Bible alone

[GracePeace]

Going back to chapter one is too far. By inserting the baptismal idea from chapter one into chapter 3, this misrepresents what Jesus was saying. I already pointed out the fact that Nicodemus mentions the womb of his mother in the immediate context. This is what Jesus meant by being born of water.

Just as a quick note : John 3 had nothing to do with baptism. "Water and Spirit" : "...out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (this He spake of the Spirit)..." shows that "water" and "Spirit" are just about or completely synonymous.

 

[theefaith]

Going back to chapter one is too far. By inserting the baptismal idea from chapter one into chapter 3, this misrepresents what Jesus was saying. I already pointed out the fact that Nicodemus mentions the womb of his mother in the immediate context. This is what Jesus meant by being born of water.

he never said anything about being born of water?
But born again of water AND the spirit

 

[theefaith]

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism


(Born of God) faith and baptism

Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[theefaith]

Ephesians 2:8

• [ASV] 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
  
• [CSB] 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
  
• [DBY] 8 For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:
  
• [ESV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
  
• [KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
  
• [NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this [is] not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
  
• [NET] 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
  
• [NIV] 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
  
• [NKJV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
• [NLT] 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
  
• [RSV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--
  
• [WEB] 8 For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
  
• [YLT] 8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

Respectfully, Ephesians 2 and I disagree. It is ALL ABOUT SALVATION and who does the saving and how He saves us and why God saves.

it refers to redemption the work of God in Christ

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:




1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
The holy church is the ark of grace and salvation!

 

[amigo de christo]

Irrelevant.

another word comes to my mind . DANGEROUS . Grave DANGER . Let all that has breath
FLEE the PAPACY .

 

[Illuminator]

Going back to chapter one is too far. By inserting the baptismal idea from chapter one into chapter 3, this misrepresents what Jesus was saying. I already pointed out the fact that Nicodemus mentions the womb of his mother in the immediate context. This is what Jesus meant by being born of water.

Wrong. Jesus corrected Nicodemus's misunderstanding. Amniotic fluid does not bring a person into the Kingdom. Baptism is physical, wet water AND spirit. It is BOTH, not either/or. All the earliest Christians for centuries were unanimous on this point. Even Luther and Calvin baptized with physical, wet water. The Bible doesn't give the exact method for baptism, we rely on the teachings of the Apostles and have never changed it. "Bible alone" Christians are hopelessly divided on the matter of baptism, which doesn't look favorable for their theology.

 

[theefaith]

another word comes to my mind . DANGEROUS . Grave DANGER . Let all that has breath
FLEE the PAPACY .

where is that in scripture?

Read Isa 22

 

[amigo de christo]

I reject "faith alone".

Yeah i dont follow luther and others either .
BUT it is true , we are saved soley by Faith in Christ .
its just if our faith is dead , then its not true faith . I LIVED a dead faith once .
I could quote the gospel but i loved the darkness . I did not know Christ .
My faith was not true faith . PRAISE GOD for sending grace that flipped we around
and gave me true faith . Yep . Truth is it happend on this very day , may thirtieth
of two thousand and six . Fifteen years ago . LET THE LORD BE PRAISED .
TRUE FAITH is seen by its fruits , by its works indeed . Truth is james nor paul contradicted one another .
IT IS FAITH that does save . Its just if its mouth and not heart faith , if it has not works , THEN IT IS DEAD ,
just as dead as i once was . And its all by the grace of GOD .
The Father is HE who draws us to Christ . LET US PRAISE AND REJOICE
in the GLORIOUS , WONDEROUS and MAGNIFICENT LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

where is that in scripture?

Read Isa 22

Issaih twenty two , SURE wasnt pointing to the RCC my friend .
The RCC has done a number on your mind my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

The John quote is evidence supporting my point. I don't think Jesus means to say that one must be born in two different ways, i.e. both water and spirit. Rather, his point assumes everyone is already born of water, but only those also born of spirit will enter the kingdom of God.

It was Nicodemus who first raised the issue of a mother's womb. And so Jesus builds on that image granting that a "man is born of water", which is a reference to the birthing process when a baby emerges from the mother's womb. The liquid that accompanies the birth looks like water, which seems to be the reason why the amniotic sac is commonly called "the bag of waters."

Granting that human beings are born of water, Jesus says, one must also be born of spirit in order to see the kingdom of God. In this context, Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus why he was able to recognize that God himself was teaching the people through his son Jesus Christ. Only those "born of spirit" can understand the significance of what they saw. And this ability to see the kingdom of God is miracle in the heart of those whom God is saving. Not only did God open the eyes of Nicodemus so that he might see the kingdom of God, but God promises that Nicodemus will enter the kingdom of God, according to Jesus.

You are giving the RCC ammunition . Water was not at all aminotic fluid .
the lovely water of the WORD .
However , there is something that must be clearly understood .
If the early church did do water baptism . AND THEY DID . SO TOO must we .
Let us be hearers and doers of all things , of the Word .

 

[GracePeace]

Yeah i dont follow luther and others either .
BUT it is true , we are saved soley by Faith in Christ .
its just if our faith is dead , then its not true faith . I LIVED a dead faith once .
I could quote the gospel but i loved the darkness . I did not know Christ .
My faith was not true faith . PRAISE GOD for sending grace that flipped we around
and gave me true faith . Yep . Truth is it happend on this very day , may thirtieth
of two thousand and six . Fifteen years ago . LET THE LORD BE PRAISED .
TRUE FAITH is seen by its fruits , by its works indeed . Truth is james nor paul contradicted one another .
IT IS FAITH that does save . Its just if its mouth and not heart faith , if it has not works , THEN IT IS DEAD ,
just as dead as i once was . And its all by the grace of GOD .
The Father is HE who draws us to Christ . LET US PRAISE AND REJOICE
in the GLORIOUS , WONDEROUS and MAGNIFICENT LORD .

I wouldn't mind discussing this on an appropriate thread--I've seen way too many discussions get flipped into "OSAS", "Saved by Works or Faith", etc, and I relish order.

 

[Illuminator]

One can not claim that the council was superintended by the Holy Spirit.
I'm not defending the teaching of Arius, but his teaching was not declared a Heresy until AFTER the council.

Of course. Challenging heresies REQUIRE a council to determine if it is a heresy in the first place.

False. Jesus and the Apostles always argued from scripture, which they considered to be the final word on doctrine.

If you bother to study the OT verses that Jesus quoted, you won't find "Bible alone" theology. Jesus taught what they meant, He didn't let the verses speak for themselves.

When someone called Jesus a "good teacher", Jesus was quick to point out that the only good teacher is the Father. Mark 10:17-18

Off topic. And Jesus is referring Himself.

All of it.

The Nicene Creed, which you cannot comprehend, asserts that Jesus is fully God and fully man. You are saying this contradicts Scripture. Having a sensible discussion with you is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Wrangler]

The Nicene Creed, which you cannot comprehend, asserts that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

Trinitarians confuse not understanding with not agreeing.

You are saying this contradicts Scripture.

Not only does trinitarianism contradict Scipture, it is self-contradictory.

 

[atpollard]

the word of God is not limited to the “Bible alone” tradition is also the word of God or divine revelation and scripture can also be tradition

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
   
   Matt 3:2 the word of the Lord came to John
   By what scripture did it come ?

During Jesus’ earthly ministry, the people already had the scripture that God had provided and the traditions of men that the Priests and Pharisees had added to them. God Himself, in the person of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, spoke directly to the people as God Incarnate. During that time, he:

1. Explained the true meaning of the scripture and quoted it as the authoritative voice of God to settle matters not open to further debate.
2. Expected the people to know what scripture said and to obey and believe it.
3. Praised those that obeyed the written word of God and encouraged all to listen and obey what God had written.
4. Condemned the traditions of man that had been added to the words of God by those that loved the honor and authority and wealth and power that came with their exalted positions as Priests and Scribes and Teachers of the Law.

Where Jesus expounded upon or changed the meaning of the written word from a physical burden to a spiritual truth, His authority to do so was affirmed by signs and wonders from God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

After the ascension of Christ, the task of training up the disciples and building the 12 foundations upon which the Church stands fell to the Apostles ... appointed directly by Christ and empowered at His command by the Holy Spirit to teach the first generation and write a new Scripture for future generations. This work was authenticated by the miracles and outpouring of Spirit and Power upon them.

After the death of the Apostles, what we see is no continuation of Apostolic authority or authentication in power and spirit by those that came after. We have individuals that God clearly used and specific events that were clearly miraculous, but nothing to indicate that Holy Scripture was still open to constant addition from the breath of God. God had said what He intended to say and had preserved His message in writing for the future generations to rediscover (even as Israel constantly rediscovered the Torah and came to realize how far the nation had strayed from what God had actually commanded.)

As for men, we see nothing more or less than a rebirth of the old Jewish hierarchy of Priests speaking with God, Scribes and Teachers forming an elite class between the Priests and the People that Christ shed his blood for and who truly form His Body here on Earth. Then these new “Christian Priests and Pharisees” adopt honorific titles and places of authority (as Christ specifically forbid) and gained for themselves wealth and power. As all men that gain power, suddenly there are new “traditions of man” that must be obeyed by the “people” (defined as everyone in inferior status to the Christian elite).

I am not hating on tradition. Heck, I love the Christmas tradition of the three wise men and the little drummer boy even though I know that both are complete fictions (There were three gifts, not three wise men, that visited the Infant Jesus, not the baby in the manger ... and the Little Drummer Boy is a modern, feel-good fictional story). What I object to is human traditions that directly contradict the actual words of Jesus and the writings of the apostles themselves. Sola Scriptura means that there is no higher authority that the word of God. If “traditions” contradict “Scripture”, then Scripture wins every time.

What God said, not what men think!

 

[Illuminator]

Trinitarians confuse not understanding with not agreeing.

I know invincible ignorance when I see it.

Not only does trinitarianism contradict Scipture, it is self-contradictory.

So says the made-in-America cults. The Trinity is NOT 3 gods. Each of the divine Persons share the same divine substance, which doesn't infringe on the Oneness of God in the least.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus IS the Living Word=Scripture.

 

[Illuminator]

Sola Scriptura means that there is no higher authority that the word of God. If “traditions” contradict “Scripture”, then Scripture wins every time.

Q: In Matthew 15:1-9 (the "you make void the word of God by your tradition" passage), didn't Jesus indicate that any tradition which contradicts Scripture is false, meaning that we must test traditions by Scripture, meaning that tradition is inferior to Scripture?

A: It is true that any proposed tradition which contradicts Apostolic Scripture is a false tradition and must be rejected, but this does not make Apostolic Tradition inferior to Scripture for that reason. It is also true that any proposed scripture which contradicts Apostolic Tradition is a false scripture and must be rejected.

This was, in fact, one of the ways in which the canon of the New Testament was selected. Any scriptures which contained doctrines which were contrary to the Traditions the apostles had handed down to the Church Fathers were rejected. Between the Gnostic gospels (like the Gospel of Thomas) or Marcion's edited version of Luke and Paul's epistles, there were a lot of heretical writings that different groups wanted to see in the New Testament. But the Fathers said, "No, this contradicts the faith that was handed down to us from the apostles. Thus it must be a forged writing."

So while tradition must be tested against Scripture to see if the tradition is apostolic, it is also true that scripture must be tested against Tradition to see if the scripture is apostolic. There is complementarity here, and one mode of teaching is not automatically inferior to the other.
INFO: The sources of theology
Apostolic Tradition was the deciding factor in refuting the Arian and Nestorian heresies. Arius used "Bible alone" to assert that Jesus was created. The tradition of Arianism was non-existent. Nestorius used "Bible alone" to claim Jesus was two distinct persons. Virtually every heretic in the patristic period thumbed their noses at the Church and went by "bible alone".

 

[GISMYS_7]

Doubting God's inspired eternal livng Word is doubting Jesus.
John 1:1-5 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

 

[amigo de christo]

Doubting God's inspired eternal livng Word is doubting Jesus.
John 1:1-5 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

A real simple way of saying the simple truth , is to just say , if folks dont love all the biblical sayings of Christ and the apostels
and all sound doctrine . They dont love Christ . If they dont love Christ they dont Love The Father .
Lambs love that bible my friend . And why wouldnt we . GOD inspired the biblical truth . Now on that note ,
its time again to put those hands up and praise the glorious , the wonderous , the magnificent LORD .

 

[Wrangler]

Doubting God's inspired eternal livng Word is doubting Jesus.

I don't doubt Jesus. I doubt the trinitarian idolatry of a man, the imposing trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text.