Good Works Vs Works Of The Law
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robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)
So, by the law of God we know what sin is to God. Which are enumerated in the law as works of the flesh.
The law of God is not sin, it defines sin.
The law of God no longer defines for us in carnal ordinances what is good to do in the practise and service of His religion. All such deeds of the law of Moses are gone away with the Old Covenant.
In the Old Covenant the people of God were justified by faith, even as Abraham, but God had a law written for them to be schooled in proper religious activity and worship and sacrifice. No more. We obey the law of Christ not to sin, and we believe and follow the faith of Jesus to do good.
The works and deeds according to Law did not justify the people of God in the Old, and there are no works nor deeds of faith to do at all according to Law in the New.
No law of God ever more tells us how and in what physical manner to worship, sacrifice ourselves, eat, drink, serve God, etc...These were the works and deeds of the Law of Moses. They are gone, stripped from God's law entirely.
Now, our religion and practise of worship is purely in Spirit and in truth, without anything dictated by the law of a carnal commandment.
So, by the law of God we know what sin is to God. Which are enumerated in the law as works of the flesh.
The law of God is not sin, it defines sin.
The law of God no longer defines for us in carnal ordinances what is good to do in the practise and service of His religion. All such deeds of the law of Moses are gone away with the Old Covenant.
In the Old Covenant the people of God were justified by faith, even as Abraham, but God had a law written for them to be schooled in proper religious activity and worship and sacrifice. No more. We obey the law of Christ not to sin, and we believe and follow the faith of Jesus to do good.
The works and deeds according to Law did not justify the people of God in the Old, and there are no works nor deeds of faith to do at all according to Law in the New.
No law of God ever more tells us how and in what physical manner to worship, sacrifice ourselves, eat, drink, serve God, etc...These were the works and deeds of the Law of Moses. They are gone, stripped from God's law entirely.
Now, our religion and practise of worship is purely in Spirit and in truth, without anything dictated by the law of a carnal commandment.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets."
The righteousness of God outside the law. No longer a part of the law. The righteousness of God is not just avoiding evil. The righteousness of God is to avoid transgressing the law, and then apart from that to do good from the heart of faith.
The righteousness of God is no longer written into Law of God as that of Moses. Christians do not need the law of Christ written to them, nor reread continually, in order to know what to do to please God. IF we want to know exactly what not to do, then we read the law in Scripture of the New Covenant.
The law is still written to identify sin, but it is not written to identify good religion and practical living. The righteousness of God no more has anything to do with law, but only by faith without the law identifying what to do to please God.
Now it is manifested that the law cannot produce good works, cannot justify anyone before God. And even the good deeds of the law of Moses done faithfully only resulted in high hypocrisy and unrighteous superiority. So those good deeds of the law are wiped clean, only leaving faith to do good, with law written to identify evil only.
The righteousness of God outside the law. No longer a part of the law. The righteousness of God is not just avoiding evil. The righteousness of God is to avoid transgressing the law, and then apart from that to do good from the heart of faith.
The righteousness of God is no longer written into Law of God as that of Moses. Christians do not need the law of Christ written to them, nor reread continually, in order to know what to do to please God. IF we want to know exactly what not to do, then we read the law in Scripture of the New Covenant.
The law is still written to identify sin, but it is not written to identify good religion and practical living. The righteousness of God no more has anything to do with law, but only by faith without the law identifying what to do to please God.
Now it is manifested that the law cannot produce good works, cannot justify anyone before God. And even the good deeds of the law of Moses done faithfully only resulted in high hypocrisy and unrighteous superiority. So those good deeds of the law are wiped clean, only leaving faith to do good, with law written to identify evil only.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
I thought you said "dittoes".
I was looking forward to not having to see your error-riddled, confused, completely lost, posts anymore.
I have nothing to talk about with you.
You have proven you don't read carefully, you don't respond to all of my points, you are only in the conversation to express your same old errant ideas. No thanks!
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robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"it makes no sense, whatsoever, to define "works of law" as referring to anything less than "what ever the law says" or "the things the Law would have had the Jew to do in service of God"."
The law is exactly what it says it is. It is the written tool by which God instructs the world in what sin is to God.
The 'things of the law' no more include carnal ordinances to do in service to God.
There are no more 'deeds of the law' to do to please God. They failed in the Old to justify believers with God, and they no longer exist in the New.
The law is exactly what it says it is. It is the written tool by which God instructs the world in what sin is to God.
The 'things of the law' no more include carnal ordinances to do in service to God.
There are no more 'deeds of the law' to do to please God. They failed in the Old to justify believers with God, and they no longer exist in the New.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Romans 2:17 has God speaking directly to the Jews. True. But not to the exclusion of the Gentiles, nor in such a way as Gentiles would not know the hypocrisy being condemned. Neither would any need go to the Jew to have them explain their traditional way of thinking about Scripture, because Scripture is here exposing it: the Jews tradition of hypocrisy in matters of law and judgment.
If any need know anything about anyone else's traditions and culture, etc...in order to fully understand Scripture: Scripture will teach it, just as Romans 2 does.
Anything not written in Scripture is necessary to understand all of Scripture. Faith in Jesus and study are all that is needed for the Spirit to guide into all truth.
No Christian needs to know what any Jew that rejects Christ thinks about Scripture, much less any tradition they kept that was so-called 'based on Scripture'.
Romans 2 teaches itself. And concludes by including the Gentiles into the Covenant relationship with the Lord God of Israel: any soul born of Christ and circumcised in heart by the Spirit is now the real Jew to God. And other Scripture goes further by calling them liars, that are circumcised in flesh only, yet call themselves a Jew to God. (Rev 2:9, 3:9)
If any need know anything about anyone else's traditions and culture, etc...in order to fully understand Scripture: Scripture will teach it, just as Romans 2 does.
Anything not written in Scripture is necessary to understand all of Scripture. Faith in Jesus and study are all that is needed for the Spirit to guide into all truth.
No Christian needs to know what any Jew that rejects Christ thinks about Scripture, much less any tradition they kept that was so-called 'based on Scripture'.
Romans 2 teaches itself. And concludes by including the Gentiles into the Covenant relationship with the Lord God of Israel: any soul born of Christ and circumcised in heart by the Spirit is now the real Jew to God. And other Scripture goes further by calling them liars, that are circumcised in flesh only, yet call themselves a Jew to God. (Rev 2:9, 3:9)
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?" (Romans 4:1)
Paul was not writing in the Old Testament, but in the New. God's people today are the seed of promise to Abraham, even as Isaac was.
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Gal 4)
The apostles spoke for God as Christians, not Jews. When God had Paul write as a Jew, Scripture plainly stated so. (Phil 3)
'As pertaining to the flesh' refers to Abraham himself after the flesh. It is not a statement that God is now only to the Jews after the flesh of Abraham. Scripture goes from our father Abraham, to David, and then immediately to the New covenant circumcision of the heart by faith, who are in fact the promised seed of Abraham:
"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." (V 12)
Paul as a Christian refers to His father Abraham, even as he is ours by promise of faith.
Frankly it is a juvenile reading of Scripture to suggest Romans 4:1 means God is specifically talking to the Jews about something the Gentiles could not understand, except they be versed in the Jews religion of their own tradition.
Paul was not writing in the Old Testament, but in the New. God's people today are the seed of promise to Abraham, even as Isaac was.
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Gal 4)
The apostles spoke for God as Christians, not Jews. When God had Paul write as a Jew, Scripture plainly stated so. (Phil 3)
'As pertaining to the flesh' refers to Abraham himself after the flesh. It is not a statement that God is now only to the Jews after the flesh of Abraham. Scripture goes from our father Abraham, to David, and then immediately to the New covenant circumcision of the heart by faith, who are in fact the promised seed of Abraham:
"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." (V 12)
Paul as a Christian refers to His father Abraham, even as he is ours by promise of faith.
Frankly it is a juvenile reading of Scripture to suggest Romans 4:1 means God is specifically talking to the Jews about something the Gentiles could not understand, except they be versed in the Jews religion of their own tradition.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Rom 7:1)
Here is an actual Scripture with Paul talking directly to them that know the law. But he was not just talking to the Jews.
Paul is not referring to his 'brethren' the Jews. He is referring to us, his brethren in Christ Jesus.
"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ." (vs 4)
God is speaking to us, His people, even as He makes a direct comment to those who know the law. Which point of law from the Old Covenant is now quoted as point of Law in the New. Any reader now knows enough of the Law to understand what God is talking about pertaining to His New Covenant. Knowing either the whole law or any Jewish traditions based on that law is entirely unnecessary to fully understand what Jesus is saying to His people, His brethren, among whom He is the firstborn. (Rom 8:12)
The one and only time Paul refers to the Jews, his kinsmen after the flesh, as 'brethren', is when he states that plainly (Rom 9:3). And when he does so, he is not even talking to them as a special people, but about them as specially blind.
All Scripture is specifically written to God's people for the benefit of God's people, first the Jews in the Old Covenant, and now the Christians in the New. And the traditions made by the Jews out of the Old were just as invalid and destructive to faith of God as those made by Christians out of the New.
The best and wisest course of reading and understanding Scripture, is to stick with Scripture only, and let God reveal Himself and His Word perfectly by His Scripture read plainly and simply. And leave the garbage of men's traditions and minds out of it, and including our own, if Scripture does not prove it as so. (Acts 17)
The Bereans were more noble than the Jews that rejected Jesus, because they went to the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true, and they did not go to tradition to help confirm and understand it better.
Here is an actual Scripture with Paul talking directly to them that know the law. But he was not just talking to the Jews.
Paul is not referring to his 'brethren' the Jews. He is referring to us, his brethren in Christ Jesus.
"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ." (vs 4)
God is speaking to us, His people, even as He makes a direct comment to those who know the law. Which point of law from the Old Covenant is now quoted as point of Law in the New. Any reader now knows enough of the Law to understand what God is talking about pertaining to His New Covenant. Knowing either the whole law or any Jewish traditions based on that law is entirely unnecessary to fully understand what Jesus is saying to His people, His brethren, among whom He is the firstborn. (Rom 8:12)
The one and only time Paul refers to the Jews, his kinsmen after the flesh, as 'brethren', is when he states that plainly (Rom 9:3). And when he does so, he is not even talking to them as a special people, but about them as specially blind.
All Scripture is specifically written to God's people for the benefit of God's people, first the Jews in the Old Covenant, and now the Christians in the New. And the traditions made by the Jews out of the Old were just as invalid and destructive to faith of God as those made by Christians out of the New.
The best and wisest course of reading and understanding Scripture, is to stick with Scripture only, and let God reveal Himself and His Word perfectly by His Scripture read plainly and simply. And leave the garbage of men's traditions and minds out of it, and including our own, if Scripture does not prove it as so. (Acts 17)
The Bereans were more noble than the Jews that rejected Jesus, because they went to the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true, and they did not go to tradition to help confirm and understand it better.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
You're playing the child.
If you would learn to read what I write, you would understand that though we are finished on personal speaking terms by way of posting 'replies', I will still search what you have said and I will respond for myself on this thread, whether I agree or not. It's the same I do with everyone, except that you do not get personal replies from me.
There I have repeated myself more clearly.
So, do what you have 'threatened' and stop posting with the 'reply' button, then we can go on, and I will not feel cpompe;led to eprsonally reply in return.
And I will say this: looking into those Scriptures you touted as proof of God speaking directly to Jews of Jews' things only, and the need to go to the Jews' things of tradition, in order to better understand what God is saying is: Complete rubbish. You demonstrate a juvenile mentality in attempts to handle God's Word. I mean, just think about. Seriously. You actually think going to the very people that had Jesus crucified, in order to learn of the very traditions that they crucified Him over, is going to somehow help believers understand what God is saying to us all, that they refused to hear in the first place? C'mon boy. Grow up.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
When Paul was reproving the Galatians for turning to the works of the Law and live by it, he pointed out that they did not begin that way, but by the Spirit.
Some had come in among them to teach them the works of the law of Moses, and they were persuaded to do so.
The works and the deeds of the law of Moses ended at the cross of Christ with he Old Covenant making way for the New, which was at that exact time in history and place in Scripture.
The Galatians had begun free of doing works of the law, even as all Christians, and we are to remain free of any works of law, because there are no more to do for God and His worship and service.
If anyone preaches a necessary 'work of the church' or 'service to Christ' as law by a carnal commandment they are false apostles and teachers, usurping the Headship of Jesus over His own body, and destroying the liberty of His faith.
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." (2 Cor 9)
That is the first principle of Christ in faith: Everything we do and give is by our own faith from our own heart, without necessity by law to do so.
Our very lives of faith is our acceptable and reasonable service to Him (Rom 12:1), and if we do anything more than that, it will be by His faith and calling, not by man's rules and ministry.
We prove the good will of God in our own lives (Rom 12:1-2, 14:16-17), not in that of others, and therefore our liberty is not judged of the conscience of others who think Christians are supposed to do this, that, or the other by law.
Some had come in among them to teach them the works of the law of Moses, and they were persuaded to do so.
The works and the deeds of the law of Moses ended at the cross of Christ with he Old Covenant making way for the New, which was at that exact time in history and place in Scripture.
The Galatians had begun free of doing works of the law, even as all Christians, and we are to remain free of any works of law, because there are no more to do for God and His worship and service.
If anyone preaches a necessary 'work of the church' or 'service to Christ' as law by a carnal commandment they are false apostles and teachers, usurping the Headship of Jesus over His own body, and destroying the liberty of His faith.
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." (2 Cor 9)
That is the first principle of Christ in faith: Everything we do and give is by our own faith from our own heart, without necessity by law to do so.
Our very lives of faith is our acceptable and reasonable service to Him (Rom 12:1), and if we do anything more than that, it will be by His faith and calling, not by man's rules and ministry.
We prove the good will of God in our own lives (Rom 12:1-2, 14:16-17), not in that of others, and therefore our liberty is not judged of the conscience of others who think Christians are supposed to do this, that, or the other by law.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
@Hidden In Him
Sorry, that talk turned out to be a dud in my opinion. I went and looked at another presentation of his and it was much worse--extremely tedious and I couldn't stop falling asleep.
LoL. It happens, bud. I understand. Here's to people who don't make our eyes roll back in our heads, LoL.
I'll take an intelligent heretic over a dim-witted "Christian" any day of the week, at least as far as stimulating conversation is concerned.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
All right, will wait for discussion on Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 to resume.LoL. It happens, bud. I understand. Here's to people who don't make our eyes roll back in our heads, LoL.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
LOL! I know, but I thought the implication was unavoidable if I wanted to try to push you to continue the convo.
is patience a work of the law?
- 1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
- 2 Thessalonians 1:4
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience andfaith in all your persecutions andtribulations that ye endure:
- 1 Timothy 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
- Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
that’s salvation by the by
All scripture is inspired! It says nothing about context!
how does the context make Jesus not the way the truth and the life in that verse? Or not the resurrection and the life in that one?
what’s the contexts of Jn 3:5 except baptismal regeneration
we’re not the works of the law nailed to the cross?
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary tous, and took it out of the way, nailing it tohis cross;
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