Saved By Grace Through FAITH ...

[theefaith]

Yes.

Rev 1
[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

figure of speech
Go to each one and it says thee church at this location
Jn 10:16
7 folds?
7 covenants?
7 kingdoms?
No one universal Catholic Church

 

[theefaith]

And if you reject what your Pope says, What does that make of you?

Have you rejected any that which your Pope says, or teach, or preach? If so, what would that be?

Tong
R3729

1st are referring to a valid pope who has authority from Christ?
And teaches the universal church with apostolic authority on matters of faith and morals?

 

[theefaith]

You have skipped some of the questions in my post. Well…..

It’s amazing that concerning your church or the blessed virgin Mary, you write a lot when answering questions. But concerning the gospel you preach, just that. And come to think of it, it is the gospel, that is supposed to be preached, which scriptures says is the power of God to salvation.

Any way, I will let go of that, since ot seems to me you are not interested to divulge.

I just wonder how you will give an answer to a pagan who ask you, “what is the gospel that you preach, can you tell me?”

Tong
R3730

I told you a hundred times
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 faith and sacraments

 

[TheslightestID]

I challenge the OP, Ronald David Bruno to answer my challenge in post 314. Read the whole post and the actual challenge comes after the scripture in the post.

If you refuse to give straight answer to the question, that will prove you have no leg to stand on concerning your claims. All on the side of the OP who saw it, has skipped the challenge, so will you Ronald David Bruno, also pass on the challenge, the challenge that exposes the truth whether you take it or not?

 

[Curtis]

That is why I suggested you read Romans 5:1-8. If you need any help, I’d be glad to give you a hand.

Tong
R3728

I don’t need any help. What I posted is accurate.

 

[theefaith]

Does not say or imply faith alone
Read the chapter

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Clearly you don’t get what I said in my post, evidenced by quoting all those passages which does not address my post. Let me refresh you what I’ve written in my post.

“As I suggested read scriptures and find out what it says about grace. Find out also why it is by grace and not by another. Find out also why it is of faith and not by anything else. For it is most likely that you will not hear the truth concerning that from your teachers.”

Find out in scriptures what grace is.

Find out why the salvation of God is by grace and not by another.

Find out why the salvation of God is of faith and not of anything else.

If you can’t find that out and need some help, I’d be glad to give some.

how can it be faith alone and grace alone?

It’s not how can it be, but that, it is by grace and it is through faith.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Do you see what works get one to have, that is, what the one who works get out of his work? It is a wage or reward, which is counted as debt, and not counted as grace (χάρις, charis).

It must be clear then that any good work that the Christian does, what he gets is not grace, but a wage that is counted as debt (μισθός, mithos).

So, what is grace? It is not work nor it is what one gets out from his work.

Having said that, let’s go to the truth that the salvation of God is by grace, God’s grace. This truth is indisputable, as all truth are.

What are the obvious? One is that salvation is of God and not of man. Another is that the salvation of God is accomplished by God and not by man. Another is that the salvation of God is the work of God. And that the salvation of God is not by the working of man nor or it is by the works of man. For as had just been shown and explained, the salvation of God is by His grace and that grace is not work. That grace is not works, we have apostle Paul explaining that in the following passage:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Now it is also revealed in scriptures, about the salvation of God, that it is by grace through faith.

What do scriptures say as to why the salvation of God is through or by faith, and not by anything else such as not the works of the law of Moses, nor by the good works or by the working and works of the man?

Apostle Paul in Romans 4 was talking about the promise of God that He made to Abraham or to his seed, that he would be the heir of the world. Regarding this, Paul said that the promise was through the righteousness of faith. He went on to explain that it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham.

So as can be seen, the point of the promises of God being of faith, is so that it might be according to GRACE, and further so that, it might be SURE.

Tong
R3731

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Again and still misusing scriptures. Read carefully John 16:13 and find out to whom Jesus is addressing the whole time. And it seems you believe that those words of Christ was not accomplished or have not been fulfilled.

May I ask, in your church, did you have false teachers? If there were, what did they teach? Did you have anti-Christ? What did they teach?

And this point and warning of Paul still remains “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.” So it could be your most trusted Pope. He is no exception.

Make your choice. Just outright believe all that your Pope, bishops and priests teach and preach, or examine if what they teach and preach is in keeping with scriptures?

Speaking to his apostles in his church he founded on Peter matt 16:18

He was speaking to the twelve disciples He have chosen. Do you not believe that those things had already been fulfilled?

Now, keep in mind what apostle Paul said concerning the gospel:

“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

Now, what gospel the apostles preached was written in scriptures. If someone, be it your Pope, your bishops, your priests, your brethren, or even be an angel from heaven, preach another gospel than what the apostles preached that is written in scriptures, do not be deceived and believe them, rather let them be accursed.

Tong
R3732

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And if you reject what your Pope says, What does that make of you?

Have you rejected any that which your Pope says, or teach, or preach? If so, what would that be?

1st are referring to a valid pope who has authority from Christ?
And teaches the universal church with apostolic authority on matters of faith and morals?

I don’t know about your Pope. It is your church who comes up with a Pope. Whether your Pope is valid or not, that concerns you and your church, not me. If there is such as an invalid Pope in your church, that could only be the fault and failure of your church and is your problem, not mine.

And during the times of failure and fault of your church, it would mean that during those times, your church have not a successor of Peter. And that who seats at the seat of Peter, is a fake successor, not a valid successor, seated no less by your church. And if invalid, everything he says in his official capacity as your Pope, is invalid as well. And if he is not a valid Pope, he is then a false Pope. But still, even so, your church kiss his hand and seek his blessings. Your church still give him the honor and respect of a valid Pope. Why? And if your Pope is the vicar of Christ, what is a false Pope? Would he not be a vicar of a false Christ?

May I ask you, is your present Pope an invalid Pope? If invalid, why do you say he is invalid? Or is that only your own opinion and not your church’s opinion, that he is an invalid Pope?

Tong
R3733

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You have skipped some of the questions in my post. Well…..

It’s amazing that concerning your church or the blessed virgin Mary, you write a lot when answering questions. But concerning the gospel you preach, just that. And come to think of it, it is the gospel, that is supposed to be preached, which scriptures says is the power of God to salvation.

Any way, I will let go of that, since ot seems to me you are not interested to divulge.

I just wonder how you will give an answer to a pagan who ask you, “what is the gospel that you preach, can you tell me?”

I told you a hundred times
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 faith and sacraments

Well, a hundred times then I must say then, that is not the gospel the apostles preached. What gospel the apostles preach is about the person, life, works, death, and resurrection, ministry of Jesus, who was born of the virgin Mary, that He is the Son of God, the Christ, the Lord, the Savior. Apostle Paul says in relation to that, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

Tong
R3734

 

[Taken]

I agree about Vatican 2 but that’s not the church but a counterfeit like all Protestant sects

Nonsense.
Buildings, Names and Titles on Marqees of Buildings, Umpteen man-made doctrines, rules, rituals, traditions, philosophies IS NOT CHRISTS CHURCH.

Christs Church IS EXPRESSLY WITHIN individuals Who Believe IN (God and His Christ Messiah Jesus) AND WHO have Heartfully Confessed their Belief therein AND Trusted to Accept the Lord Gods WORKS WITHIN them.

What building they go to (or not), or on What day they they Praise and Worship their Lord God...or What they call their building where they gather....or what they call themselves... is irrelevant.

No man, No building, No sermon, No man-made doctrine, No title, No church...
IS PREFECT.

Gods Works IS "perfecting" souls & spirits WITHIN (physically bodily alive) individuals, regardless of who or where they are, or what they are called.
And it shall be THEY, whose souls & spirit IS perfected, who SHALL "later" receive a "perfected" body.

Meantime...the bodily alive, (with perfected souls and spirits) are given Jesus' Perfect body to reside in...while their physical body remains alive.... a mystery of God ....
AND (those particular men's) daily struggle, and daily burden...to "work out on their own".

God has provided the POWER to such men, to accomplish overcoming the physical desires with the spiritual will....."ALL the WHILE men "OF" the WORLD 24-7, via every possible venue, are encouraging (and often requiring/ forcing) men to take Freebie handouts to satisify the Physical Body and Oppress (silence) the Spiritual WILL of individual men.

** The fact is... Satan is a Beast. But even he is limited. He can encourage with cunning trickery, but he does not FORCE anyone to follow him.

** The fact is....Men "of" the World are the Beasts who are "influenced" by Satan.....but go beyond cunning trickery....and resort to "FORCE". They sit in seats of authority, Dictating, Demanding, Silencing Spiritual will, Forcing men to be subject to, "their corrupt flesh will".

Keep your eyes peeled, your ears open...
Prophecy is unfolding. Time is at hand "that" men are individually prepared, IN God and IN He whom God Sent.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

figure of speech

Figure of speech ?
Eh, that phrase is acceptable for mans general conversation.
However I do not lean on that Phrase (figure of speech), regarding Gods Spiritual Word.

Go to each one and it says thee church at this location
Jn 10:16
7 folds?
7 covenants?
7 kingdoms?
No one universal Catholic Church

I am aware of the early "buildings" described as "churches".
* The teaching of Christ Jesus, began with a handful of Jewish men, no building, and their Teacher, Jesus.
* the Teaching was spread out to other Jewish individual men.
* then further out to Jewish synagogs, converting Jews in the synagogs, to churches, as their members began accepting Jesus.
* then further out to all the Tribesmen.
* then with Paul, sent out to Preach primarily to Gentiles, along with Jews and Tribesmen.
* As Gentiles began joining in the God & Jesus belief...Appointments of Gentiles began being the primary teachers in the newly created/ man-built Churches.
* Gentiles primarily governing over the man-built Churches, began collations, meetings, counsels....resulting in man-made rules, doctrines, appointed "leaders", titling men, exalting men in appointed positions, and calling their "churches'... the ONLY TRUE church of Jesus Christ.....
* men, women, children Flocked to these so called ... ONLY TRUE CHURCHES of Jesus Christ.
(And not to Dismiss, thousands of men, women, children WHO flocked to these so called....ONLY TRUE CHURCHES of Jesus Christ.... were ILLERATE
They were dependant soley on what they were TOLD, without option of access to Scripture to READ and VERIFY what they were TOLD was true of not.).
* The counsels, meetings, of the "appointed" continued, the man-made rules, doctrines, rituals, demands, preaching, teaching to the illiterate, and no option to verify continued exponentially.
* During the passage of time...illiteracy and availability to Verify in written Scripture became materialized.
* Many persons felt duped, by mans made up Doctrines and Received no valid explanations, and were simple booted out of the congregations (of these supposed "only True Churches), or voluntarily left.
* the Same Churches continue today, touting being "the only True Church of Jesus Christ", with the Same and expanded Doctrines, with the Same demand, to follow their man-made Doctrines, philosophies, rules, traditions, rituals... or risk being booted out.

Christ Jesus' ONLY True Church, and His Spiritual Doctrine of His Holy Word, is WITHIN an individual man, and such Individual, IS NEVER booted out.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That is why I suggested you read Romans 4:1-8. If you need any help, I’d be glad to give you a hand.

I don’t need any help. What I posted is accurate.

*Passage correction on typo error was made, from Rom.5:1-8 to Romans 4:1-8.

I am afraid, you might just get no help, even from the Helper if you say that.

Let’s look at what justification by works is. That would be being declared righteous on account of works done, right?

Is that justification, grace?

Now read what Romans 4:4 says relative to that.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

James speaks of Abraham as was justified by faith and also as was justified by works. Obviously those two justifications are not the same, one being of faith and the other of works. The former being grace and the latter being not. Not only are they not the same, but they are opposites, in like sense that grace and debt are opposites.

While the Christian is by grace justified by God on account of faith, he gets no justification in the sight of man, who sees not the faith that God sees in the man. For the Christian to be justified in the sight of man, practical works needs be done by the Christian, works that would show the faith he have. James put this across by the example of Abraham.

Tong
R3735

 

[theefaith]

It’s not how can it be, but that, it is by grace and it is through faith.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Do you see what works get one to have, that is, what the one who works get out of his work? It is a wage or reward, which is counted as debt, and not counted as grace (χάρις, charis).

It must be clear then that any good work that the Christian does, what he gets is not grace, but a wage that is counted as debt (μισθός, mithos).

So, what is grace? It is not work nor it is what one gets out from his work.

Having said that, let’s go to the truth that the salvation of God is by grace, God’s grace. This truth is indisputable, as all truth are.

What are the obvious? One is that salvation is of God and not of man. Another is that the salvation of God is accomplished by God and not by man. Another is that the salvation of God is the work of God. And that the salvation of God is not by the working of man nor or it is by the works of man. For as had just been shown and explained, the salvation of God is by His grace and that grace is not work. That grace is not works, we have apostle Paul explaining that in the following passage:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Now it is also revealed in scriptures, about the salvation of God, that it is by grace through faith.

What do scriptures say as to why the salvation of God is through or by faith, and not by anything else such as not the works of the law of Moses, nor by the good works or by the working and works of the man?

Apostle Paul in Romans 4 was talking about the promise of God that He made to Abraham or to his seed, that he would be the heir of the world. Regarding this, Paul said that the promise was through the righteousness of faith. He went on to explain that it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham.

So as can be seen, the point of the promises of God being of faith, is so that it might be according to GRACE, and further so that, it might be SURE.

Tong
R3731

Is this works
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[theefaith]

He was speaking to the twelve disciples He have chosen. Do you not believe that those things had already been fulfilled?

Now, keep in mind what apostle Paul said concerning the gospel:

“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

Now, what gospel the apostles preached was written in scriptures. If someone, be it your Pope, your bishops, your priests, your brethren, or even be an angel from heaven, preach another gospel than what the apostles preached that is written in scriptures, do not be deceived and believe them, rather let them be accursed.

Tong
R3732

The other gospel is Protestantism came 1500 yrs later

 

[theefaith]

I don’t know about your Pope. It is your church who comes up with a Pope. Whether your Pope is valid or not, that concerns you and your church, not me. If there is such as an invalid Pope in your church, that could only be the fault and failure of your church and is your problem, not mine.

And during the times of failure and fault of your church, it would mean that during those times, your church have not a successor of Peter. And that who seats at the seat of Peter, is a fake successor, not a valid successor, seated no less by your church. And if invalid, everything he says in his official capacity as your Pope, is invalid as well. And if he is not a valid Pope, he is then a false Pope. But still, even so, your church kiss his hand and seek his blessings. Your church still give him the honor and respect of a valid Pope. Why? And if your Pope is the vicar of Christ, what is a false Pope? Would he not be a vicar of a false Christ?

May I ask you, is your present Pope an invalid Pope? If invalid, why do you say he is invalid? Or is that only your own opinion and not your church’s opinion, that he is an invalid Pope?

Tong
R3733

By their fruits you shall know them
What they teach

 

[theefaith]

Well, a hundred times then I must say then, that is not the gospel the apostles preached. What gospel the apostles preach is about the person, life, works, death, and resurrection, ministry of Jesus, who was born of the virgin Mary, that He is the Son of God, the Christ, the Lord, the Savior. Apostle Paul says in relation to that, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

Tong
R3734

It’s our gospel we wrote it, your faith alone gospel is the fake gospel

 

[theefaith]

Nonsense.
Buildings, Names and Titles on Marqees of Buildings, Umpteen man-made doctrines, rules, rituals, traditions, philosophies IS NOT CHRISTS CHURCH.

Christs Church IS EXPRESSLY WITHIN individuals Who Believe IN (God and His Christ Messiah Jesus) AND WHO have Heartfully Confessed their Belief therein AND Trusted to Accept the Lord Gods WORKS WITHIN them.

What building they go to (or not), or on What day they they Praise and Worship their Lord God...or What they call their building where they gather....or what they call themselves... is irrelevant.

No man, No building, No sermon, No man-made doctrine, No title, No church...
IS PREFECT.

Gods Works IS "perfecting" souls & spirits WITHIN (physically bodily alive) individuals, regardless of who or where they are, or what they are called.
And it shall be THEY, whose souls & spirit IS perfected, who SHALL "later" receive a "perfected" body.

Meantime...the bodily alive, (with perfected souls and spirits) are given Jesus' Perfect body to reside in...while their physical body remains alive.... a mystery of God ....
AND (those particular men's) daily struggle, and daily burden...to "work out on their own".

God has provided the POWER to such men, to accomplish overcoming the physical desires with the spiritual will....."ALL the WHILE men "OF" the WORLD 24-7, via every possible venue, are encouraging (and often requiring/ forcing) men to take Freebie handouts to satisify the Physical Body and Oppress (silence) the Spiritual WILL of individual men.

** The fact is... Satan is a Beast. But even he is limited. He can encourage with cunning trickery, but he does not FORCE anyone to follow him.

** The fact is....Men "of" the World are the Beasts who are "influenced" by Satan.....but go beyond cunning trickery....and resort to "FORCE". They sit in seats of authority, Dictating, Demanding, Silencing Spiritual will, Forcing men to be subject to, "their corrupt flesh will".

Keep your eyes peeled, your ears open...
Prophecy is unfolding. Time is at hand "that" men are individually prepared, IN God and IN He whom God Sent.

Glory to God,
Taken

Matthew 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth lightunto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[theefaith]

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

If Christ has authority (Matt 28:18 all authority) to change the commandments (Matt 5) then his church has authority!

Jn 20:21-23 The apostles in His church that He founded on Peter (Matt 16:18) and the apostles and their successors has the same mission, power, and authority as Jesus Christ!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission does Christ have?

The holy church, the apostles have the same authority, power, and mission, Christ choose successors to continue His mission, the apostles have the same authority! Jn 20:21-23

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments the abundant life of grace!

Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4

 

[theefaith]

Figure of speech ?
Eh, that phrase is acceptable for mans general conversation.
However I do not lean on that Phrase (figure of speech), regarding Gods Spiritual Word.



I am aware of the early "buildings" described as "churches".
* The teaching of Christ Jesus, began with a handful of Jewish men, no building, and their Teacher, Jesus.
* the Teaching was spread out to other Jewish individual men.
* then further out to Jewish synagogs, converting Jews in the synagogs, to churches, as their members began accepting Jesus.
* then further out to all the Tribesmen.
* then with Paul, sent out to Preach primarily to Gentiles, along with Jews and Tribesmen.
* As Gentiles began joining in the God & Jesus belief...Appointments of Gentiles began being the primary teachers in the newly created/ man-built Churches.
* Gentiles primarily governing over the man-built Churches, began collations, meetings, counsels....resulting in man-made rules, doctrines, appointed "leaders", titling men, exalting men in appointed positions, and calling their "churches'... the ONLY TRUE church of Jesus Christ.....
* men, women, children Flocked to these so called ... ONLY TRUE CHURCHES of Jesus Christ.
(And not to Dismiss, thousands of men, women, children WHO flocked to these so called....ONLY TRUE CHURCHES of Jesus Christ.... were ILLERATE
They were dependant soley on what they were TOLD, without option of access to Scripture to READ and VERIFY what they were TOLD was true of not.).
* The counsels, meetings, of the "appointed" continued, the man-made rules, doctrines, rituals, demands, preaching, teaching to the illiterate, and no option to verify continued exponentially.
* During the passage of time...illiteracy and availability to Verify in written Scripture became materialized.
* Many persons felt duped, by mans made up Doctrines and Received no valid explanations, and were simple booted out of the congregations (of these supposed "only True Churches), or voluntarily left.
* the Same Churches continue today, touting being "the only True Church of Jesus Christ", with the Same and expanded Doctrines, with the Same demand, to follow their man-made Doctrines, philosophies, rules, traditions, rituals... or risk being booted out.

Christ Jesus' ONLY True Church, and His Spiritual Doctrine of His Holy Word, is WITHIN an individual man, and such Individual, IS NEVER booted out.

Glory to God,
Taken

Christ builds his church on Peter matt 16:18 and the apostles eph 2:20