God. We will be like Him when we see Him. No, "unless you do this or that".

There is an intrinsic presupposition to this passage, that this will in fact happen to to the children of God.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

How is this an option?

Considering . . .

There is no "unless" in this passage. It's stated in an axiomatic fashion. We are now the children of God. We will be like Him when we see Him. No, "unless you do this or that".

There is an intrinsic presupposition to this passage, that this will in fact happen to to the children of God.

Much love!

You inadvisedly say, "There is nothing you can do to sin your way out of salvation", but OSASers squirm and churn about those who disagree with them as if on that score alone they have fallen from grace and lost their salvation.

Heb 10:38-39 But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” (39) But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul.

Heb 12:14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord,

Heb 12:15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it;

 

[Amazed@grace]

is that statement for the ether or do you have a target? :)

I was post #3, intending my remarks for Marks.:)
I tried to quote the OP first, but that sometimes doesn't post.

 

[MatthewG]

Can I renounce my faith?

The promises of the person whom is is in the truth of God are all to fulfilling however; can your mind change though?

Even through age and experience especially if a person is really weak in faith and has no one to support or encourage active looking towards God and Jesus Christ?

Can they become mad and angry with God? What if the person was told promises that were not real, and was mislead; then gives up on seeking For God any longer?

Can people go through motions of life? Absolutely and sway back and forth in their faith especially if they are weak?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Can I renounce my faith?

The promises of the person whom is is in the truth of God are all to fulfilling however; can your mind change though?

Even through age and experience especially if a person is really weak in faith and has no one to support or encourage active looking towards God and Jesus Christ?

Can they become mad and angry with God? What if the person was told promises that were not real, and was mislead; then gives up on seeking For God any longer?

Can people go through motions of life? Absolutely and sway back and forth in their faith especially if they are weak?

The reality is that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to purchase salvation for everyone, but it is only efficient to those who hold on to it.

Heb_3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb_3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb_4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb_6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb_10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

 

[MatthewG]

The same questions apply however: Are there people out there who drop their faith, or renounce Christ, and seek for other ways?

Yes you may know what those scriptures say @Stumpmaster and by no means could you possibly slip away, but others?

Is it possible for others? Not just us ourselves. Think about the others out there in the world.

Can they lose faith?

Can I renounce my faith?

The promises of the person whom is is in the truth of God are all to fulfilling however; can your mind change though?

Even through age and experience especially if a person is really weak in faith and has no one to support or encourage active looking towards God and Jesus Christ?

Can they become mad and angry with God? What if the person was told promises that were not real, and was mislead; then gives up on seeking For God any longer?

Can people go through motions of life? Absolutely and sway back and forth in their faith especially if they are weak?


The answer and reality is yes. Yes they can.

 

[Stumpmaster]

The same questions apply however: Are there people out there who drop their faith, or renounce Christ, and seek for other ways?

Yes you may know what those scriptures say @Stumpmaster and by no means could you possibly slip away, but others?

Is it possible for others? Not just us ourselves. Think about the others out there in the world.

Can they lose faith?

Can I renounce my faith?

The promises of the person whom is is in the truth of God are all to fulfilling however; can your mind change though?

Even through age and experience especially if a person is really weak in faith and has no one to support or encourage active looking towards God and Jesus Christ?

Can they become mad and angry with God? What if the person was told promises that were not real, and was mislead; then gives up on seeking For God any longer?

Can people go through motions of life? Absolutely and sway back and forth in their faith especially if they are weak?


The answer and reality is yes. Yes they can.

There's a big difference between those who struggle with their faith in Christ and those who once believed in Him for their salvation but depart from all that is righteous and holy to become just like those who rejected Christ and crucified Him.

Act 3:13-15 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. (14) But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, (15) and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, to which we are witnesses.

 

[MatthewG]

So what is the answer.

Does it matter how experienced or how many years a person been in the faith?

There is absolutely no way for anyone to just say; and reject God after tasting what is good from the Lord?

 

[kcnalp]

Hebrews 6:4-8 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit (Christians) 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Amen Jesus!

 

[Stumpmaster]

There is absolutely no way for anyone to just say; and reject God after tasting what is good from the Lord?

It happens. I know some who have done this. The Bible from start to finish speaks to the issue of those who who once faithful falling away.

Josephus writes a graphic account of Solomon falling into idolatry and false religion sometime around the age of 50.
http://www.ultimatebiblereferencelibrary.com/Complete_Works_of_Josephus.pdf
ANTIQUITIES of the JEWS: Book VIII, Ch. 7:5
5. But although Solomon was become the most glorious of kings, and the best beloved by God, and had exceeded in wisdom and riches those that had been rulers of the Hebrews before him, yet did not he persevere in this happy state till he died. Nay, he forsook the observation of the laws of his fathers, and came to an end no way suitable to our foregoing history of him. He grew mad in his love of women, and laid no restraint on himself in his lusts; nor was he satisfied with the women of his country alone, but he married many wives out of foreign nations; Sidontans, and Tyrians, and Ammonites, and Edomites; and he transgressed the laws of Moses, which forbade Jews to marry any but those that were of their own people. He also began to worship their gods, which he did in order to the gratification of his wives, and out of his affection for them. This very thing our legislator suspected, and so admonished us beforehand, that we should not marry women of other countries, lest we should be entangled with foreign customs, and apostatize from our own; lest we should leave off to honor our own God, and should worship their gods. But Solomon was Gllen headlong into unreasonable pleasures, and regarded not those admonitions; for when he had married seven hundred wives, (20) the daughters of princes and of eminent persons, and three hundred concubines, and those besides the king of Egypt's daughter, he soon was governed by them, till he came to imitate their practices. He was forced to give them this demonstration of his kindness and affection to them, to live according to the laws of their countries. And as he grew into years, and his reason became weaker by length of time, it was not sufficient to recall to his mind the institutions of his own country; so he still more and more contemned his own God, and continued to regard the gods that his marriages had introduced nay, before this happened, he sinned, and fell into an error about the observation of the laws, when he made the images of brazen oxen that supported the brazen sea, (21) and the images of lions about his own throne; for these he made, although it was not agreeable to piety so to do; and this he did, notwithstanding that he had his father as a most excellent and domestic pattern of virtue, and knew what a glorious character he had left behind him, because of his piety towards God. Nor did he imitate David, although God had twice appeared to him in his sleep, and exhorted him to imitate his father. So he died ingloriously. There came therefore a prophet to him, who was sent by God, and told him that his wicked actions were not concealed from God; and threatened him that he should not long rejoice in what he had done; that, indeed, the kingdom should not be taken from him while he was alive, because God had promised to his father David that he would make him his successor, but that he would take care that this should befall his son when he :was dead; not that he would withdraw all the people from him, but that he would give ten tribes to a servant of his, and leave only two tribes to David's grandson for his sake, because he loved God, and for the sake of the city of Jerusalem, wherein he should have a temple.

 

[MatthewG]

Interesting. Thank you for answering: because I do believe it still happens today.
Thank you for sharing the account of Josephus about his insights.