Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

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robert derrick

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Okay, cool. I'll explain.
The first Sabbath as we all know was instituted at creation, for, being the reason why, in six days the Lord created the heaven and earth and everything that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Now some say that that first seventh day was alone. That there is no command or evidence that the Sabbath continued in a weekly fashion. Yet the very existence of the seven day weekly cycle refutes that argument. Not to mention Exodus 16, which before the law was written, revealed an already existing Sabbath concerning which the Lord was reminding Israel to observe... To see if they will keep my judgments and my statues and my laws.
Then came sin. We don't know how long after creation sin entered the world. It doesn't matter. But sin changed everything. It destroyed relationships, and it brought death. So God needed to remedy the situation. First, He promised a savior. Speaking to Satan He said, He shall bruise your head. Later, He killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve. All sorts of imagery and symbols in there. The sacrificing of animals became the accepted true expression of faith in a coming Savior. A Savior who would Himself die in our place.
When Israel was established at Sinai, God revealed to them the gospel. He did that through the imagery and symbolism of the sanctuary service, the various feast days and rituals surrounding the offerings, and the work of the priest and High Priest in the sanctuary itself. All conveyed deep spiritual meaning and spiritual realities that were to teach object lessons regarding man's need of a savior, and God's mercy and grace in providing Him.
The feast days were particularly rich in meaning and depth. Each different day was to convey truths regarding the ministry of Messiah. The savior. We are all familiar with Passover. But there's also the wave sheaf, pentecost, atonement and Tabernacles, all integral to the gospel message, all essential components to the way of salvation for not only Israel, but the whole world because Jesus, the true Messenger or Angel of the covenant, came to fulfill every single detail of that original pictorial portrayal of the gospel to Israel, and Jesus came not just for Israel, but He came to save the world from sin. Those sabbaths, those yearly feast days, were the shadows spoken of by Paul in his letter. In the OT, strangers, that is people outside of Israel, were always welcome to join in the benefits of the sanctuary services and the gospel portrayed thereby, but Israel through it's self centeredness and introverted way shut them out. This was never God's intention.
Anyway. The sabbaths of those feast days were a part of the gospel remedy for the sin problem. They were separate and distinct to the weekly Sabbath. They fell on specific days of the calendar. There were three in the autumn, and I think four in the spring. I might have that back to front. Sorry, just writing from memory. But each one of those feast days were to find literal fulfillment in the future. Shadows of things to come. They were a prophecy. Each day was a prophecy of an event which would take place in the future which would accomplish righteousness, atonement, peace, forgiveness, mercy, grace and eternal life for mankind. And all of them accomplished in and through Christ. We've seen most of them fulfilled. One is in the process of being fulfilled now, the last one will be in the new earth.
The weekly Sabbath was never a part of the gospel... The remedy for sin. The weekly Sabbath was instituted before sin. It continued after sin. And it will continue in the new earth long after the gospel is completed in the final removal of sin and death from all creation. The weekly Sabbath is as long enduring as the law itself. And in observing and accepting the Sabbath in ones life, one is revealing that God has authority as Creator and Savior in your life.
Observing the Sabbath, just as one observes any other Commandment, is not a means by which one gets to be saved, but obedience reveals that one is saved.
Now you will likely ask, does that mean that because I don't keep the Sabbath I am not saved? Not at all. I was not always a Sabbath keeper. I've been a Christian for over 45 years. I didn't immediately become a Sabbath keeper. Nor did I immediately overcome lust, greed, selfishness, covetousness, or idolatry. I didn't know what righteousness was...I didn't know what sanctification was... But right at the beginning of my Christian walk I asked God to make my life one He would approve of. So began a journey. Accepting the relevance and importance of the Sabbath was a part of that journey. It may not be a part of your journey. Yet. But we must be open to where the Spirit leads us.
There is no justification in scripture for setting aside any of God's Commandments. Not even the Sabbath.
Thank you for responding. Been busy but will respond in detail and hope you continued to do the same.

My purpose here is to completely understand you as a faithful Sabbath keeper by law. So I ask distinct questions and will try to repeat you to your approval.
1. You are correct. No one is judging another if they are giving God's judgment according to His law. We only wrongly judge others if we judge according to our own law as a lawgiver. (James 2)
2. I have defended you against the accusation that you believe salvation by works. However, I do believe you preach a continued salvation with necessary works of faith and obedience to God's law, in order to be saved unto the end. And since you believe Sabbath is still law of God in Christ, then that goes for obeying the Sabbath as law.

So, if I am not mistaken about you pertaining to point 2, then i look forward to responding to all you have said, and hopefully you will do the same. We don't have to agree, yet, in order to see exactly what you believe and don't believe.
 

amigo de christo

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Lets make this real simple . Someone said to focus on the law of love .
Okay lets focus on that . He who loves ME , keeps my teachings .
SO , do we love Christ , do we truly love God . The law of love
is this . TO LOVE GOD , TO LOVE CHRIST above all and then to Love our neighbor as our self .
The law of love would not contradict it would fullfill the actual righteousness of the law .
Our sacrifice is Christ , so that is who we rest in . But know this any love that comes from GOD
any grace that comes from God would not omit the righteousness of the law , would not make that void .
The new covenant is this , AND I shall write my laws in their hearts and in their minds and i shall be their GOD
and they shall be my people .
DO we then make void the law through grace , GOD forbid , yea we establish the law .
Thus if anyone teaches a love or a grace that justifies sin , they false . For the grace of GOD
that brings salvation teaches us to DENY that which is ungodly and to be living righteously , soberly and godly in this present would
as we wait for the coming of our King .
 
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atpollard

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May I suggest an alternative focus may also be biblical. It is God's grace by which we stain to righteousness right?
You are correct in that “defeated” was a poor choice of words.
I strongly reject the legalism that seeks to EARN salvation.
I strongly embrace the freedom to live a life free of fear in the SALVATION born of grace.

All of the “warnings” in this topic about sin vs salvation (directed at Christians) feels like graceless legalism rather than a warning against sinful hedonism.
 

atpollard

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@robert derrick
You transition too freely between the sin and the lifestyle … as if they were synonymous.

The TOPIC (title) is “Lie, Steal, and Fornicate”.
Is everyone that tells a lie, a LIAR?
Is everyone that takes a pen from work, a THIEF?
Is everyone that falls to a sexual temptation, a FORNICATOR?

Do I look fat?” … will a less than truthful answer make me a LIAR and cost me my salvation?
Revelation 21:8 [NKJV] "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
 
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atpollard

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Let all that has breath praise the glorious Lord .
Psalm 147:1-11
1 Praise the LORD!
For it is good to sing praises to our God;
For it is pleasant, and praise is beautiful.

2 The LORD builds up Jerusalem;
He gathers together the outcasts of Israel.
3 He heals the brokenhearted
And binds up their wounds.
4 He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name.
5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.
6 The LORD lifts up the humble;
He casts the wicked down to the ground.

7 Sing to the LORD with thanksgiving;
Sing praises on the harp to our God,
8 Who covers the heavens with clouds,
Who prepares rain for the earth,
Who makes grass to grow on the mountains.
9 He gives to the beast its food,
And to the young ravens that cry.

10 He does not delight in the strength of the horse;
He takes no pleasure in the legs of a man.
11 The LORD takes pleasure in those who fear Him,
In those who hope in His mercy.​
 

Phoneman777

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That is not what the Peshitta means. Only the translation of George Lamas is biased that it is the original Sabbath and not another one.
EVERY translation should translate the word as such, but by the time of the Reformation, the Antichrist system had convinced the entire world that Sunday was the "Christian Sabbath" -- a teaching found ZERO places in Scripture -- which would understandably lead the translators to select the innocuous "rest" instead of just translating it as it is, right or wrong?

We just gonna ignore the fact that the entire passage uses "kataposis" for "rest" up until we get to verse 9 where the word is "Sabbatismos", which word anyone with a shred of theological contextual honesty will agree refers to the "weekly Sabbath" which is mentioned over and over in this passage? Of course most will ignore this, because they are not "willing to do His will" that they "will know of the doctrine".

Verse 10 says we are to rest from our own works "as God did from His". Did God rest from works of sin or working to attain salvation? No, from rolled up sleeves work. What day did He rest? The seventh day. Why don't Christians repent of Sabbath breaking NOW and avoid the rush at doomsday when it will be too late?
 
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CharismaticLady

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EVERY translation should translate the word as such, but by the time of the Reformation, the Antichrist system had convinced the entire world that Sunday was the "Christian Sabbath", a teaching found ZERO places in Scripture.

We just gonna ignore the fact that the entire passage uses "kataposis" for "rest" up until we get to verse 9 where the word is "Sabbatismos", which word anyone with a shred of theological contextual honesty will agree refers to the "weekly Sabbath" which is mentioned over and over in this passage? Of course most will ignore this, because they are not "willing to do His will" that they "will know of the doctrine".

Read it in context. It is not talking about the Sabbath anymore than it was talking about Joshua and the Promised Land. The conclusion of the chapter is about Grace. It is not of our works, like keeping a physical day, but trust in God, which the Israelites didn't do; they turned to other gods.

Phoneman, if you want to keep the Sabbath Day, do it. God will honor you for doing what you truly believe. You just can't use Hebrews 4 as your proof. Find something else or you'll just look silly. Even when I was SDA as a young woman, they taught that Hebrews 4 was proven that the rest in God in that text did not point us to keeping the Sabbath. At least they knew that was not the context, but grace. Now every SDA pointss to Hebrews 4. Oy vey!
 

robert derrick

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@robert derrick
You transition too freely between the sin and the lifestyle … as if they were synonymous.

The TOPIC (title) is “Lie, Steal, and Fornicate”.
Is everyone that tells a lie, a LIAR?
Is everyone that takes a pen from work, a THIEF?
Is everyone that falls to a sexual temptation, a FORNICATOR?

Do I look fat?” … will a less than truthful answer make me a LIAR and cost me my salvation?
Revelation 21:8 [NKJV] "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
We agree that there is a clear difference between sins of believers vs transgressions and abounding iniquity of unbelievers.

Ex: A Christian can use a word considered profane by the world, but that does not make him a profanely corrupt and full of cursing lips heathen. To say so is the imposed letter of the law upon the saints: I likewise and wholeheartedly reject graceless legalism.

Afterall, the Bible speaks of 'bastards', and yet a sight such as this may object to it as cursing. Also, a Christian using a 'curse word' to accurately describe something, or even using such in a moment of happy comedy, does not make him a transgressor.

And so, what we really have a disagreement about is the fact that a Christian can go from being a happy exclaimer of 'curse words' to a bitter, angry, and corrupt heathen full of cursing lips.

I.e. you probably don't believe someone having tasted of the heavenly gift of salvation returning to the corruption of ungodliness and being blotted out from the book of Life, that he was once written in.

I.e. He that was a believer and is not a believer...(Rev 17: 8) He that was written in the Lamb's book of life, and is not written in the Lamb's book of life, because His name has been blotted out from the Lamb's book of life by reason of abundant transgressions and dead coldness to the love of God.

The branch that abides not in the Vine is that branch which by it's own heavy weight of dead sin and trespasses falls off the Vine and is cast into the fire by men and angels of the Husbandman.

We are saved by grace through faith and we are saved unto the end by grace through faith with works of faith. We begin the race by grace through faith, but we only finish the race by grace with the works of faith.

No works of faith, faith is dead; whether faith was alive at one time or not, it is dead now, and that is the judgment of God by Scripture.
 
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Phoneman777

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What "law" is Paul speaking of here:

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

So what is the conclusion of receiving the Spirit?

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

What law are we free from? Just the ceremonial laws, or the Ten Commandments, because the law of LOVE has been written on our hearts?
If we're free from the law of "thou shalt not bear false witness", then why does the LAST chapter of the LAST book of the Bible say "liars" will not enter the kingdom of heaven? Because we are NOT now nor will we ever be free to violate any of the Ten Commandments and "Christians" who refuse to repent of Sabbath breaking after the Holy Spirit convicts them of the truth of our need to keep it will be wondering how the hell did they end up outside with the rest of the wicked awaiting the fire to fall down from God upon them.
 

robert derrick

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If we're free from the law of "thou shalt not bear false witness", then why does the LAST chapter of the LAST book of the Bible say "liars" will not enter the kingdom of heaven? Because we are NOT now nor will we ever be free to violate any of the Ten Commandments and "Christians" who refuse to repent of Sabbath breaking after the Holy Spirit convicts them of the truth of our need to keep it will be wondering how the hell did they end up outside with the rest of the wicked awaiting the fire to fall down from God upon them.
Correct. We are not free from the law of Christ that bearing false witness (Rom 13:9) and lying is a transgression of God (Rev 22).

But we free from the law of Moses that keeping Sabbath is commanded in the law of Christ.

Supply the Scripture that says so, even as I have for bearing false witness.
 

Phoneman777

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Read it in context. It is not talking about the Sabbath anymore than it was talking about Joshua and the Promised Land. The conclusion of the chapter is about Grace. It is not of our works, like keeping a physical day, but trust in God, which the Israelites didn't do; they turned to other gods.

Phoneman, if you want to keep the Sabbath Day, do it. God will honor you for doing what you truly believe. You just can't use Hebrews 4 as your proof. Find something else or you'll just look silly. Even when I was SDA as a young woman, they taught that Hebrews 4 was proven that the rest in God in that text did not point us to keeping the Sabbath. At least they knew that was not the context, but grace. Now every SDA pointss to Hebrews 4. Oy vey!
No, it is you who should read it in context. The CONTEXT continuously refers to the seventh day Sabbath rest as a sign that God's people are worshiping the One Who has done everything necessary for their salvation, and Paul here makes so plain that the same sign is for the Church that even a blind man can see it.

I don't know what liberal SDA church you grew up in, but Grace is not a License to steal, lie, worship Satan, or break the Sabbath which Hebrews 4:9 KJV plainly says remains a sign for Christians that we are resting in Jesus for salvation, just as fidelity in marriage is a sign that both are committed to each other, NOT A MEANS OF PROCURRING THAT COMMITMENT.

Please, let's keep cart behind the horse, OK? We obey because we are saved, not in order to be saved, but obey WE MUST.
 

Phoneman777

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Keeping a physical day is the letter of the law. The Spirit of that law is trust in Jesus. He is our rest, not a day.
Hebrews 4:9 KJV says literally resting on the Sabbath day is an outward evidence of the inward rest we have in Jesus, just as baptism is the outward sign of our death, burial, and resurrection in Jesus which should have already taken place within the person being baptized. Sadly, today the church watches many dry pagans go down in baptism and come up merely wet pagans.

Seriously, what more powerful statement of "grace" could there be than God telling those who deserve only to work forever as recompense for the crime of killing His dear Son to "SABBATH" once a week and spend time with Him? There is no other greater statement and is why God chose the weekly SABBATH as the sign that He Creator of all and now ReCreator of our hearts within us.
 

Phoneman777

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The Ten Commandments was the first covenant, not the new covenant. What is written on our hearts is to LOVE God with all our strength, mind and heart, and to LOVE our neighbor. The Ten Commandments was based on that eternal law, but fell short of it. You think that hate was always part of the Ten Commandments, and that Jesus was sent to magnifying them. But Galatians 3:19 shows they were only in effect UNTIL JESUS CAME. Why? Do you know?
If the Law God wrote in stone was the Old Covenant, then you should be able to substitute "Old Covenant" for "Law" in Romans 3:31 KJV. Please let me know how that works out, OK?
 

Phoneman777

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I would ask, do you meet the standard of the law of love which you speak of?
Eternally Grateful is the typical deluded "hyper-grace" OSAS person in church who boldly shoves his License to Sin in everyone's face while claiming to have a corner on market of love and compassion, but as soon as someone reminds him that God's mercy is only for the one who "confesseth and forsaketh" his sins (Proverbs 28:13 KJV), the horns, fangs, and claws can't help but spring forth.
 
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Phoneman777

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Yet those same commands condemn you where you stand

focus on the law of love.
If you love God, you'll keep the first four and if you love your neighbor, you'll keep the last six.

Your refusal to keep the fourth commandment proves your "love" for Jesus is divided with your love of lawbreaking aka "sin" according to 1 John 3:4 KJV. Repent now and avoid the rush at doomsday when it will be too late.
 

robert derrick

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Okay, cool. I'll explain.
The first Sabbath as we all know was instituted at creation, for, being the reason why, in six days the Lord created the heaven and earth and everything that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Now some say that that first seventh day was alone. That there is no command or evidence that the Sabbath continued in a weekly fashion. Yet the very existence of the seven day weekly cycle refutes that argument. Not to mention Exodus 16, which before the law was written, revealed an already existing Sabbath concerning which the Lord was reminding Israel to observe... To see if they will keep my judgments and my statues and my laws.
Then came sin. We don't know how long after creation sin entered the world. It doesn't matter. But sin changed everything. It destroyed relationships, and it brought death. So God needed to remedy the situation. First, He promised a savior. Speaking to Satan He said, He shall bruise your head. Later, He killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve. All sorts of imagery and symbols in there. The sacrificing of animals became the accepted true expression of faith in a coming Savior. A Savior who would Himself die in our place.
When Israel was established at Sinai, God revealed to them the gospel. He did that through the imagery and symbolism of the sanctuary service, the various feast days and rituals surrounding the offerings, and the work of the priest and High Priest in the sanctuary itself. All conveyed deep spiritual meaning and spiritual realities that were to teach object lessons regarding man's need of a savior, and God's mercy and grace in providing Him.
The feast days were particularly rich in meaning and depth. Each different day was to convey truths regarding the ministry of Messiah. The savior. We are all familiar with Passover. But there's also the wave sheaf, pentecost, atonement and Tabernacles, all integral to the gospel message, all essential components to the way of salvation for not only Israel, but the whole world because Jesus, the true Messenger or Angel of the covenant, came to fulfill every single detail of that original pictorial portrayal of the gospel to Israel, and Jesus came not just for Israel, but He came to save the world from sin. Those sabbaths, those yearly feast days, were the shadows spoken of by Paul in his letter. In the OT, strangers, that is people outside of Israel, were always welcome to join in the benefits of the sanctuary services and the gospel portrayed thereby, but Israel through it's self centeredness and introverted way shut them out. This was never God's intention.
Anyway. The sabbaths of those feast days were a part of the gospel remedy for the sin problem. They were separate and distinct to the weekly Sabbath. They fell on specific days of the calendar. There were three in the autumn, and I think four in the spring. I might have that back to front. Sorry, just writing from memory. But each one of those feast days were to find literal fulfillment in the future. Shadows of things to come. They were a prophecy. Each day was a prophecy of an event which would take place in the future which would accomplish righteousness, atonement, peace, forgiveness, mercy, grace and eternal life for mankind. And all of them accomplished in and through Christ. We've seen most of them fulfilled. One is in the process of being fulfilled now, the last one will be in the new earth.
The weekly Sabbath was never a part of the gospel... The remedy for sin. The weekly Sabbath was instituted before sin. It continued after sin. And it will continue in the new earth long after the gospel is completed in the final removal of sin and death from all creation. The weekly Sabbath is as long enduring as the law itself. And in observing and accepting the Sabbath in ones life, one is revealing that God has authority as Creator and Savior in your life.
Observing the Sabbath, just as one observes any other Commandment, is not a means by which one gets to be saved, but obedience reveals that one is saved.
Now you will likely ask, does that mean that because I don't keep the Sabbath I am not saved? Not at all. I was not always a Sabbath keeper. I've been a Christian for over 45 years. I didn't immediately become a Sabbath keeper. Nor did I immediately overcome lust, greed, selfishness, covetousness, or idolatry. I didn't know what righteousness was...I didn't know what sanctification was... But right at the beginning of my Christian walk I asked God to make my life one He would approve of. So began a journey. Accepting the relevance and importance of the Sabbath was a part of that journey. It may not be a part of your journey. Yet. But we must be open to where the Spirit leads us.
There is no justification in scripture for setting aside any of God's Commandments. Not even the Sabbath.

In the spirit of being accurate and perfectly understanding one another:
1. Disobeying the Sabbath is accurate, because Scripture speaks of not profaning the Sabbath?
2. "Jesus said He didn't come to change the law."
Jesus did not come to destroy the law. Changing the law is a different matter?
3. "The weekly Sabbath was never a shadow of anything to do with remedial activity to the sin issue."
What does 'remedial activity to sin issue' mean? Is there difference between being a shadow of good things vs being a shadow of antitype things?

Now for your responses, and thank you:
"The first Sabbath as we all know was instituted at creation, for, being the reason why, in six days the Lord created the heaven and earth and everything that is in them, and rested the seventh day."

A day of rest was spoken of by way of example. No doubt, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc...followed that example as much as possible, but not by law given of God.

'Sabbath' was not so name until written as the first law of God by Moses in Ex 16. This is the first instituting of the 'Sabbath' of the Lord, which was making a carnal commandment out of an already known example of the Lord in a 7th day of rest. (Heb 7:16)

Therefore your statement is not accurate:

"Exodus 16, which before the law was written, revealed an already existing Sabbath concerning which the Lord was reminding Israel to observe..."

The Sabbath by name and command did not 'exist' in Scripture before Exodus 16, and the Lord was therefore not 'reminding' Israel, but rather for the 1st time commanding Israel: "And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD."

And the training for this law of Sabbath, newly commanded to the newly formed nation of Israel, was manna from heaven:

"Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none."

There was no law of the Sabbath for the believers of God before God gave it to Moses in the wilderness. There was no doubt a willing and free will practice of a day of rest by example of God, but not a law of carnal commandment to do so on pain of transgression.
 

Phoneman777

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Don't be absurd! How is that loving your neighbor? He would keep himself for his own wife that he loves.
Then you agree that if we keep the Spirit of the Law, by default we will keep the Letter of the Law. So, why all this confusion about the "Spirit" and "Letter"? The Sabbath, the point of thread. No one argues that refraining from lust means we can disregard the commandment to not commit adultery, so why is it that people argue resting in Jesus means we can BREAK the Sabbath? Several reasons:

They love how things are now and don't wish to change.
They love their job and don't want to lose it.
They love their spouse and don't want to lose him/her.
They love their friends and don't want to lose them.
They love their coveted position in church leadership and don't want to lose it.

They love EVERYTHING but the truth, and don't realize in the end they will be damned because "they received not love of the truth, that they might be saved."
 

Phoneman777

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Huh? What do you believe is the Law of Liberty? Liberty from what?
Liberty from punishment, of course! The same law that is a Law of Liberty to me is a Law of Sin to those who refuse to repent.

"There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." See that? Those who are keeping the Spirit of the Ten Commandments are by default keeping the Letter of the Ten Commandments, while those who refuse to repent and keep the Sabbath will in the end suffer the wrath of God "upon every soul that doeth evil".