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Signs of the Times: The Great Apostasy

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by [email protected], Feb 7, 2011.

  1. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    I post here another bit of sad news about the retreat of Christianity.

    Churches Open Doors to Muslim Worship

    "Two Protestant churches are taking some heat from critics for opening their church buildings to Muslims needing places to worship because their own facilities were either too small, or under construction."

    To read the entire story go to:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/18/churches-open-doors-muslim-worship/?test=latestnews
     
  2. BarryD

    BarryD New Member

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  3. BarryD

    BarryD New Member

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  4. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    There comes a point where I feel I can't keep replying to a person. I've pointed out scripture to you, common sense as well, and as I cannot seem to convince you of it's truth, there's no point going on. To do so, I'm afraid, would only lead to anger on both our sides, which does nothing.

    So, I'm going to say bye, pray for you, and hopefully see you (no matter your odd and erroneous doctrine) on the other side!
     
  5. Job one

    Job one Member

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    Tomwebster said:

    “But that still doesn't mean true Christianity has failed, for the foundation our Lord Jesus and His prophets and Apostles laid will never be corrupted; only the beth-avens who depart from the Way are simply cut off, pruned.

    One of the signs of the end associated with this apostasy event is the type ministry God's two witnesses are to have. Their ministry is to parallel Elijah's ministry. And what kind of things happenned to God's people in Elijah's days? Elijah ran for his life because the pagan Jezebel had killed most of God's prophets and Elijah was one of the few left. The majority of the people had fallen into false Baal idol worship led by Jezebel and the Baal prophets. But God called Elijah out to give Testimony against them, and showed many works through Elijah that turned many back to The LORD.

    Only those of Christ's servants that remain faithful to Him will God work through in the last days, similar to Elijah. Remember how John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah and was persecuted for making a stand without fear. Christ declared how John was no reed shaking in the wind, showing he made a stand against the false religious heads and corruptness of his day.”

    I agree with the point made, however, we should remember that: John came with the spirit of Elias.

    BarryD wrote on February 10, 2011:

    “Why does the Lord Jesus Christ have to return and finish, what he stated was finished.”

    We should remember that when Christ said it was finished, He was referring to the Atonement and the sacrifice required to fulfill it.

    BarryD wrote again on February 12 and brought out some additional great points relating to the preaching of the gospel required before the second coming of Christ. I have a question regarding a part of his quote from Revelation 14:6:

    Revelation 14:6 (KJV) "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    Now concerning the “Great Apostasy” , was or were there some parts or power of the gospel which were lost? If they were “lost”, then it would appear that they , of necessity would need to be restored in order to fulfill this prophecy of John the beloved, he so clearly stated “Revelation 14:6 (KJV) "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    If part or parts of the “everlasting gospel” were not lost through the “great Apostasy,” then it should be obvious to us that there would be no need for those things to be restored by angelic ministry as so declared by John. Is there any account of this prophecy being fulfilled?
     
  6. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof"
    2 Tim 3:5

    You can also substitute the word 'religion' for 'godliness' above.

    That part of the gospel, which is lost in the Great Apostacy, is the POWER of religion, godliness, faith, etc.
    If any man hasn't seen it, then he has certainly heard the rumor of it.
    We usually call refer to such a thing as a 'dead church'.

    The gospel stands as always, unmarred and unscathed by the depredations of man.
    Man's stand, however, is not quite so stable. Man wanders and goes his own way, to his detriment.

    That is the shame of the institutional church, not the gospel.
     
  7. Job one

    Job one Member

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    An interesting thought you bring up RJP.

    The ten commandments still stand unchanged. If we choose to disobey them, the law itself is not broken, but more correctly stated, we break ourselves against those commandments.

    The gospel itself is not changed, but rather man may choose to become apostate and abandon one or more principles of the gospel. Man may also choose to substitute man made doctrines as another form of apostasy. Man may also choose to abandon specific ordinances as another form of apostasy.

    If an individual, group or even a church chooses to sustain and embrace sodomy, for example, then those who so chose will be obvious apostates to the pure gospel of Jesus Christ.
     
  8. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    Perhaps you misunderstand Barry's POV. The point of N.T. grace is justification.

    There seem to be at least two actions involved in the divine act of forgiveness. God says that He will cast our sins away and forget about it. What this means is that we are justified before God, wherein we were not before.

    If a man is justified before God, it is the same as being without sin, for the offense has been washed away by the blood of Christ.

    Having granted forgiveness, Our Lord was in the habit of saying, "go and sin no more."

    At this point, the discussion can get involved in the bag of worms discussed in Romans 6, 7 & 8, the fleshly desire to sin vs. the spiritual desire to .... not.

    Going back to first base, upon being forgiven the justified man is sinless in the eyes of God.
    Life goes on and what happens after that is another thing entirely.

    Good point. I see, or perhaps I should say that I witness, two things happening in the world today.

    First, that the institutional church is shriveling faster than a sun baked rasin in the California sun.
    The place where I went to seminary thirty + years ago now offers business classes instead. Lack of students of the Bible? hmmmm

    Second, that there seems to be a massive work by the Holy Spirit upon believers (not churchified dead wood, mind you), to get their act together, get serious, and get right with God....right down to the bone if you will.

    I've seen it happening in a lot of churchs and heard the rumor of it from brothers everywhere.

    It's like a quiet revival. It isn't in the papers like the massive invitation in the late 60's and early 70's and it isn't rocking the established institutional church (which rejected the Holy Spirit back then), but it IS doing a severe and serious work among those who love the Lord.

    Is there anyone here in a deep personal relationship with Christ that hasn't noticed something like it in their own life and in the lives of others they know to be devout Christians? God wants us to get serious with our spiritual lives.
    Church leaders preach situational ethics and personal improvement instead of the gospel. (We've all seen and heard it.)

    No brother, the REAL church is solid as the rock it stands on.
    The institutional church? Well, that's another thing altogether, which is my point.
     
  9. BarryD

    BarryD New Member

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    The truth is like salt, it stings in an open wound, it heals that open wound, and it also preserves. The scriptual word of God says that we do not sin, and can not sin 1 John 3:9(KJV), and that He is "the saviour of all men" 1Timothy 4:10(KJV). If God's word says it, it was accomplished, how was it accomplished? First, we need to know the Biblical definition of sin, in plain English it is the "transgression of the law". It is found in God's scriptual word of 1John 3:4(KJV) "Whosoever comitteth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law". My favorite verse of God's scriptual word is Romans 4:15(KJV)" Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression". Now what did the Lord Jesus Christ do for there to be no transgression of the law. First, he abolished it: Ephesians 2:15(KJV) " Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace"; Second, he blotted it out: Colossians 2:14(KJV) " Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"; That is why the veil is upon their heart in the reading of the old testament, and in the reading of Moses! See, Revelation 12:10(KJV). The Greatest Carpenter that ever lived! Don't carpenters build houses? Enmity, in plain English is the ill will, or hatred of God. Twain, in plain English were the Jews and Gentiles. Now, we can go and sin no more. "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God" 1 John 4:7 (KJV). Thank you God! The saviour of all men by Barry Dennis. God bless each and every one, or has He?
     
  10. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    That ideology is incorrect scripturally, spiritually and experientially.
    It is taken out of context in the scripture, it is not accurate to describe what is actually happening spiritually, and we do not see it in operation physically. Quite the opposite, we see Christians struggling and stumbling with sin all the time. To simply ignore that and say it doesn't happen does them and us a disservice.

    Scripturally - see Romans 6, 7 & 8. Especially attend to these verses in Romans 6.

    [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
    [13] neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    These verses point to a struggle of the will in the Christian; to obey God or to obey the lusts of sin, also at times referred to as 'the flesh'.
    The context suggests an awareness of sin on the part of the Christian as a thing separate from the Christian and an intent opposed to that of God for the Christian.
    Verse thirteen is a caution and a command to NOT yield one's body [members] to the urges of sin or 'the flesh'.
    It implies a conscious effort of the Christian will against the will of sin, which would use the lusts of the flesh to trap and dominate the Christian.

    Here's the catch. If we are commanded to NOT yield, it therefore follows that we MAY yield even though we have been justified before God.
    To simply say that this cannot happen is unrealistic, for it does. All of us know those who have done so. They are the ones who have stumbled and been caught by yielding to the power of sin.

    What happens then? Paul continues the discussion in chapter 7, showing us that there is indeed a war of sin going on and that it is possible for the believer to stumble into sin.

    Rom 7:15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.
    Rom 7:16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

    At this point the Christian knows that the battle is on and that he must acquit himself rightly before God. If the Christian does not, then a terrible fate awaits.

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
    Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

    Bottom line here is that although a justified Christian is not under the power of sin and may even be aware of its temptings, it IS possible to fall into the grip of sin once again. When that happens, there is to be a swift judgment upon us, for we are not to be allowed to continue in it.

    We may have eternal and sure security, but we DO NOT have any such guarantees against willful sin after we have accepted the grace of God.
    For the blood of Christ is upon us and we belong no longer to sin, but to God whose arm is not so short it cannot save.

    In summation then, the just are saved by grace and sin will not have dominion over them.
    The battle in not over and done, for as long as man shall live he must do battle against those tendencies to sin and to fall under its power once more.
    We are assured that if we resist the enemy it will flee from us. Should we weaken, we also have the assurance that God Himself will take a hand and punish us for doing so.
    The father loves us and will not permit us to sin even if we yield through weakness.

    Grace and justification are not a license to sin, but rather a commission to join the ranks of the soldiers of the cross in the struggle against it.
    The warning therefore is that we CAN sin, but that we ought not.
     
  11. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    PS to the above.

    The will of sin which tempts us is finite in time.
    It doesn't last very long, though it may seem to whisper to us that it will last forever (a lie).
    Resistance is NOT futile, it is actually quite profitable. Therein is the fallacy of secular wisdom.

    Yielding the members of the body to sin is only a temporary victory for the nasty boogers that assault us.
    Should a Christian stumble, it must be remembered that the blood of Christ has been shed for us and that we are bought, paid for and owned by God. That is a sure knowledge in the righteous battle to regain ourselves and do battle with the enemy once again.

    The loser of a battle stumbles and falls, never to try to rise again, but although the winner may stumble, he rises again and again to continue the struggle. Did not our own Lord stumble and fall in the midst of suffering?
    He sympathizes and knows the struggle and in that knowledge can be a sure and certain help to us when we stumble in the way.
     
  12. BarryD

    BarryD New Member

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    "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" John 1:17(KJV) We do not war after the flesh, is found in 2 Corinthians 10:3(KJV). Jesus Christ also crucified the flesh, with all of its affections and lusts, that's in Galatians 5:24(KJV)! I have studied to show myself approved, a workman that does not have to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth! Funny, how some people try to explain away the truth, when they can read it for themselves in the scriptual word of God! But, but, but it's false doctrine, no it's the scriptual word of God. Blind leading the blind. There maybe apostacy in religion, but there is no apostacy of the church, you are the church! Jesus Christ finished it once, and for all! John 17:4(KJV) and Hebrews 10:10(KJV) May every one have a blessed day. The Saviour of All Men by Barry Dennis
     
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Back to the OP...

    It's important to include what Paul was especially pointing to with his "falling away" prophecy...


    2 Thess 2:3-4
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    (KJV)


    The great apostasy of God's people is not... really... here yet.

    The events you listed are indicators leading up to it that will cause it. Paul's warning is about a particular false one coming to play God prior to Christ's coming. What would be required to cause strong enough deception to fall prey to that false one coming to play God, especially those among Christ's believers? FALSE IDEAS like on your list. Those ideas are stage setters for the coming great apostasy. The real fun is yet to come when that false one does arrive and plays God, and demands that we all bow to him as God.

    That "falling away" is linked to that "strong delusion" Paul warned of later in verse 11.



     
  14. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    I agree with 1-4 but not # 5. Why would apostasy mean one thing for Christian's and something else for all the others?

    The reason why people assume that the apostasia applies to the church is because that's what they've been taught.

    Falling away is a poor interpretation of the word apostasia and 2 Thess. 2 is the only place the word forsake or 'apostasia' is interpreted "falling away".

    Apostasia comes from the root word meaning a divorce. It means to defect or to abandon.

    Apoostasy is not being lukewarm or backsliden. It actually has nothing to do with spiritual condition of a church or lack of devotion of an individual. It is not false doctrine or heresy and it will have nothing to do with the endtime church. The entire chapter is devoted to the revelation of the man of sin before the Day of Christ. There is no scripture that implies that the church will supposedly "apostasize" from christianity to the religion of the beast and welcome the man of sin. I believe that the the "apostasy" prophecied in 2 Thes 2:3 is now taking place in the Arab world.

    For a christian to be an apostate, he must renounce his religion, disolve his union with God, and accept another religion...or no religion at all. In 2 Thes. 2, the falling away has all to do with the man of sin, not the church! I think it's a shame that this 'falling away' has been attributed to the church. But that's what we've all been taught!

    Rome's disgraceful past (not today) has influenced the interpretation of the word apostasia as being a "defection from truth" rather than a desertion or abandonment of a post....

    This is what Bakers Dictionary of Theology has to say's this about apostasy.

    "A word of increasing interest found twice in the NT. (Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3 It comes from the Greek apostasia a late form of apostasis, originally to desert a post or station in life. It is used of Plutarch of political revolt and is found in the OT in the sense of revolt against the Lord. (Josh. 22:22) Antiochus Epiphanes enforced an apostasia from Judaism to Hellenism (1 Macc 2:15)
    In the AV it is translated "falling away" in relation to the man of sin or antichrist. In this sense the thought is of religious revolt. Cremer states that apostasia is used in the absolute sense of "passing over to unbelief," thus a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ." Amdt adds rebellion or abandonment in the religious sense. On the nature of apostasy there are lengthy articles in both the JewEnc and the CE developing an extensive doctrine of apostasy.

    In the NT. 2 Thes 2:3 is part of a prophetic passage of apocalyptic character. The falling away invites conjecture about whom and from what. The event seems future and thus related to antichrist. The implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin."
    _________________________________________________________________


    Entire kingdoms have gone into apostasy when it's ruler or king called for one. And it was always to change the "national religion."

    Here is a list of apostates that have gone from one religion to another.


    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    Apostasy
    (Greek απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing") is the formal renunciation of one's religion.

    Noted apostates

    This is a list of notable persons that have followed a religion and then publicly abandoned or publicly criticized it and attracted notable attention by this defection, or had a notable influence on society with their defection; or if the person has been notably been referred to as an apostate by other groups or people regardless whether the person accepts this label or not.

    Ambedkar an ex-Hindu who became a Buddhist

    Karen Armstrong ex-Roman Catholic nun who became an atheist

    Julian the Apostate ex-Christian and Roman emperor

    Aurelius Augustine (Augustine of Hippo) Former adherent of Manicheism who converted to Christianity and criticized Manicheism in his book called Confessions, though generally not labelled as an apostate because the term is originally used for people who leave Christianity, not for people who convert to it

    Marjoe Gortner ex-Christian

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim

    Maria Monk Sometimes considered an apostate, though little evidence exists that she ever belonged to the religion she supposedly fled

    Taslima Nasrin born in a Muslim family who became an atheist

    Friedrich Nietzsche grew up in a Lutheran family and became a confirmed Christian in his teens but later became a staunch atheist

    Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses

    Baruch Spinoza excommunicated from the Jewish community

    Ibn Warraq ex-Muslim
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________


    I would like to add Walid Shoebat. A former Muslim and Palestinian terrorist converted to Christianity.

    It's my opinion that 2 Thes. 2 gives us clues as to what takes place just before the revelation of the man of sin The implication is that the 'apostates' will welcome the man of sin. There isn't one inference to the church.

    What's taking place in the Arab world today could be the apostasy of 2 Thes. 2 because the word is used of a rebellion and political revolt.

    The word withholdeth means to detain.

    "What detains him? An apostasy is what he is waiting for! Shia Muslim's believe the 'Mahdi' comes when the region is in chaos. The man of sin enters in when the region goes into an apostasy where dictators and governments fall. A political and/or religious revolt accross the Arab world would bring the region into chaos and that is an ideal situation for the man of sin to exersise his influence, intrigue, and flatteries for political gain and religious unity in the region. That's what the protesters want anyway.

    Hasan A. Yahya, the Dean of Arab Writers in North America said,

    "This article calls for wider scope of protest and revolutions in the Arab countries, otherwise, these revolutions and protests are incomplet and misguided. In his opinion, the revolution may satisfy one country, it does not satisfy all Arabs who aspire for unity, one currency, one economy, and one flag that covers a land with no borders between."

    Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/philosophy-articles/a-new-definition-of-apostasy-and-heretics-sociological-analysis-1387803.html#ixzz1EcNgMQnk






     
  15. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    The Great Apostacy is not here yet?

    Dark days for the Catholic Church
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126382767

    The new pope, Benedict XVI, who hails from Germany,
    has said that the erosion of the church in Europe is one of the greatest challenges facing his papacy.
    http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/05/02/catholic_church_withers_in_europe/

    In America, the Gallup poll states that only 43% of professing Protestant Christians attend church on a regular basis.
    That finding has been disputed by most pastors and in a recent head count survey by David Olson (http://www.theamericanchurch.org/facts/1.htm) shows only 18% attend regularly.
    Both surveys agree that by the year 2050 the number will fall to 10% or less.

    As we write, a new wave of ethnic cleansing is sweeping the middle east. Christian churchs are being destroyed and Christians are being persecuted and killed.
    Everywhere in America the church is ridiculed and disrespected.

    The Great Apostacy is not here yet?
    How bad does it have to get, sir, before you'll admit that it is?

    The great delusion is the belief that the anti-christ is the annointed of God.

    In that the world must deny the truth of the gospel before that happens, I do not disagree.
    Is it a coincidence then that shiite Muslims speak regularly about the expected arrival of al-Mahdi, their Muslim messiah?
    The parallels between that character and the anti-christ of Revelation is too close to be ignored.

    I find it odd that at the exact moment in history when we find Christendom in the midst of the greatest decline since its founding, we also hear about the coming of al-Mahdi.
    Coincidence? I think not. The Great Apostacy is upon us.
    In fact, I think that we are nearly at the back side of it, since we are now hearing about the Muslim messiah as well as coordinated massive military attacks against Israel.

    IMO it's later than you think, or dare to believe.
     
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Don't get me wrong. I definitely agree with your original post there is apostasy of many of God's people going on today, and for quite a while now.


    BUT, is it the one Apostle Paul was actually pointing to in those 2 Thess.2:3-4 verses?

    2 Thess 2:3-4
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    (KJV)


    That false one Paul warned would come ain't the pope, nor any flesh man that has yet come. It's the following one of our near future...


    Rev 13:11-15
    11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
    14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    (KJV)


    Since when has Christianity subjected people to the penalty of death for refusing to bow in worship to an image of the beast? The nearest religion doing that isn't Christianity, but is instead Islam.

    Paul's warning about a specific false one coming to play God in 2 Thess.2 has been misinterpreted by the "many antichrists" doctrinists for so long, they can no longer grasp the singular entity Paul was actually warning of that would cause that great falling away (apostasia) of many of God's people.

    Christian Churches joining with other religions today is one type of 'apostasy'; but actually bowing in individual worship to a false messiah doing great miracles in place of God is another type of 'apostasy'. Which type do you think our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were really pointing to for the end of this world prior to His return? The latter type.

    And that's the type Paul pointed to in those 2 Thess.2:1-10 verses. In 2 Corinthians 11 Paul gave the same kind of warning with the "another Jesus", and how he was afraid the brethren might be deceived like how that old serpent deceived Eve. Our Lord Jesus was also teaching this warning when He gave parables like the ten virgins, which virgin analogy Paul also used to show we are to remain spiritually 'chaste' waiting for Christ's coming.


    That wasn't the only warning our Lord gave about this future false messiah event. He uses the historical Babylon as an endtime comparison. Revelation 14 & 18 even uses the same words for future Babylon's destruction that were used in Isaiah 21 for historical Babylon's destruction.

    So what kind of false worship went on with the historical Babylon and king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar)?

    Daniel and his fellows were well cared for during their 70 years captivity in Babylon. Their temptation and trials came when Nebuchadnezzar's false prophets got him to setup a golden idol image of himself for all to bow in worship to at the sound of the psalter, and all that refused were to be killed. That's the type of great apostasy Paul was really pointing to in our near future. It's about that false one of Rev.13:11 forward and that "image of the beast" he will setup for all to bow to.




     
  17. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Look at the context of 2 Thes. 2. An apostasy is said to come just before the revelation of the man of sin. Where is the cuhrch implied in the text or in this apostasy? Don't let the English translation of the word apostasia fool you. Do an objective research of the word. It doesn't imply a lukewarm, backslidden church in decline and it doesn't imply heresy. The church isn't implied in the passage at all! That definition comes from people who had preconceived ideas about Rome because of their horrible past and heretical doctrine. The reformers and much of todays eschatological beliefs were influenced by people who couldn't let go of the prejudisms they acquired by the RCC's past. Many Protestant's have yet to forgive the Catholic's and it reflects in their interpretation of the prophetic Word.

    Apostasy is a rebellion and a religious or politcal revolt. It means to abandon ones former religion, desert a post, and go to another. It's a divorce. It means to defect and go from one thing and accept another. A person cannot remain within their own religion and be apostate because that's not the definition of the word!

    The entire theory of eschatology promoted by high profile prophecy experts should be questioned by Christian's. I use to believe what I was taught. Now, I question it all and consider the entire theory of Protestant eschatology as misleading millions of Christian's who are so indoctrinated by these high profile prophecy experts that they are reluctant to break out of it and unwillingfind to consider other views.

    It could very well be that the revolts we see in the Arab/Muslim world today is the apostasy prophecied to come just prior to the revelation of the man of sin.

    The apostasy in 2 Thes. 2 is more of an event than it is a condition.

    Can any of you show me how the church is implied in the apostasy and text of 2 Thes. 2? And what makes anyone think that Christian's or the church would accept this man of sin?
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Notice Paul's warning is that a great apostasy, AND that son of perdition must occur before what? What event was Paul saying won't occur until those events of verses 3 & 4 happen? Both events must occur PRIOR to Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. So the Scripture is not necessarily declaring the apostasy happenning prior to the coming of that false one.

    When our Lord Jesus returns, THAT's when that false one will be revealed for who he really is. That also will be when many of the apostates that fell into deception of false worship to that false one will discover how they were apostate. That's what the revealing of that false one at Christ's coming will do.

    That is what our Lord Jesus was warning us about when He said for us to keep our garments so we don't appear naked and ashamed when He comes. It's what the chaste virgin analogies He and His Apostles gave are about. Can't get the full understanding of Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2 solely in that one chapter. This matter is specificaly covered in many other Scriptures about the end also.

     
  19. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    That's not the argument I was making but now that you mention it...

    The Chapter is about The Man of Lawlessness and begins with...

    1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

    The subject matter is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered unto him and the revelation of the man of sin.

    You said,

    Paul said it's the coming of our Lord JESUS CHRIST and our gathering unto him...that cannot occur until what???

    3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness
    is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

    What day will not come? The day of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him won't come before the apostasy (rebellion) and revelation of the man of lawlessness.

    You also said,

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Yes it does!

    It does say the apostasy happens before the revelation of the man of sin because it's the apostasy that withholds his coming! Without it the man of sin cannot be revealed.

    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    How difficult is that to understand???

     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You're still missing Paul's time reference. There's a difference between the time when "that Wicked" one does his evil working prior to Christ's return, and the time when "that Wicked" one is REVEALED on the day of Christ's return. Here's the order given by those phrases...

    1. "a falling away first"
    2. "that man of sin be revealed"

    So WHEN does that "man of sin" do his evil work? Ans: DURING NUMBER 1, the same time of the apostasy. That's the point I was making.

    What evil working is that man of sin to do prior to Christ's coming when he is revealed?

    2 Thess.2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    That time when that man of sin does that evil working is PRIOR to Christ's return.

    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
    (KJV)


    The mystery of iniquity is already at work, but not that man of sin yet; not until that he that is withholds him is taken out of the way. That he is Michael, for that's about Dan.12:1 and Rev.12:7-9.

     
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