No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[Keraz]

Who is this woman?

The answer is of course included. She who brought forth the man-child. She who is directed to flee to the wilderness. She is Israel.

The 'man child' represents Jesus and those people who follow Him.
Thinking that Israel is just those who claim that name, is a very basic error. A claim must be substantiated and the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel cannot prove their descent from Judah. They are in fact, a mixed race people, who reject Jesus and even God, as over half of the Jews are atheists.

They now face Judgment and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

 

[marks]

The 'man child' represents Jesus and those people who follow Him.
Thinking that Israel is just those who claim that name, is a very basic error. A claim must be substantiated and the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel cannot prove their descent from Judah. They are in fact, a mixed race people, who reject Jesus and even God, as over half of the Jews are atheists.

They now face Judgment and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

This man child,

Revelation 12:5 KJV
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:13 KJV
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This child will rule the nations, which the overcome will share with Christ. This child was caught up to God, to His throne, and we share that in Christ. However, this man child was born from this woman, and we are born from God.

The man child does not fit us, NT Christians, but it does fit Jesus Christ. He was born from the woman, and we are born from God.

God knows those who are His chosen people. Zechariah prophesied 2/3 to be killed, but all the remainder will be saved when Jesus returns.

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

Actually i would rather have the entire church believing in the pretrib rapture, because they would then be the first to see the need to repent, so I do not malign that position even though i disagree with it. That being said, many of those people will fall away when faced with the Mark of the beast.

In Luke 21, after Jesus describes the great tribulation events, He says in verse 36, to pray that they be found worthy to escape all those things.

The church goes through general tribulation for 3.5 years and is taken out just before the mark is given - the great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble, and they will have to deal with the false messiah they’ve accepted.

 

[David H.]

In Luke 21, after Jesus describes the great tribulation events, He says in verse 36, to pray that they be found worthy to escape all those things.

The church goes through general tribulation for 3.5 years and is taken out just before the mark is given - the great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble, and they will have to deal with the false messiah they’ve accepted.

I Agree with the 3.5 years, but i believe the Mark of the Beast will be what divides the wheat and the tares. The man of sin is revealed first and commits the abomination of desolation which is the start of the tribulation (Matthew 24:14-15, 2 Thessalonians 2:3) The beast will make war on the saints and overcome them.... (Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:21-22) The worst -place you can be is living in unbelief when this happens, or worse yet in partial belief deceiving yourself that you will escape these things.

The Escape all those things of Luke is in reference to the wrath of God Read Luke 21:34-36 in its full context, the escape spoken about is not escape from tribulation as the rapture teachers teach, but escape from being exposed as one of the tares.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Yes, Jesus said the Kingdom was mystically present with Israel because he was also physically present among them! None of this Jesus meant to imply that the Kingdom wasn't physically coming. That's why he said it was *near,* and not *here!*

You obviously don't believe in a future Kingdom then? If so, you're the one who's missing out.

I do believe the Kingdom will come, it's a work in progress bro.
The Kingdom is here now and has been for 2000 years, yet ones who were born again have been and are born again now, only the majority will be after the second coming.

Jesus does not come back in the flesh. fact is what is needed is the Holy Spirit, as without the Holy Spirit you have nothing at all.
Jesus came in the flesh they all seen him, but that made zip impression on anyone bar for Nathaniel who was the epitome of what being a true Israelite truly is all about. Israel serves Christ Jesus and the truly worthy Israelite truly serves God and what was it the Jesus said to Nathaniel, yes bingo ! their you have it. Nathaniel was Saved ! born again in Jesus Christ who is the Holy Spirit not to mention the only way to the Father.

So if one does not have the Holy Spirit you have nothing at all.

So what is the rod of Iron all about ? can one force one to believe or have faith ?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

That Jesus lands on earth and rules the nations with a rod of iron at His second coming is beyond crystal clear in scripture. That is a literal and physical kingdom.

What do you suspect the Rod of Iron truly is ? I believe such is Spiritually speaking. not of this worldly perceptions may be.

 

[Daniel Veler]

Yes being spared God's wrath was told to the faithful church, Philadelphia. But isn't the wrath of God released in the Seven Bowls? Therefore, if the Seventh Trumpet is the last trumpet, then we will be spared God's wrath - but that would also void Post-trib views as well.
Other Pre-tribbers say the Church is not seen after Rev. 4:1, when the angel tells John to "come up here" - as if that is symbolic for the Church.
There is a lot of made up stuff, a half dozen or more views with each having their supportive verses to back them up.
I am a Mid- Tribber but would honestly prefer the Pre-trib view to be correct.
I see Jesus returning as He ascended and every eye seeing Him. He instructs his angels to separate the wheat from the chaff, that's the rapture. Two men in a field, one is taken and the other left behind. The Jews see Him and immediately realize their error and mourn. This could be the fulfillment of Romans 11 and prior to this, The Two Witnesses who prophesy/evangelize the Jews and the world as well logically come 1260 days prior to Christ. It may be that the last trumpet sounds simultaneously when these Two rise from the dead?
And then there is the issue about a Temple having to be built, which to me would be counterproductive and an abomination to God's plan
to save a remnant Jewish population, especially since He is sending Two Witnesses to evangelize them. This temple could not be holy, since we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. So the Antichrist standing in a holy place to me disproves a Jewish Temple. A Christian church would be a holy place with a holy congregation.

So many of us think we have it figured out and I have say, after many years of study, I don't.

You read in part and see in part. Their is is truth in the events you talk about but you have seen them with understand. If you had you would know the last part of the church are those who get victory over the beast and are seen with Christ when he returns with his church.

 

[Truth7t7]

What do you suspect the Rod of Iron truly is ? I believe such is Spiritually speaking. not of this worldly perceptions may be.

Rod Of Iron = Tool Of Destruction

It's simple showing Jesus Christ will destroy the wicked at his return, as a potter destroys his vessels, the rod of iron is a tool of destruction, not a scepter to rule as dispensationalism "FalselyTeaches"

Sad part us, you can show them as clearly seen below,and theywillcontinue to teach otherwise

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Curtis]

Rod Of Iron = Tool Of Destruction

It's simple showing Jesus Christ will destroy the wicked at his return, as a potter destroys his vessels, the rod of iron is a tool of destruction, not a scepter to rule as dispensationalism "FalselyTeaches"

Sad part us, you can show them as clearly seen below,and theywillcontinue to teach otherwise

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Your obvious problem is, the sword is the tool of destruction. The rod of iron means struct discipline is imposed on the nations - the rod represents disciplining as in Spare THE ROD, and spoil the child.

 

[Curtis]

I Agree with the 3.5 years, but i believe the Mark of the Beast will be what divides the wheat and the tares. The man of sin is revealed first and commits the abomination of desolation which is the start of the tribulation (Matthew 24:14-15, 2 Thessalonians 2:3) The beast will make war on the saints and overcome them.... (Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:21-22) The worst -place you can be is living in unbelief when this happens, or worse yet in partial belief deceiving yourself that you will escape these things.

The Escape all those things of Luke is in reference to the wrath of God Read Luke 21:34-36 in its full context, the escape spoken about is not escape from tribulation as the rapture teachers teach, but escape from being exposed as one of the tares.

The abomination of desolation is the middle of Daniel 70th week, not the beginning of it.

Jesus described much more than just God’s wrath, then says we can escape ALL THOSE THINGS coming on the world. - not just one aspect of what He described

11. (Luk 21:34-38) How to live in the last days.

“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

a. We must take heed because there are certain things that will make one unprepared - carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life. Each of these things can make us unprepared for the day of Jesus’ return.

i. Carousing literally refers to the hangover that comes after a time of intoxication.

b. Watch therefore: We must watch. Anyone who watches will never be caught in a snare - our failure to watch keeps us from being ready.

c. We must pray always, that we may be found worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass. The good news in Jesus is that we don’t have to go through this calamity that is coming. He will take as many as are ready before this calamity begins.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I do believe the Kingdom will come, it's a work in progress bro.
The Kingdom is here now and has been for 2000 years, yet ones who were born again have been and are born again now, only the majority will be after the second coming.

I believe the Kingdom of God has drawn near spiritually, and we can experience some of its powers. We cannot experience yet its eschatological powers. We have a mission to do, and we can do it. But we can't do it without suffering to some degree in this world. We are not in the Kingdom physically yet.

Jesus does not come back in the flesh. fact is what is needed is the Holy Spirit, as without the Holy Spirit you have nothing at all.
Jesus came in the flesh they all seen him, but that made zip impression on anyone bar for Nathaniel who was the epitome of what being a true Israelite truly is all about. Israel serves Christ Jesus and the truly worthy Israelite truly serves God and what was it the Jesus said to Nathaniel, yes bingo ! their you have it. Nathaniel was Saved ! born again in Jesus Christ who is the Holy Spirit not to mention the only way to the Father.

So if one does not have the Holy Spirit you have nothing at all.

So what is the rod of Iron all about ? can one force one to believe or have faith ?

I appreciate what you're saying about the Spirit, which is oh so important. However, I also believe it's important that Jesus comes back in the flesh. That's because what he does is what gives us hope to do the same. If he doesn't come back in the flesh, neither do we. And it's pretty important that we do come back in the flesh, to complete and to populate the New Earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think I could argue in favor of post trib as well as most who believe the view. However, I find it has irreconcilable conflicts with Scripture.

All the arguments about what we call those who are the believers, the people of God, during "the tribulation", to me are secondary to the question of the rapture.

The rapture is of those who are "In Christ". That designation is never used for anyone during the time described in the Revelation. Make of that what you will, the real point to me is that whether or not there are believers on earth before or after some certain thing, that does not establish whehter that certain thing could or could not happen. In this instance, the church can be raptured, and then new people come to believe, and the prophecies continue to be fulfilled. I don't think it's that simply though.

Please try to avoid characterizing my arguments as the same as others you've heard, I don't think they are. I'm not "classic Calvary Chapel pre-trib", and I don't argue it that way.

Much love!

Since I don't know what you believe, I am indeed treating Pretrib arguments. You simply need to disagree where you see fit to. I don't think any worse of you no matter what you believe. You seem like a fine Christian.

I do see Christians, as I said, in the "Tribulation Period." And if they are Christians, they are "in Christ."

The thing I find difficult to comprehend is that Christians go away in a Rapture, and then suddenly new-born Christians are supposed to find Christ, without the Church to witness to them, mature in difficult circumstances without elders to help them, and then immediate find maturity to stand up to Antichristian deception in the world. And they say a countless multitude grows up in these insane, Antichristian conditions in the course of just 7 years?

Impossible! If God has been working to evangelize the world, through us, for 2000 years, how are a bunch of green, new-born Christians going to stand up against the Devil for 7 years, without the help of the Church?

Not going to happen. It's purely a myth! None of it makes sense. It sounds like a sci fi, which I do like. But I don't like sci fi's pretending to be Scriptural truth. That's why I'm concerned.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why for my sake? I don't refer to it that way myself. I will mention the great tribulation, although more properly I'd say the time of greatest tribulation. As I've said I like to stay as close to the Biblical terminology as I can.

Much love!

I don't call it the "Tribulation Period" because in Luke 21 Jesus defines it as the Jewish Diaspora of the present age, beginning in 70 AD and ending at the Coming of Christ. That is indeed the great tribulation in Israel's history--the longest punishment in Israel's history.

I use the term for the sake of most people here because they have been taught the term "Great Tribulation" refers only to the last 7 years or the last 3.5 years of the current age, when Antichrist persecutes the Church.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your obvious problem is, the sword is the tool of destruction. The rod of iron means struct discipline is imposed on the nations - the rod represents disciplining as in Spare THE ROD, and spoil the child.

A Potter Dosent Discipline His Vessels, He Destroys Them, Just As The Scripture Teaches Below

In Revelation 19:15, The Lord Is Coming Upon The World With Firceness And Wrath

Rod Of Iron = Tool Of Destruction

It's simple showing Jesus Christ will destroy the wicked at his return, as a potter destroys his vessels, the rod of iron is a tool of destruction, not a scepter to rule as dispensationalism "FalselyTeaches"

Sad part is, you can show them as clearly seen below, and they will continue to teach otherwise

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't call it the "Tribulation Period" because in Luke 21 Jesus defines it as the Jewish Diaspora of the present age, beginning in 70 AD and ending at the Coming of Christ. That is indeed the great tribulation in Israel's history--the longest punishment in Israel's history.

I use the term for the sake of most people here because they have been taught the term "Great Tribulation" refers only to the last 7 years or the last 3.5 years of the current age, when Antichrist persecutes the Church.

Preterism in 70AD fulfillment, false teaching in error

The Antichrist, Abomination Of Desolation, And Great Tribulation, Are Future Events Unfulfilled

 

[Randy Kluth]

Preterism in 70AD fulfillment, false teaching in error

The Antichrist, Abomination Of Desolation, And Great Tribulation, Are Future Events Unfulfilled

Christians throughout the ages have recognized the starting point of the Jewish "punishment" was in 70 AD. The Early Church certainly recognized this--they just couldn't have anticipated how many years Israel's punishment would continue in history before Christ comes back to restore the nation.

No, the "Great Tribulation" Jesus defined as *beginning* in 70 AD. And this was very important because Jesus had proclaimed that his own religion would surpass and supersede the Jewish religion of the Law of Moses. The temple would be completely and forever destroyed.

Those who say the temple will be restored seem to ignore this. I'm speaking of some Dispensationalists here.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The above defines what the Great Tribulation is, according to Jesus. As I said, it is a Jewish Punishment that began in 70 AD with the collapse of Judaism and continues until the end of the age. Nobody should deny this.

 

[David H.]

The abomination of desolation is the middle of Daniel 70th week, not the beginning of it.

This is where most Prophecy teachers get it wrong. It is an assumption that comes from a linear reading of the book of Revelation, But the truth as I have come to see it is that Revelation is not linear, but a series of overlapping visions. Without getting into a long description of this, i use Matthew 24 as my timeline, Which clearly states the beginning of the end is the abomination of desolation. (Matthew 24:14-15)

 

[GISMYS_7]

Measure The Temple (Revelation 11:1-2)

• Measure The Temple (11:1). John is instructed to measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. John...
• No need to measure the temple if it is not real!! Think!!

 

[Oseas]

Measure The Temple (Revelation 11:1-2)

• Measure The Temple (11:1). John is instructed to measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. John...
• No need to measure the temple if it is not real!! Think!!

My dear, I did think about as you do. Didn't you read the verse 19? you should do, no? And not to create doubts about the Word of the Lord, what is that?

God the Father gave His secret book sealed with 7 seals to JESUS - book of Revelation - and do you think He and JESUS would have said something wrong?

Furthermore, remember, it was around year 95 AD and JESUS showed to John things which should come to pass. And see, please, the environment in which John was when he measured the Temple of GOD reading Revelation 4 and 5.

 

[GISMYS_7]

THE Temple of GOD Revelation 4 and 5. IS THE NEW TEMPLE that will be built in the last days.
Ezekiel 37:26-28

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary(temple) in the midst of them for "evermore."

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.