Short morality question

[TexUs]

You couldn't have refused to kill people?

You're blissfully ignorant about the military then... They pretty much own you and if you don't do what you are owned to do... the results aren't.... good.

 

[Duckybill]

If this would have been an embarrassment to the church, and not what they taught... Why did THE CHURCH record these things? Why would their FAMILY associate military rank if it was an embarrassment to them?

You haven't proven a thing.

And listen, either intellectually think about this or I won't respond again. "Still no proof" is not answering my question. WHY would the church record this stuff if they were opposed to it?

Which church?

You've never been in the military, have you? Of course not, you're pacifist.

Actually they wouldn't take me because I had a child. I probably would have though. I wasn't a Christian then.

The military helps our enemy all the time. Our soldiers get shot at frequently and it's not a license for personal vengeance like you make it seem. They'll certainly take the fire and make their way to capture these folks, without lethal action, if possible.

Gee I thought they dropped bombs on babies, children, cripples, Christians, etc.

So you're going to deny historical fact in order to support your pacifist position? Weather or not you like it, the first Christian nation took up arms and defeated the Romans. Period.

There never has been a Christian nation. Never!

Matthew 5:39 (NKJV)
[sup]39 [/sup]But I tell you not to resist an evil person.

[/b] Answer. My. Question. Or are you unable to? Is it loving to allow Hitler to kill millions of people in cold blood? I don't want a scripture quotation that doesn't answer my question. I want a statement from you. Or are you unable to?

You just answered it yourself. " I DON'T WANT A SCRIPTURE QUOTATION that doesn't answer my question"

Again, you didn't answer my question. Are you unable to? "No, Jesus, I let the intruder rape my wife out of love"
"No, Jesus, I allowed Hitler to execute, torture, and kill millions of Jews out of love" Are these two actions love? Or are you unable to answer?

I answered with Scripture. You don't accept Scriptural answers. God's promises are true whether you believe them or not.

Ahhh so the God that died for us is a different God that'll exist in the future? I'm sorry but that flies in the face of factual Biblical evidence. God is the same as he was yesterday as he is today, and tomorrow.

Stop making stuff up. How is that different than lying? God cannot change.

The "future" Jesus is the same Jesus as today.

Yes He is the same. But He didn't kill anyone while He was in the flesh. "leaving us an example".

Jesus will speak death to the MAJORITY OF PEOPLE. It's justly killing the majority of people that's ever lived. If you can't live with that, then that's your problem.

You want mercy from God? Then give mercy. It's YOUR problem.

James 2:13 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.

Was the point of the cross to demonstrate Pacifism or was it an example of patient suffering in the face of injustice? Romans 3:25-26 blows your argument of this sky-high. The cross was a matter of righteousness and JUSTICE of God! It leads to the destruction and judgement of sin... The cross was hardly an act of pacifism. The cross was justice UPHELD, it was not justice WITHHELD. Your argument severely fails here. The cross was never intended to be the sole comprehensive model for dealing with civil justice.
Context. He said he did not eliminate the smallest letter of the Law. That law, which provided FOR resisting evil, AND the punishment OF evil, including capital punishment by the people. To take this out of context statement at literal face value here would be a contradiction. That's a no-no. So what's it say?

Matthew 5:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy.

Well, he quotes an OT law regarding the punishment should equal the severity of the crime (eye for eye). Why was this OT principle in effect and what did it do? Well, it curbed crime. When someone realized taking a life would mean their own death: it prevented the crimes! The second purpose, and this is key... was to prevent excessive punishment because of PERSONAL VENGEANCE. If all that was done is someone stole $10 from you, he was to be punished by paying you $10 back. You could not give him a death sentence over stealing $10. So the eye for eye law was just (punishment matches the crime) AND merciful (no excessive punishment). What's this mean? IN NO WAY was the OT law that Jesus was quoting EVER used for people taking the law into their own hands. So you're assumption regarding this text is fatally flawed from the start. We must look at the context and understand the law Jesus was quoting: Pacifists don't make that effort. Now what happened to this law? The Pharisees perverted it from prevention of personal vengeance, INTO personal vengeance! Like Jesus spent tons of his time doing, he was correcting the perversion of his law. Remember, his law was not bad- the people were bad. His entire point with this message was about PERSONAL VENGEANCE. He was correcting the perversion and not saying his law was in error, he was saying the perversion of it was.

You're starting to sound like Eccl.

Jesus was NOT establishing legal code. He was NOT saying we sit by and let evil prevail. He is NOT saying we sit by and let abuse occur. He IS saying when we suffer wrong, we should do so without a need to resort to personal vengeance. Both Jesus (John 18:22-23) and Paul (Acts 23:1-5) didn't LITERALLY turn the other cheek. This should alone tell us your interpretation is different than that of theirs. The entire point was, again, personal vengeance. You do realize Christ never gave a command that arming and defending themselves were bad, don't you? In fact the entire story of the garden suggests just the opposite.

Hebrews 13:6 doesn't say bad won't befall us. That flies in the face of the entire gospel message and even more than that, the text doesn't even say it.

The fact still is that no NT Christian killed anyone. Israel killed hundreds of thousands. All of your excuses to kill people won't fly on Judgment Day.

You're blissfully ignorant about the military then... They pretty much own you and if you don't do what you are owned to do... the results aren't.... good.

You still have a choice to obey men or God. The sad fact is that most are more afraid of men than God.

Proverbs 29:25 (NKJV)
[sup]25 [/sup]The fear of man brings a snare, But WHOEVER TRUSTS IN THE LORD SHALL BE SAFE.

 

[TexUs]

Ducky, I only read the first line of your response and that's all I had to read.

When you are able to answer my questions I shall reply again.

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky, I only read the first line of your response and that's all I had to read.

When you are able to answer my questions I shall reply again.

In other words you demand answers and then you refuse to read the answers.

 

[TexUs]

"You haven't proven a thing" is not an answer to "Why did THE CHURCH record these things? Why would their FAMILY associate military rank if it was an embarrassment to them?"


Again no different than bud02, selene, aspen, anyone else... If you can't answer questions I won't argue with you.

 

[Duckybill]

"You haven't proven a thing" is not an answer to "Why did THE CHURCH record these things? Why would their FAMILY associate military rank if it was an embarrassment to them?"

Again no different than bud02, selene, aspen, anyone else... If you can't answer questions I won't argue with you.

I answered every question.

 

[Pato]

I'm real sorry to hear that someguy! :mellow:

Let me just say this again...the Lord would not tell you to kill anyone because life is in the blood and it is precious in God's sight.

Before Israel became into the promised land, they had to destroy the surrounding tribes for reasons that I had stated in my OP. but that was entirely different from the position that we are in today.

Please be wise when dealing with what you are hearing...measure it up against the word of God. You can tell if something is from God by reading the bible. The word gives us an indication of his character. We get to know him just like we get to know a friend. It is out of character for him to tell you this.

I will be praying for you!

Blessings

Excellent answer.