Signs of the Times: The Great Apostasy

[revturmoil]

[/color]You're still missing Paul's time reference. There's a difference between the time when "that Wicked" one does his evil working prior to Christ's return, and the time when "that Wicked" one is REVEALED on the day of Christ's return. Here's the order given by those phrases...

1. "a falling away first"
2. "that man of sin be revealed"

So WHEN does that "man of sin" do his evil work? Ans: DURING NUMBER 1, the same time of the apostasy. That's the point I was making.

What evil working is that man of sin to do prior to Christ's coming when he is revealed?

2 Thess.2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That time when that man of sin does that evil working is PRIOR to Christ's return.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
(KJV)

The mystery of iniquity is already at work, but not that man of sin yet; not until that he that is withholds him is taken out of the way. That he is Michael, for that's about Dan.12:1 and Rev.12:7-9.

The way I read that passage indicates to me that the apostasia happens before the revelation of the man of sin.
It's what causes him to enter the scene.
The word first means first in place in any succession of things.
AND, verse 6 say's an apostasy is what withholds him.

I have no doubt that it would extend into his reign some but the falling away appears to be what withholds his revelation.

 

[veteran]

The way I read that passage indicates to me that the apostasia happens before the revelation of the man of sin.
It's what causes him to enter the scene.
The word first means

first in place in any succession of things.
AND, verse 6 say's an apostasy is what withholds him.

I have no doubt that it would extend into his reign some but the falling away appears to be what withholds his revelation.

No, the falling away event is caused by that false one's working. It's the false one working according to Satan with all power (dunamis) and signs and lying wonders that will cause many to believe "a lie". That's what the "strong delusion" is about.

II Th 2:6
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(KJV)

The one doing the withholding is the Archangel Michael. Christ revealed this through Daniel (Dan.12:1) and John (Rev.12:7-9).

Paul gives this verse 6 to show that we (Christians) are to recognize who that man of sin is when he is revealed in his time. In his time means the time of his false working to deceive.

But for the deceived subject to the "strong delusion" that will believe the lie, they will not recognize that false one for who he is. For the deceived, that false one will not be revealed for who he is until Christ returns to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. Then, the deceived who fell away to worship that false one will definitely know who it was they wrongly bowed in false worship to; it will be revealed to those when our Lord Jesus Christ does appear after that false working.

II Th 2:8-11
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJV)

Did Paul say the "strong delusion" is about 'many lies'? No, he said A lie, a specific lie. What particular lie?

He told us in the 2 Thess.2:3-4 verses with a false one coming to exalt himself above all that is worshipped or called God, so that he AS God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What Paul is teaching in that 2 Thessalonians 2 chapter is not really that difficult IF his whole message in all the verses are received together as a whole. He is simply warning about a particular false one that is to come just prior to Christ's return. And that false one will play God with all power of Satan to cause as many that will to be deceived into believing the lie that that false one is our LORD. That's the "strong delusion" and "a lie" which Paul mentioned there. God is Who is sending that "strong delusion" upon those who refuse to listen to Him in His Word.

 

[revturmoil]

No, the falling away event is caused by that false one's working. It's the false one working according to Satan with all power (dunamis) and signs and lying wonders that will cause many to believe "a lie". That's what the "strong delusion" is about.

II Th 2:6
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(KJV)

The one doing the withholding is the Archangel Michael. Christ revealed this through Daniel (Dan.12:1) and John (Rev.12:7-9).

Paul gives this verse 6 to show that we (Christians) are to recognize who that man of sin is when he is revealed in his time. In his time means the time of his false working to deceive.

But for the deceived subject to the "strong delusion" that will believe the lie, they will not recognize that false one for who he is. For the deceived, that false one will not be revealed for who he is until Christ returns to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. Then, the deceived who fell away to worship that false one will definitely know who it was they wrongly bowed in false worship to; it will be revealed to those when our Lord Jesus Christ does appear after that false working.

II Th 2:8-11
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJV)

Did Paul say the "strong delusion" is about 'many lies'? No, he said A lie, a specific lie. What particular lie?

He told us in the 2 Thess.2:3-4 verses with a false one coming to exalt himself above all that is worshipped or called God, so that he AS God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What Paul is teaching in that 2 Thessalonians 2 chapter is not really that difficult IF his whole message in all the verses are received together as a whole. He is simply warning about a particular false one that is to come just prior to Christ's return. And that false one will play God with all power of Satan to cause as many that will to be deceived into believing the lie that that false one is our LORD. That's the "strong delusion" and "a lie" which Paul mentioned there. God is Who is sending that "strong delusion" upon those who refuse to listen to Him in His Word.

The way I see the chapter is...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word and that I highlighted is also the word then....then that man of sin be revealed.
I think verse 3 is quite simple and clear. Let no man deceive you, the day of Christ and the gathering shall not come except there first comes an apostasy, and (then) the man of sin be revealed.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul informs them that he already told them 'these things'. He already told them that an apostasy must first come before the man of sin is revealed because he said, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

What withholdeth or detains. Not who! What withholdeth is refering to the apostasy. Not the one who lets.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I do agree that the one who lets is Michael. And the word let is the same word as withholdeth. So I can't say that I know for sure about this. I have to leave it open to interpretation.

That seems to be the best interpretation so far but I could change my mind. I haven't studied verse 7-17 very much.

And I do agree that the apostasy could extend into the man of sin's reign. But I think the scripture is clear that the apostasy comes first because that's what seems to detains him.

Some commentators say that this is one of the most difficult chapters in the bible to understand.

One thing I do know for sure. Apostasy isn't a defection from truth or a backslidden condition.

 

[[email protected]]

What most of the above posts seem to indicate is a consensus that the apostacy is not upon us.

Despite undeniable evidence (sources quoted earlier) of the massive decline of the church/Christendom, many seem to insist that Biblical prophecy indicates a set of circumstances, calendar period or religious group other than our own.

If the Great Apostacy does not point to a decline in the church, then what? Is there another world wide group that is promoting the gospel of Christ? If there is, then I'm not aware of it.

Prophecy indicates that the rise of AC will follow the Apostacy. We SEE before us today an aggressive Muslim effort to promote by means both peaceful and violent the rule of the Muslim messiah figure al-Mahdi. Muslim prophecy regarding this character parallel Christian prophecies of the anti-Christ.

The problem as I see it is not one of scholarship, but of recognition and acceptance that the days in which we now live are the most perilous times since the foundation of the church and possibly of western civilization itself. If so, then the return of Jesus to us is very very very close indeed.

I believe that events are now under way which are sweeping us into an uncertain future. The implications should be seriously considered, not simply hidden or ignored by academic chaff.

 

[veteran]

The way I see the chapter is...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word and that I highlighted is also the word then....then that man of sin be revealed.
I think verse 3 is quite simple and clear. Let no man deceive you, the day of Christ and the gathering shall not come except there first comes an apostasy, and (then) the man of sin be revealed.

That Greek word kai for "and" could also have been translated to 'therefore', 'so then', 'even', 'also', and 'too' (see Strong's no.2532). That's why we can't base a time just off those words by themselves. The Greek word proton for "first" also can mean 'beginning' or 'firstly' since it's an adverb and not given as a ordinal like 'mia' which means first like numerical one (Strongs no.4412 vs. 3391). So if we base our understanding on that kind of reasoning we'll never get to Paul's simple warning about the "strong delusion" in that chapter as a whole.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul informs them that he already told them 'these things'. He already told them that an apostasy must first come before the man of sin is revealed because he said, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

What Paul had already told them in his first warning was about being gathered to Christ on the day of The LORD when Christ comes as a thief in the night (compare 1 Thess.4 and 5 about the times and the seasons). So what he was doing in his second Epistle to the Thessalonians was being more specific of the timing and order of those events. It's because there were some false brethren among the Thessalonians that were distorting that understanding, their even using fake letters passed off as being written by the Apostles (2 Thess.2:1-2).

Nowhere in that did Apostle Paul teach that the great apostasy must first happen before the man of sin is revealed. Paul said that when the deceived say, "...Peace and safety, then sudden destruction will cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child..." (1 Thess.5:3). And he then said that we are not to be in darkness, that "that day" should overtake us as a thief, directly relating the time of the great apostasy to the tribulation time and all the way up to Christ's coming.

What

withholdeth or detains. Not who! What withholdeth is refering to the apostasy. Not the one who lets.

The Greek word for "what" is simply the definite article 'ho', and can mean 'the, this, that, he, she, it' (see Strong's no. 3588). The KJV translators could have just as easily translated it to "he" or "it". The event of withholding is about Michael withholding per the end of Dan.10 concerning the event of Dan.12:1 (i.e., the tribulation). And that's certainly NOT the apostasy who is being withheld, but the man of sin Paul mentioned that is being withheld until he is revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I do agree that the one who lets is Michael. And the word let is the same word as withholdeth. So I can't say that I know for sure about this. I have to leave it open to interpretation.

That seems to be the best interpretation so far but I could change my mind. I haven't studied verse 7-17 very much.

Look back to the end of Dan.10 about Michael and also Dan.12:1 which is when Michael will 'stand up' (make a stand), and then the great tribulation is referred to. That's what the withholding of that man of sin is about. It's about a certain he being withheld until the time Dan.12:1 speaks of, which is the same time our Lord Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24 of a time of trouble on earth that has never been before, nor will there ever be a time like it on earth again, i.e., the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus mentioned.

And I do agree that the apostasy could extend into the man of sin's reign. But I think the scripture is clear that the apostasy comes first because that's what seems to detains him.

Some commentators say that this is one of the most difficult chapters in the bible to understand.

One thing I do know for sure. Apostasy isn't a defection from truth or a backslidden condition.

If you stay with all of Paul's Message in that 2 Thess.2 chapter, and compare it to our Lord's Revelation, the prophecies of the abomination of desolation our Lord gave and in the Book of Daniel, you should eventually come to understand the great apostasy is caused by "that Wicked" one when he is revealed, which is when he will sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, exalting himself above ALL that is worshipped or called God.

What does Paul mean in 2 Thess.2:4 with "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that worshipped"? It's about "that Wicked" one proclaiming himself to all religions on earth that he is the God they have been waiting for and expecting.

As for your last statement, that "apostasy is not a defection from truth or a backslidden condition", you couldn't be more wrong. To be an apostate especially means a defection from what one held to or believed. It's also the word "forsake" in Acts 21:21. It's especially about religious apostasy with Paul's example in 2 Thess.2. It's especially the same category of falling away that historical Israel did in falling away from God, and He used the analogy of calling them spiritual harlots for doing so (like Ezek.23 with the two sister harlots).

This is WHY our Lord Jesus and Paul especially (in 2 Cor.11), used the 'virgin' analogies applied to Christians, which such symbols originate in the Old Testament prophets about fallen Israel. Those who don't understand all that I can understand why 2 Thess.2 is so difficult for them.

 

[revturmoil]

What most of the above posts seem to indicate is a consensus that the apostacy is not upon us.

There's no reason to assume the apostasy is worldwide. We shouldn't assume it to be global or even in America. I can make the claim that it would be in the Middle-East because I believe in an Assyrian anti-christ with a limited empire of ten Mid-Eastern countries.

Despite undeniable evidence (sources quoted earlier) of the massive decline of the church/Christendom, many seem to insist that Biblical prophecy indicates a set of circumstances, calendar period or religious group other than our own.

If the Great Apostacy does not point to a decline in the church, then what? Is there another world wide group that is promoting the gospel of Christ? If there is, then I'm not aware of it.

What is it about 2 Thes. 2 that makes anyone assume that it has anything to do with the church? That goes right along with the idea that the harlot is the apostate church and there's no scriptural support for it. It has all to do with the Protestant stigmatization of the RCC. And there really is no definite proof that it's a religious apostasy. It could be political and religious which Islam is anyway. I think that what is going on in the Arab world today is this apostasy.

Prophecy indicates that the rise of AC will follow the Apostacy. We SEE before us today an aggressive Muslim effort to promote by means both peaceful and violent the rule of the Muslim messiah figure al-Mahdi. Muslim prophecy regarding this character parallel Christian prophecies of the anti-Christ.

That could be. I think the Mahdi is the false prophet and that could be bin Laden. The anti-christ could be the dajjal who is the Islamic anti-christ. In other words, the Islamic anti-christ is the same person as the biblical man of sin.

The problem as I see it is not one of scholarship, but of recognition and acceptance that the days in which we now live are the most perilous times since the foundation of the church and possibly of western civilization itself. If so, then the return of Jesus to us is very very very close indeed.

My advice. Prepare for tribulation!

I believe that events are now under way which are sweeping us into an uncertain future. The implications should be seriously considered, not simply hidden or ignored by academic chaff.

I take it pretty serious.

 

[aspen]

Betcha in 20 years we will be all looking for a Chinese Antichrist......

 

[revturmoil]

Betcha in 20 years we will be all looking for a Chinese Antichrist......

Only the Buddist or those who don't know how to understand the biblical criteria for the man of sin.

It's not that difficult to figure out as long as you're able to do your own unbiased and objective homework. You've got to forget about what you've been taught and leave your preconceived ideas behind and be willing to consider other views. If you believe what the majority of the experts teach you will certainly be misled. Maybe a thread on the Assyrian anti-christ would help you see what I mean. Ever notice how you never hear about the Assyrian from people like Lindsey and Hagee and how little evidence they provide to support their theory? The idea of an Assyrian anti-christ was believed by several like Newton, Dake's, and Arthur Pink. It's clear by the passages in Isaiah that the Assyrian comes in the end and Christ destroys him in the end., And right now conditions are gearing up for the entrance of an Assyrian in the Arab world because I think It is going into apostasy. But that's my opinion..

 

[Foreigner]

Betcha in 20 years we will be all looking for a Chinese Antichrist......

-- I'll take that bet.

 

[[email protected]]

There's no reason to assume the apostasy is worldwide. We shouldn't assume it to be global or even in America. I can make the claim that it would be in the Middle-East because I believe in an Assyrian anti-christ with a limited empire of ten Mid-Eastern countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi

The Assyrian anti-christ was predicted by Nostradamus. There is some confusion as to whether the French prediction means Assyria, Syria or simply Arabia. All of Nostradamus' stuff is equally confusing......until after the event.

The messiah that is predicted and worked for by shiite Muslims is al-Mahdi or the 12th Imam. It is believed that his point of origin will be Quraish/Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Muslims that work and pray for his coming are called twelvers.
* * *
Statistics indicate that there has been a steady decline in church attendance everywhere, meaning world wide. I thought about inserting a graph or list of figures, but there is a lot of controversy and not a little confusion regarding poll results.

For example, Gallup Polls state that regular church attendance in America as of 2010 stands at 43% of professing Christians. Unfortunately, people tend to exaggerate their answers in everything from sex to salvation and actual head counts put attendance closer to 18%. Many pastors agree with the lower figure. The next question is whether these figures represent ALL Christians or is separated between Catholics and Protestants. If separated for Catholics in America only, the per centage is much lower. In France, Catholics are the largest group of Christians. Their official attendance poll (not head count) hovers around twenty percent. However you may examine the numbers, attendance of all types of Christians in all countries has dropped considerably in the past twenty years. Projections for the next twenty to thirty years show attendance to drop by half current levels.

The pope recently mentioned the alarming drop in church attendance in Europe. Protestant Bible colleges and missionary schools now list Europe as a possible mission field because of the drop in numbers there. I know this because my son has been exposed to the numbers while attending his school. I know this because our family has hosted foreign exchange students from the Phillipines, Germany, Spain and France. The stories they tell us are all the same. Everywhere.

Church attendance and mission work in South America has dropped below that of Europe. I've been there and I've talked to missionaries that have come out of the area. People there are returning to the old religion and the old ways. S.A. religion was an influence on the people who became the Philistines/Baal worshippers in the Bible. It's a long story,but the influence can be traced and it's on the rebound.

Central America remains open to mission work and those two week working visits (that are little more than spiritual slumming) that a lot of churchs like to sponsor. Stories I've heard from the Guatemalan highlands indicate that this pleasant situation may not last much longer.

It is not recommended that anyone visit the islands of the Caribbean which are politically unstable. Public officials in nations like Haiti make extra money from extracting bribes from health workers and Christians who try to do good. If a Christian aid worker is unable to pay the proper bribe, they are jailed. A bribe used to be around three hundred dollars a head when I visited the area years ago. I imagine its gone up since then.

In North Africa and the Middle East, Christians are under attack as Muslim ethnic cleansing begins in earnest. There is no voice raised on their behalf, anywhere. ANYWHERE. Apparently Christians have chosen to deny that their bretheren are suffering and dying for the faith there. Not even lip service is being given to it. If this isn't the face of apostacy, then somebody please tell me what is.

In China the church has been underground for years. There are no accurate figures available. Stories I've heard from mission workers there indicate that Christianity no longer has the attraction it once enjoyed. The increase in work hours (not necessarily wealth) and lack of leisure time may have something to do with it. There is no government persecution that I know of, but then NOBODY would care anyway would they?

Central and Southern Africa is pretty much up for grabs. The entire region is politically unstable (due to Muslim religious influence and radical activity). Missionaries are no longer encouraged to go there. A few tiny areas remain open to mission work (Kenya & Nigeria), but they are dwindling.

Bottom Line is that Christendom is on the defensive everywhere. As I wrote before, if the current MASSIVE GLOBAL apostacy of the church isn't what the Biblical prophecy is indicating then I'd like to read WHAT IS. I read a lot of protestations, but no one is able to quote testimony, numbers, and statements by leaders that indicate otherwise.

Finally, the greatest evidence that the Great Apostacy is upon us is that Christians are so busy DENYING IT, choosing instead to make flippant jokes about real situations, real numbers, real statements from leaders who know what they're talking about and real suffering. Islam is on the rise worldwide and is predicted to exceed the number of all other religions COMBINED in just a few years. Muslims are making NO JOKES about their plans at all!

The Great Apostacy is here folks and we are neck deep in it.

The next event is the rise in interest in the Muslim twelfth imam al-Mahdi (see link above). Coincidence? I think not.

 

[[email protected]]

Betcha in 20 years we will be all looking for a Chinese Antichrist......

Revelation predicts that during the Great Tribulation beheading will be the common form of execution.
Is it a coincidence that the same is true for Islam?

Chinese indeed.

If you're exchanging bets, put your head on the line.

 

[revturmoil]

The messiah that is predicted and worked for by shiite Muslims is al-Mahdi or the 12th Imam. It is believed that his point of origin will be Quraish/Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Muslims that work and pray for his coming are called twelvers.
* * *

Bin Laden is considering if he's the Mahdi and has since changed his name to Osama bin Muhammad bin Laden. He's from Saudi.

Statistics indicate that there has been a steady decline in church attendance everywhere, meaning world wide. I thought about inserting a graph or list of figures, but there is a lot of controversy and not a little confusion regarding poll results.

I don't doubt that at all that attendance is down but that's going to change when tribulation comes. There's nothing in the chapter that indicates the church is implied in the apostasy. It would have something to do with the man of sin not the church. Look at the correct definition of it. It's not a defection from truth. It's a defection from and an abandonment of your religion regardless of what religion it is...and accepting something else! It's not being backslidding, lukewarm, or heresey. There's no such thing as the apostate church! To be apostate the church would have to abandon Christianity and accept another religion and that's not going to happen.

Bottom Line is that Christendom is on the defensive everywhere. As I wrote before, if the current MASSIVE GLOBAL apostacy of the church isn't what the Biblical prophecy is indicating then I'd like to read WHAT IS. I read a lot of protestations, but no one is able to quote testimony, numbers, and statements by leaders that indicate otherwise.

I can only urge you to read 2 Thes. 2 and tell me what it is that indicates to you that it has anything to do with the church. Especially considering the correct definition of the term. You are not going to get much difference of opinion on apsoatsy because it's the RCC that inspired the Protestant's to assume the apostasy is within the church. All I can say is look at what Baker's say's about it in my previous post, and consider what is taking place in the Mid-East. This just could be it!

The question is...Where's the evidence that the church is implied in the apostasy? It's just not there. It certainly has something to do with the man of sin whose reign is limited to ten nations of the Arab world.

Finally, the greatest evidence that the Great Apostacy is upon us is that Christians are so busy DENYING IT, choosing instead to make flippant jokes about real situations, real numbers, real statements from leaders who know what they're talking about and real suffering. Islam is on the rise worldwide and is predicted to exceed the number of all other religions COMBINED in just a few years. Muslims are making NO JOKES about their plans at all!

The Great Apostacy is here folks and we are neck deep in it.

Bottom line. We are deep into being a lukewarm, uncommited, backslidden church! I can prove that the church isn't part of this apostasy because it's not even remotely implied in the text. Can you prove that the church is part of it?

The next event is the rise in interest in the Muslim twelfth imam al-Mahdi (see link above). Coincidence? I think not.

The coincidences between bible prophecy and Islamic prophecy is amazing.

Keep an Eye on the Arab world. Saddam may soon come back! You don't think the real Saddam would have been found in a hole in the ground do you with the money he had!

 

[aspen]

Only the Buddist or those who don't know how to understand the biblical criteria for the man of sin.

It's not that difficult to figure out as long as you're able to do your own unbiased and objective homework. You've got to forget about what you've been taught and leave your preconceived ideas behind and be willing to consider other views. If you believe what the majority of the experts teach you will certainly be misled. Maybe a thread on the Assyrian anti-christ would help you see what I mean. Ever notice how you never hear about the Assyrian from people like Lindsey and Hagee and how little evidence they provide to support their theory? The idea of an Assyrian anti-christ was believed by several like Newton, Dake's, and Arthur Pink. It's clear by the passages in Isaiah that the Assyrian comes in the end and Christ destroys him in the end., And right now conditions are gearing up for the entrance of an Assyrian in the Arab world because I think It is going into apostasy. But that's my opinion..

All I am saying is that all people who have been looking out for the Antichrist have made convincing cases for the Power of their day....


Greece.....Rome.....The Pope......France.......Germany.......Russia.....and now Islamic people. The next logical suspect is China




It has been happening this way since people started reading Danial.

Revelation predicts that during the Great Tribulation beheading will be the common form of execution.
Is it a coincidence that the same is true for Islam?

Chinese indeed.

If you're exchanging bets, put your head on the line.

And Hal Lindsey would have though you were nuts 40 years ago.....

What about Gog and Magog??? What about Jewish people bowing down to the Antichrist?? When would a Jew ever bow down to a Muslim and allow one in their temple?

It all sounds good at the time.......and then we wait some more........and new speculation, which nullifies past speculation arrives....

 

[revturmoil]

All I am saying is that all people who have been looking out for the Antichrist have made convincing cases for the Power of their day....

True only of people who didn't know that there is a biblical criteria for the man of sin. People thought Hitler was the one beause he was European. But the scriptures are clear, he will be an Arab and an Assyrian. Want scripture verses?

Greece.....Rome.....The Pope......France.......Germany.......Russia.....and now Islamic people. The next logical suspect is China

All fingers point to the geographical area of and revival of the Grecian Empire. Greece i.e. the Mid-East is mentioned 3 times by Daniel as the origin of the beast.

It has been happening this way since people started reading Danial.

The idea of an Assyrian anti-christ is a very old theory.

And Hal Lindsey would have though you were nuts 40 years ago.....

That's not true. The Assyrian anti-christ is scriptural and a very old idea and one you are obviously unaware of and unfamiliar with. I think the idea of pretribulationism is crazy.

What about Gog and Magog??? What about Jewish people bowing down to the Antichrist?? When would a Jew ever bow down to a Muslim and allow one in their temple?

What about Gog and Magog? Who say's the Jews will bow to the man of sin? Where's the scripture? And who say's the temple needs rebuilding? People like Hal Lindsey say that stuff! I don't believe it because I can't find it in scripture.

It all sounds good at the time.......and then we wait some more........and new speculation, which nullifies past speculation arrives....

Like I said. It's really nothing new. Every country in prophecy is Arab, Persian, and Muslim. And that's in accord with the Assyrian anti-christ. Not Rome, not European, not the US, and not China.

 

[tomwebster]

...the Assyrian ...

You do know that "The Assyrian" is another name for Satan, right?

 

[aspen]

True only of people who didn't know that there is a biblical criteria for the man of sin. People thought Hitler was the one beause he was European. But the scriptures are clear, he will be an Arab and an Assyrian. Want scripture verses?




All fingers point to the geographical area of and revival of the Grecian Empire. Greece i.e. the Mid-East is mentioned 3 times by Daniel as the origin of the beast.



The idea of an Assyrian anti-christ is a very old theory.



That's not true. The Assyrian anti-christ is scriptural and a very old idea and one you are obviously unaware of and unfamiliar with. I think the idea of pretribulationism is crazy.



What about Gog and Magog? Who say's the Jews will bow to the man of sin? Where's the scripture? And who say's the temple needs rebuilding? People like Hal Lindsey say that stuff! I don't believe it because I can't find it in scripture.



Like I said. It's really nothing new. Every country in prophecy is Arab, Persian, and Muslim. And that's in accord with the Assyrian anti-christ. Not Rome, not European, not the US, and not China.

Well, I am learning a lot. I admit that eschatology is not my area of strength. It just seems to me that this area of study is fraught with speculation and intrigue.....yet, I have nothing new to offer so I will listen.

I guess I will have to wait and see.

 

[Duckybill]

It just seems to me that this area of study is fraught with speculation and intrigue.....

You got that right! It can be interesting but for we who are ready for His return it won't matter.

 

[aspen]

You got that right! It can be interesting but for we who are ready for His return it won't matter.

I totally agree. Yet, it is fun to think about! Although, I am so ready for the end......Jesus return!

 

[[email protected]]

You do know that "The Assyrian" is another name for Satan, right?

What work of literature do you refer? The spirit you name has many titles. The word 'assyrian' is also a reference to a country or ancient people. If the AC is to proceed from the inherited line of those folks, then it would be interesting to learn of the blood line.

There are numerous chilling parallels between al-Mahdi, the twelvers plans for his reign and Biblical prophecy. Too numerous to list at this time.
According to shiite theory, the Twelfth Imam will come out of Mecca or its environs. The big voice in Iran (Imanutjob) has also said al-Mahdi will come from there.

Wait and see I suppose.

There is also an interesting image from Muslim legend that says something about Allah's throne either being shared or supplanted by a character called Iblis, the king or leader of the shaitans.
Iblis is yet another name for satan and a shaitan is either a demon or the prince of demons depending upon the context of the Qur'an where you read it.
Back to the legend where it says that Iblis shall rise out of the sea and either take the throne of Allah or share it. It's too convoluted to get a clear picture. Either way, though, it seems that allah is in trouble in the last days.

The book of Revelation says that Pergamon (also spelled Pergamum in many Biblical translations) is the city where the throne of satan is. That's interesting because Pergamun is in western Turkey, a formerly moderate Muslim nation which is now aligning itself with Iran. Keep an eye on Turkey. It may be difficult because the American media seems to ignore such things.

Lots of pieces to the prophecy puzzle. Lots and lots. The alarming thing, though is that so many of them are coming together in a more or less coherent fashion.
None have a clear hi def picture yet, but there is a hazy image forming that appears to be more accurate than anything yet understood.

The phrase most often used by the ancient see-ers was, "we shall see".

 

[revturmoil]

Well, I am learning a lot. I admit that eschatology is not my area of strength. It just seems to me that this area of study is fraught with speculation and intrigue.....yet, I have nothing new to offer so I will listen.

I guess I will have to wait and see.

A person can make anything fit into bible prophecy. But bible prophecy doesn't fit into just anything. There is a difference. And the only way to know what prophecies may be pertinent to our time is to first look at the prophecy by word studies and then look at what's happening in our world. By doing this you can eliminate several theories such as Europe, China, ot the US as possible candidates for the origin of the beast(s). I don't just speculate. I look at the prophecies first.

One good thing. You can admit it's not an area of strength for you. And you aren't bound to a set of beliefs by the prophecy experts. So keep an open mind.

God bless,

KP

You got that right! It can be interesting but for we who are ready for His return it won't matter.

Are you ready and waiting to be removed? Or are you ready to endure tribulation before the Day of the Lord?