Bible alone

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus is firstborn among many brethren, firstborn from among the dead, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You." How could people be born again yet not have their sins removed? To be born again means you are In Christ not In Adam and you have been rescued from the bondage to sin. 1) How could they be in Christ without having sins removed? 2) How could they be in Christ, rescued from bondage to Sin's Law Romans 8:2, and yet be under the Tutor Galatians 3, be under Law, whereby sin "masters" them Romans 6:14 and Romans 7:7-25? How did they get in Christ without the faith which had not yet arrived?

John says "whoever believes in Him" could receive the right to become a child of God--how could they believe before He arrived?

Elsewhere, it says "those in darkness saw a great light" and "we had each gone our own way"--are these pictures of people who are born of God? They're in darkness? Those born of God are light aren't they?

Sins aren't removed yet are they? They are forgiven. Right? They are only "removed", if you will, at the resurrection. Anyway, Paul says that their sins were already forgiven. Refer to Romans 3:25.

I think the difference between our views can be summed up in my belief that Christ's death on the cross transcends time, applicable to future believers as well as believers in the past. His blood covers every believer throughout time.

It's hard to see in the English, but Paul makes this point in his epistle to the Ephesians. In the Greek it is a bit easier to see, not much though. (smile)

The following is my translation of Ephesians 1:3-10 The part in bold makes the point that God has committed himself to oversee the gathering of all believers who ever lived under Jesus Christ.

Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us by Christ with every spiritual1 blessing associated with heavenly things.2 Just as he chose us with him, before the foundation of the world and by love, to stand before him holy and blameless, he predestined us to be his adopted sons3 through Jesus Christ according to his benevolent purpose to the praise of the virtue4 of his grace. Specifically, he graced us with the beloved, by whom we have redemption though his blood, and the forgiveness of our sins in proportion to the abundance of his grace. He lavished on us all wisdom and insight, making known to us his hidden purpose, consistent with his benevolence, which he set before himself5 to oversee the gathering of the full compliment6 of all believers throughout history, bringing all the adopted sons together in Christ, whether they live beyond the horizon, or on the land.7

1 Associated with both the spirit of man and the Holy Spirit. Spiritual blessings are such graces and favors that affect the inner man, i.e. to be sanctified by the Holy Spirit. See Ephesians 3:16

2 See John 3:12: theological ideas and divine activities

3 Adoption as practiced in ancient Rome to satisfy the need for a male heir. A Roman legal declaration whereby wealth and property are pledged to a young man as a heritage.

4Lit. “glory” external splendor figurative of virtue, and honor

5 The aorist is middle, suggesting that God had no help and retained no council. (see verse 1:11) lit. “him”

6 A quota, as with the recruitment of a crew to man a ship.

7Idiomatic reference to the Gentiles “upon the heavens” and the Jews “on the land.”

 

[GracePeace]

Sins aren't removed yet are they? They are forgiven. Right? They are only "removed", if you will, at the resurrection. Anyway, Paul says that their sins were already forgiven. Refer to Romans 3:25.

1. It's not one or the other it's both : the forgiveness only comes after the process of atonement is executed (eg, Leviticus 4:26). Part of these substitutionary sacrifices involves at times transferring sins from people to sacrifices Leviticus 16:21. The forgiveness doesn't come until all that is done.
2. Hebrews 10:4 says it was impossible that the blood of bulls and goats could remove sins doesn't it?

I think the difference between our views can be summed up in my belief that Christ's death on the cross transcends time, applicable to future believers as well as believers in the past. His blood covers every believer throughout time.

That is a popular view but again Hebrews 11:40 and Hebrews 12:23 don't permit me to believe that.

It's hard to see in the English, but Paul makes this point in his epistle to the Ephesians. In the Greek it is a bit easier to see, not much though. (smile)

The following is my translation of Ephesians 1:3-10 The part in bold makes the point that God has committed himself to oversee the gathering of all believers who ever lived under Jesus Christ.

Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us by Christ with every spiritual1 blessing associated with heavenly things.2 Just as he chose us with him, before the foundation of the world and by love, to stand before him holy and blameless, he predestined us to be his adopted sons3 through Jesus Christ according to his benevolent purpose to the praise of the virtue4 of his grace. Specifically, he graced us with the beloved, by whom we have redemption though his blood, and the forgiveness of our sins in proportion to the abundance of his grace. He lavished on us all wisdom and insight, making known to us his hidden purpose, consistent with his benevolence, which he set before himself5 to oversee the gathering of the full compliment6 of all believers throughout history, bringing all the adopted sons together in Christ, whether they live beyond the horizon, or on the land.7

1 Associated with both the spirit of man and the Holy Spirit. Spiritual blessings are such graces and favors that affect the inner man, i.e. to be sanctified by the Holy Spirit. See Ephesians 3:16

2 See John 3:12: theological ideas and divine activities

3 Adoption as practiced in ancient Rome to satisfy the need for a male heir. A Roman legal declaration whereby wealth and property are pledged to a young man as a heritage.

4Lit. “glory” external splendor figurative of virtue, and honor

5 The aorist is middle, suggesting that God had no help and retained no council. (see verse 1:11) lit. “him”

6 A quota, as with the recruitment of a crew to man a ship.

7Idiomatic reference to the Gentiles “upon the heavens” and the Jews “on the land.”

Even this interpretation doesn't seem to be problematic for me--actually, it sounds exactly like what I'm quoting from Hebrews.

 

[theefaith]

Mark 16:16 is a very brief summary of the gospel. And typical of short summaries, it isn't meant to be an exhaustive report. To get the full picture, one must read other passages of the New Testament to form a complete picture.

Ok include
Acts 2:38-39 22:16 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ok include
Acts 2:38-39 22:16 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21

Isn't it your turn? Don't you want to argue that baptism is a sacrament? I don't think the New Testament teaches sacramentalism. It would be up to you to provide evidence to prove your case.

You see, commandments regarding Baptism alone are not evidence of sacramentalism. Neither Jesus nor the apostles suggest that baptism is a means to grace. To the contrary, Baptism is for ME not for God. He doesn't care if I get into the water. He doesn't need me to get into the water before he can favor me or bless me. Baptism is something I do for myself, a testament and memorial of the day I first began my walk with the Lord. God doesn't need me to get baptized, I need it.

Jesus says, "If you confess me before men, I will confess you before my father." What better way to confess Jesus before men than to publicly get into the baptismal pool or the Jordan River?

The theological perspective suggesting that God needs me to give him a physical sign of my devotion harkens back to a darker time when men were still struggling with how to make contact with the creator. Then Jesus came as the Light of the world and he taught us to worship God in Spirit. God doesn't want our physical manifestations, he wants our heart.

 

[theefaith]

Isn't it your turn? Don't you want to argue that baptism is a sacrament? I don't think the New Testament teaches sacramentalism. It would be up to you to provide evidence to prove your case.

You see, commandments regarding Baptism alone are not evidence of sacramentalism. Neither Jesus nor the apostles suggest that baptism is a means to grace. To the contrary, Baptism is for ME not for God. He doesn't care if I get into the water. He doesn't need me to get into the water before he can favor me or bless me. Baptism is something I do for myself, a testament and memorial of the day I first began my walk with the Lord. God doesn't need me to get baptized, I need it.

Jesus says, "If you confess me before men, I will confess you before my father." What better way to confess Jesus before men than to publicly get into the baptismal pool or the Jordan River?

The theological perspective suggesting that God needs me to give him a physical sign of my devotion harkens back to a darker time when men were still struggling with how to make contact with the creator. Then Jesus came as the Light of the world and he taught us to worship God in Spirit. God doesn't want our physical manifestations, he wants our heart.

I never reject faith! Only “faith alone”!

faith and the sacraments is biblical
Mk 16:16 acts 2:38-39 acts 8 etc

Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical!

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!


Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments!

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

the church is a sacrament
A sign of salvation
The ark of salvation

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

as the ark of Noah was a type of the holy church

 

[CadyandZoe]

I never reject faith! Only “faith alone”!

Paul never argued for faith alone, and neither do I. But Jesus and the Apostles never argued for or even suggested the doctrine of the sacraments. Is there such a thing as Christian baptism? Yes. Is it a sacrament? No. As God said, he doesn't care about religion. He never did.

Yes, our slogan is "faith alone" but we don't literally mean faith at the exclusion of all else. We are using the term "faith" to represent all aspects of a proper inwardness, not only including faith, but also contrition, penitence, humility, honesty, trust, love of the truth, love of neighbor, love of God and attitudes such as these.

Christ's holy church is not a religion, or a religious institution such as the RCC. His holy church are the congregation of all Jesus-followers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and walking as he walked. They don't practice magic, witchcraft, or paganism.

 

[theefaith]

Paul never argued for faith alone, and neither do I. But Jesus and the Apostles never argued for or even suggested the doctrine of the sacraments. Is there such a thing as Christian baptism? Yes. Is it a sacrament? No. As God said, he doesn't care about religion. He never did.

Yes, our slogan is "faith alone" but we don't literally mean faith at the exclusion of all else. We are using the term "faith" to represent all aspects of a proper inwardness, not only including faith, but also contrition, penitence, humility, honesty, trust, love of the truth, love of neighbor, love of God and attitudes such as these.

Christ's holy church is not a religion, or a religious institution such as the RCC. His holy church are the congregation of all Jesus-followers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and walking as he walked. They don't practice magic, witchcraft, or paganism.

It’s a covenant! How can you say it’s not a religion?

religion: set of beliefs
Religion: what man owes to for creating and redeeming him, including adoration worship etc.

 

[theefaith]

Paul never argued for faith alone, and neither do I. But Jesus and the Apostles never argued for or even suggested the doctrine of the sacraments. Is there such a thing as Christian baptism? Yes. Is it a sacrament? No. As God said, he doesn't care about religion. He never did.

Yes, our slogan is "faith alone" but we don't literally mean faith at the exclusion of all else. We are using the term "faith" to represent all aspects of a proper inwardness, not only including faith, but also contrition, penitence, humility, honesty, trust, love of the truth, love of neighbor, love of God and attitudes such as these.

Christ's holy church is not a religion, or a religious institution such as the RCC. His holy church are the congregation of all Jesus-followers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and walking as he walked. They don't practice magic, witchcraft, or paganism.

and the sacrifice of Christ and His sacraments are the very heart of the faith!
The very essence of the holy church!
Man united to God in holy communion of the new and eternal covenant!

Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery
Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

 

[CadyandZoe]

It’s a covenant! How can you say it’s not a religion?

religion: set of beliefs
Religion: what man owes to for creating and redeeming him, including adoration worship etc.

I understand that the "loose" definition of "religion" is a set of beliefs. But I am using the actual definition, which is not a set of beliefs but a set of practices. You spoke of adoration, which is an attitude, not a practice. Religions dictate means, methods, and practices which indicate what must be done in order to give expression to that adoration. Some churches sing hymns. Others repeat the word "halleluiah" over and over again. Others hold a praise service. While others stare at bread. (Monstrance).

True adoration, however, is heart felt. And true religion isn't staring at bread, it's feeding the poor and taking care of widows and orphans. James 1:27.

Human kind invented religion because humans need religion. The innovation of religion is motivated by a strong instinct to petition God for divine aide. Even new born Christians seem to have this impulse. After conversion, many new Christians ask, "what now? What does God want me to do? What must I do to please God? Religious praxis is one answer: burn some incense, repeat some model prayers, stand under a shower of holy water, eat a wafer, sip some wine, confess your sins to a guy in a closet, genuflect in front of a pew. It's all for show and God is not impressed. Jesus taught us to abandon religion and begin to worship God in spirit. Stop all the foolishness and goofy practices. God doesn't need them and he doesn't like them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

and the sacrifice of Christ and His sacraments are the very heart of the faith!
The very essence of the holy church!
Man united to God in holy communion of the new and eternal covenant!

Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery
Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Sorry, sacraments are pagan practices. I don't recommend them. Calling something sacred doesn't make it so.

 

[GracePeace]

@CadyandZoe I hope you won't forget to respond.

 

[Enoch111]

...and the sacrifice of Christ and His sacraments are the very heart of the faith!

The only problem is that there is a world of difference between the Catholic Mass and the Lord's Supper. In fact the Mass violates what Scripture says about the sacrifice of Christ. That it was ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER.

 

[Wrangler]

The only problem is that there is a world of difference between the Catholic Mass and the Lord's Supper. In fact the Mass violates what Scripture says about the sacrifice of Christ. That it was ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER.

I forgot about this one. Can you clarify? Thanks.

 

[theefaith]

I understand that the "loose" definition of "religion" is a set of beliefs. But I am using the actual definition, which is not a set of beliefs but a set of practices. You spoke of adoration, which is an attitude, not a practice. Religions dictate means, methods, and practices which indicate what must be done in order to give expression to that adoration. Some churches sing hymns. Others repeat the word "halleluiah" over and over again. Others hold a praise service. While others stare at bread. (Monstrance).

True adoration, however, is heart felt. And true religion isn't staring at bread, it's feeding the poor and taking care of widows and orphans. James 1:27.

Human kind invented religion because humans need religion. The innovation of religion is motivated by a strong instinct to petition God for divine aide. Even new born Christians seem to have this impulse. After conversion, many new Christians ask, "what now? What does God want me to do? What must I do to please God? Religious praxis is one answer: burn some incense, repeat some model prayers, stand under a shower of holy water, eat a wafer, sip some wine, confess your sins to a guy in a closet, genuflect in front of a pew. It's all for show and God is not impressed. Jesus taught us to abandon religion and begin to worship God in spirit. Stop all the foolishness and goofy practices. God doesn't need them and he doesn't like them.

God revealed and commanded religion and worship

Faith and practices
And temple and ark of the covenant and morals
And the new covenant sacrifice of Christ is the only worship in spirit and truth
The propitiatory sacrifice of the mass

 

[theefaith]

Heb 8:
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

not man but God

 

[theefaith]

Heb 9
1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

service of God not man

they also had them that means we do too

 

[Philip James]

Sorry, sacraments are pagan practices. I don't recommend them. Calling something sacred doesn't make it so.

Hi Cady,

The Sacraments, we recieved from Christ through the apostles.

This is why you find them at the centre of the life of the Church in every 2000 year old apostolic community.

The Chrurch in Rome, the Church in Alexandria (and the Church in Constantinople) are 3 2000 year old living witnesses to this Truth,

Where is the 2000 year old community that says otherwise?

Peace be with you!

 

[theefaith]

Sorry, sacraments are pagan practices. I don't recommend them. Calling something sacred doesn't make it so.

shows you have nothing
No faith
No hope
No charity
No religion
No covenant
No sacrifice
No salvation
No savior

 

[theefaith]

All you have Is a bible study and you can’t handle that

 

[Wrangler]

The Sacraments, we recieved from Christ through the apostles.

Like Confession & Confirmation? Is that in Scripture?