No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[amigo de christo]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/12/18/an-emerging-new-alliance-democracies/

we might wanna keep an eye ball on this one my friends . Just read it real slowly . I got the feeling the kings of the east
are not gonna like this TEN D alliance . Do take note , TEN .

 

[Oseas]

THE Temple of GOD Revelation 4 and 5. IS THE NEW TEMPLE that will be built in the last days.
Ezekiel 37:26-28

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary(temple) in the midst of them for "evermore."

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

What you are imagining has nothing to do with the secret and sealed book that was with GOD, whose content neither JESUS knew, and had not been revealed to anyone before.

There will be no build any temple in Jerusalem in this last decade of the Devil's world, which the Most High GOD will destroy from now on, day after day, and has already started to destroy. Revelation 11:v.18

 

[Oseas]

we might wanna keep an eye ball on this one my friends . Just read it real slowly . I got the feeling the kings of the east
are not gonna like this TEN D alliance . Do take note , TEN .

They are not going anywhere politically, or economicaly, or whatever they intend to do, because from now on fire will fall from heaven like Sodom and Gomorrah and they will perish. It's like the waves of the sea, until here it will come, from here it will not pass.

 

[amigo de christo]

They are not going anywhere politically, or economicaly, or whatever they intend to do, because from now on fire will fall from heaven like Sodom and Gomorrah and they will perish. It's like the waves of the sea, until here it will come, from here it will not pass.

Oh the wrath of GOD shall indeed come upon this world .

 

[Truth7t7]

Christians throughout the ages have recognized the starting point of the Jewish "punishment" was in 70 AD. The Early Church certainly recognized this--they just couldn't have anticipated how many years Israel's punishment would continue in history before Christ comes back to restore the nation.

No, the "Great Tribulation" Jesus defined as *beginning* in 70 AD. And this was very important because Jesus had proclaimed that his own religion would surpass and supersede the Jewish religion of the Law of Moses. The temple would be completely and forever destroyed.

Those who say the temple will be restored seem to ignore this. I'm speaking of some Dispensationalists here.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The above defines what the Great Tribulation is, according to Jesus. As I said, it is a Jewish Punishment that began in 70 AD with the collapse of Judaism and continues until the end of the age. Nobody should deny this.

In Love, Your opinion is in error, as stated The Antichrist, Abomination Of Desolation, And Great Tribulation, Are Future Events Unfulfilled

Tied Tigether By The "Future" Time Stamp

The Abomination of Desolation in verse 15, directly causes the Great Tribulation in verse 21, and the Second Coming is seen immediately after this tribulation "Future"

Those that see the Abomination in verse 15, will also see the Great Tribulation verse 21, and will also see the Second Coming in verses 29-30, the (Same Generation) "Future"

Matthew 24:15-21 & 29-30KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In Love, Your opinion is in error, as stated The Antichrist, Abomination Of Desolation, And Great Tribulation, Are Future Events Unfulfilled

I appreciate the "in love" part! :) My response should be received in the same spirit, even though I will disagree with you. My wish is not that you conform to my view, nor that I conform to your view, but rather, that we both conform to whatever Jesus' view is. I'm sure we can both agree on that!

Tied Tigether By The "Future" Time Stamp

There is no "time stamp" apart from your claim that there is one!

The Abomination of Desolation in verse 15, directly causes the Great Tribulation in verse 21, and the Second Coming is seen immediately after this tribulation "Future"

Yes, the 2nd Coming follows the "Great Tribulation," which is the historical punishment of Israel in the NT era. However, the AoD was the ancient Roman Army that came up against Jerusalem 66-70 AD. That is when the historical Jewish Punishment began. And that Punishment Jesus defined as an *exile.* The Jews have been exiled in what is called the "Jewish Diaspora" for nearly 2000 years! This is why it is called the "great" tribulation, or the "great distress." All 3 synoptic versions mention this, and all 3 synoptic versions focus on the fall of the temple as the event that precipitates this great Jewish punishment in history.

One of the 3 deadly sins is human pride. If you lay this aside, maybe you will see that I'm telling you the truth?

Those that see the Abomination in verse 15, will also see the Great Tribulation verse 21, and will also see the Second Coming in verses 29-30, the (Same Generation) "Future"

You're right that some would see the AoD, and Jesus indicated that it would be his Apostles who see this. Actually, he was referring to their *generation,* who would see this. Most of them would be martyred before that took place.

But Jesus did *not* say the same Apostles would see the 2nd Coming. Obviously, that's impossible!

 

[Curtis]

This is where most Prophecy teachers get it wrong. It is an assumption that comes from a linear reading of the book of Revelation, But the truth as I have come to see it is that Revelation is not linear, but a series of overlapping visions. Without getting into a long description of this, i use Matthew 24 as my timeline, Which clearly states the beginning of the end is the abomination of desolation. (Matthew 24:14-15)

The abomination of desolation is first revealed by Daniel, and it’s in the middle of the 70th week.

And the tribulation is divided in half - there’s general tribulation and then great tribulation wherein the mark of the beast and death for not taking it occurs for 42 months.

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 proves the mid trib rapture right after the abomination of desolation.

Jesus describes general tribulation in Matthew 24, then describes the abomination of desolation in verse 15, and then states as the next step, for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, which is the last 42 months.

Revelation 12 confirms the mid trib point because Israel needs His warning to flee when the AoD occurs, and flies into the desert for 3.5 years.

Verses 29 - 31 states that His coming will be after the tribulation, not great tribulation, putting His coming at the mid trib point in time.

Notice Jesus denotes there’s a difference by saying both “the tribulation”, and “great tribulation” occurs during the tribulation.

 

[Truth7t7]

I appreciate the "in love" part! :) My response should be received in the same spirit, even though I will disagree with you. My wish is not that you conform to my view, nor that I conform to your view, but rather, that we both conform to whatever Jesus' view is. I'm sure we can both agree on that!



There is no "time stamp" apart from your claim that there is one!



Yes, the 2nd Coming follows the "Great Tribulation," which is the historical punishment of Israel in the NT era. However, the AoD was the ancient Roman Army that came up against Jerusalem 66-70 AD. That is when the historical Jewish Punishment began. And that Punishment Jesus defined as an *exile.* The Jews have been exiled in what is called the "Jewish Diaspora" for nearly 2000 years! This is why it is called the "great" tribulation, or the "great distress." All 3 synoptic versions mention this, and all 3 synoptic versions focus on the fall of the temple as the event that precipitates this great Jewish punishment in history.

One of the 3 deadly sins is human pride. If you lay this aside, maybe you will see that I'm telling you the truth?



You're right that some would see the AoD, and Jesus indicated that it would be his Apostles who see this. Actually, he was referring to their *generation,* who would see this. Most of them would be martyred before that took place.

But Jesus did *not* say the same Apostles would see the 2nd Coming. Obviously, that's impossible!

You teach the standard (Historicism) found in reformed eschatology

We will strongly disagree

You cant have the AOD in 70AD, and a run through the park tribulation over 2,000 years, with the words "Immediately After" conforming to this eschatology in a prolonged tribulation, no sale on this one

The dead give away is the future generation that will see the AOD will also see the Great Tribulation and Second Coming, your eschatology stops dead in its tracks on this fact alone, as the scripture clearly states below

No need to beat the dead horse, Im well aquainted with (Historicism) in the (Partial Preterist) teaching, we will disagree

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:33:34KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[Timtofly]

We should not do harm to the book of Revelation by re-writing this story in Pretrib form. Pretrib is not in the Bible, and this simple idea of escaping some episodes of divine judgment do not warrant a whole-scale change to a new doctrine.

Post trib is not either. The church is constantly leaving before, in , and after every day tribulation. The church leaves before the Trumpets and Thunders.

 

[Truth7t7]

Post trib is not either. The church is constantly leaving before, in , and after every day tribulation. The church leaves before the Trumpets and Thunders.

The Church Is Caught Up And Resurrected Immediately After The Tribulation, At The Second Coming

 

[GISMYS_7]

After The rapture (catching up" of born-again believers then starts the great Tribulation, Then Second Coming of Jesus to earth to defeat all evil and to set up His kingdom.

 

[Truth7t7]

After The rapture (catching up" of born-again believers then starts the great Tribulation, Then Second Coming of Jesus to earth to defeat all evil and to set up His kingdom.

The Church Is Caught Up And Resurrected Immediately After The Tribulation, At The Second Coming

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[GISMYS_7]

God does NOT pour out His wrath on His family. THINK!!!
God's Word says pray that you be counted worthy to escape God's wrath on this evil world ="" that is why the rapture"" and also we aren't appointed to God's wrath!!!PTL.

 

[Truth7t7]

God does NOT pour out His wrath on His family. THINK!!!
God's Word says pray that you be counted worthy to escape God's wrath on this evil world ="" that is why the rapture"" and also we aren't appointed to God's wrath!!!PTL.

God didn't pour plagues in Egypt upon the Hebrews either, did the firstborn of the Hebrews die (No) it's going to be the same in the future Great Tribulation

The tribulation is going to be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the (Two Witness) of Revelation Chapter 11, will torment the Antichrist and wicked world through plagues in Gods judgement

Exodus 12:29-30KJV
29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Post trib is not either. The church is constantly leaving before, in , and after every day tribulation. The church leaves before the Trumpets and Thunders.

The Church normally goes through the tribulations of this fallen world *every day.* Sometimes the Church goes through horrendous events brought on not by themselves, but by wicked people. It is the task of the Church to go through these times because it is God's will and because God always wishes to leave a testimony to Himself on the earth.

There is no indication in the Bible, nor in the book of Revelation, that the Church departs the earth before the Trumpets and the Thunders. The Trumpet Judgments, depicting God's Wrath in various forms, are designed not to judge the Church, but rather, the ungodly world. The Church remains on earth as a testimony to God's righteousness and to what God requires in terms of repentance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You teach the standard (Historicism) found in reformed eschatology
We will strongly disagree
You cant have the AOD in 70AD, and a run through the park tribulation over 2,000 years, with the words "Immediately After" conforming to this eschatology in a prolonged tribulation, no sale on this one

Of course you can, and you give no reason whatsoever why I can't see it that way. You just assert that I can't. Why? What you really seem to be saying is that you can't "fathom it" because you've heard it one way so long in your own personal group that it seems beyond your comprehension. It just can't be because it just "can't be!"

It's the same thing with the Pretrib Rapture. One cannot actually grow up with and spend so much time with Pretribbers without it seeming anathema to say anything else. It's as if the entire history of the church is corrupt because in your own narrow experience you think what has been going on for the last 200 years is all that should ever count in Church history. Are we heretics because we don't believe in the Pretrib Rapture?

The dead give away is the future generation that will see the AOD will also see the Great Tribulation and Second Coming, your eschatology stops dead in its tracks on this fact alone, as the scripture clearly states below

As I said, a future generation will see Christ's Coming, but this is *never* said to be the same generation as the one that sees the AoD!

No need to beat the dead horse, Im well aquainted with (Historicism) in the (Partial Preterist) teaching, we will disagree

The trouble is, brother, I'm not a Partial Preterist. But as to the notion of historical interpretations, would you say that no Bible Prophecies have been fulfilled in Jesus' 1st Coming? You must admit that Jesus fulfilled Bible Prophecy when he was born of a virgin, died for sin, and rose from the dead. If so, you believe in historically-fulfilled Bible Prophecies!

Are you then a Partial Preterist? No? Well, neither am I brother, and I'd appreciate you not slandering me by claiming I am.

I hold to a position that is oftten associated with PP. But I'm a Futurist that simply shares with PP the belief that much--not all--of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 66-70 AD. The Church Fathers were *not* PPs, and yet believed that the AoD was the Roman Army, or something close to that in the 1st Century. I would agree with them. And Dan 9.26-27 suggests that, as well. Please give it another thought.

I do wish to emphasize that I don't believe the AoD exhausted the prophecy of the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, prophesied in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus indicated the AoD was just the beginning of that period. In other words, the coming of the Romans 66-70 AD only began the period of Great Distress to happen to the Jewish People. The Great Tribulation of the Jewish People is to last until the end of the age, when Jesus comes back to salvage Israel from Judaism.

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course you can, and you give no reason whatsoever why I can't see it that way. You just assert that I can't. Why? What you really seem to be saying is that you can't "fathom it" because you've heard it one way so long in your own personal group that it seems beyond your comprehension. It just can't be because it just "can't be!"

It's the same thing with the Pretrib Rapture. One cannot actually grow up with and spend so much time with Pretribbers without it seeming anathema to say anything else. It's as if the entire history of the church is corrupt because in your own narrow experience you think what has been going on for the last 200 years is all that should ever count in Church history. Are we heretics because we don't believe in the Pretrib Rapture?



As I said, a future generation will see Christ's Coming, but this is *never* said to be the same generation as the one that sees the AoD!



The trouble is, brother, I'm not a Partial Preterist. But as to the notion of historical interpretations, would you say that no Bible Prophecies have been fulfilled in Jesus' 1st Coming? You must admit that Jesus fulfilled Bible Prophecy when he was born of a virgin, died for sin, and rose from the dead. If so, you believe in historically-fulfilled Bible Prophecies!

Are you then a Partial Preterist? No? Well, neither am I brother, and I'd appreciate you not slandering me by claiming I am.

I hold to a position that is oftten associated with PP. But I'm a Futurist that simply shares with PP the belief that much--not all--of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 66-70 AD. The Church Fathers were *not* PPs, and yet believed that the AoD was the Roman Army, or something close to that in the 1st Century. I would agree with them. And Dan 9.26-27 suggests that, as well. Please give it another thought.

I do wish to emphasize that I don't believe the AoD exhausted the prophecy of the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, prophesied in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus indicated the AoD was just the beginning of that period. In other words, the coming of the Romans 66-70 AD only began the period of Great Distress to happen to the Jewish People. The Great Tribulation of the Jewish People is to last until the end of the age, when Jesus comes back to salvage Israel from Judaism.

We Will Disagree, Once Again The Scripture Below Clearly Shows That The AOD, Great Tribulation, And Second Coming, Will Be Contained Within The Same Generation That Witnesses The Events

To Claim The AOD Takes Place In 70AD, With The Great Tribulation Being 2,000 Over History Is Not What My Eys See In Scripture

The Time Will Be A "Season" Not "Millenniums"

Matthew 24:32-34KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The Events of 70AD Didnt Culminate In The Second Coming, There Is No Gap Of "Millenniums" Seen Below

Luke 21:20-28KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm hoping that you look, objectively, at the argument, Pretrib makes, that the Church *cannot* be here during the time of God's Wrath, ie during the Reign of Antichrist. Clearly, you admit that the Jewish Church is indeed here!

No such thing as a Jewish Church. There is not a Christian Church either. The church are those redeemed from Abel to the last person raptured at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. They are Adam's family living in Paradise prepared for all of Adam's offspring who choose to live in that heavenly city.


The sheep, wheat, and 144k are firstfruits to live on earth in the earthly Jerusalem. Their offspring populate the whole earth for 1000 years. Those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 are the ruling forbears over billions of offspring.

 

[Timtofly]

You've already admitted the weakness in this argument--all Christians, by their faith, do good works. Never are we told that the 2 Witnesses give special and different non-Church instruction to these Jewish Christians. Very, very weak argument, and completely built on unstated assumptions.

The church is redeemed by the Cross and glorified. Those elected during the GT are to populate the earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The church is redeemed by the Cross and glorified. Those elected during the GT are to populate the earth.

Being that we are both Premill, we can agree on that statement! :)