The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[brightfame52]

A Union when Christ died !

Eph 5:25-32

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

If understood properly, Paul is stating that Christ was in Union, was One with His Church, when He died or gave Himself for Her, just as a Husband is One and in Union with His wife. Paul points that out in vs 32, it was a Mystery, and a Mystery of the Gospel See Eph 6:19 416

Now when eve transgressed, was she not already one with Adam ? If so, Christ was also One with His Church when He gave Himself for Her, or else there is no corresponding analogy in the one to the other, but Paul indicates that it was. If Christ gave Himself for the Church vs 25, His betrothed Bride, then evidently it was His Church before He gave Himself for it, which means He was in Union with sinners before He died for them, those sinners that composed His Church. Now ask yourself this question, were all sinners in the world without exception composed of His Church ? No.

 

[brightfame52]

John 17:9

John 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

In John 17:9 The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediatorial Prayer, makes Intercession, not for everyone without exception, but only for those given to Him see Jn 6:37 also, which points back to His Sheep Jn 10:29

29 My Father, which gave them[The Sheep] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

In addition such statements as Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

All these prove without a shadow of doubt the Limited intention of Christ's Death, and the limited objects of His Love !

 

[Kermos]

Sure they can! A modern translation makes this easier to understand.

I used an accurate to the Greek modern translation of "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

Here is the link to the Greek Interlinear proving the accuracy of the text I quoted, 1 John 5:19 Interlinear: we have known that of God we are, and the whole world in the evil doth lie; .

Your "modern translation" of "the world around us is in the grips of the evil one." fails to render the Greek accurately.

Here are the added words of scripture for your "modern translation" (in order of appearance):

• around
• us
• is
• in
• grips
• of

Here are the subtracted words of scripture for your "modern translation":

• lies
• in

The word "evil" is an adjective; therefore, the word "evil" implies a subsequent noun, so the adjective modifies the noun of "one" since the adjective is singular.

Your "modern translation" leads to genuine confusion.

Yes, Christians have overcome the evil one but remain in his domain, this fallen world.

With the accurate translation, it is clear that the Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

"lies in the evil one" means to "abide in the evil one".

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13).

"have overcome" means "are beyond".

Based on the Apostle John's writings, Christians abide in Christ, and Christians in Christ are beyond the evil one.

One cannot be "lying inside the evil one" simultaneously that one is "outside beyond the evil one".

A little leaven leavens the whole loaf; therefore, for anyone to claim that they lie in the evil one is for such a one to claim evil leaven for themselves.

You previously acknowledged that you would lie in the evil one, yet Christians have overcome the evil one for the Apostle John.

 

[Wrangler]

Your "modern translation" of "the world around us is in the grips of the evil one." fails to render the Greek accurately.

I don't agree. You are trying to make a subtle point not found in Scripture. This world has fallen, which means under the control of the Adversary. While we, chosen by God, live in this world, we are not of this world.

 

[Kermos]

what makes you a Christian?

Christ! Praise the Lord!

 

[Kermos]

If I am not walking by the power of the Spirit, then of course. My personal condition will fluctuate until I have attained the full stature in Christ. Spiritual maturity is a long and hard fight. Being under the sway of the devil is the continuing default position of all who remain uncovered by the grace of the resurrected Christ. But I also know about the access to the salvation that is in Christ even when I am absent from the Lord and His abiding place. So when I am in the Spirit I am free from the sin in this world. The law of the Spirit is universal. It affects all who enter into Christ. But for me as an individual that is a journey towards the full stature of Christ. And it may well serve God's purpose for me to come out of the Spirit in order to appreciate the eternal weight the heavenly gift of life has. So I have learned to take nothing for granted. A person who is spiritually dead or asleep doesn't realize that they are outside being rained on by the devil. They accept religious doctrines that are mere abstractions that have no power over sin.

Do you claim to be personally saved from the power of sin by simply accepting that the historical Jesus redeemed the world away from the devil?

Jesus had to overcome the powers of this world in their entirety in order to give all men access to the grace that only a few will seek after.

The state of the modern church is weak in that a religious mind has no power over the flesh, the world and the devil.

Jesus said...ask anything in My name and it will be done. And if we had real faith we could do the impossible. So then a human belief is a poor replacement for the faith OF Jesus Christ.

When the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the earth?

I did not ask whether you are "walking by the power of the Spirit" (your words). You made your answer dependent upon "If I am not" (your words), so you made your answer arbitrary instead of concrete.

The question is concrete because I wrote "right now" in this question that I am resubmitting to you for a concrete answer:

@Episkopos, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

 

[Kermos]

kjv says

1 jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

The Greek word "πονηρῷ" is a singular adjective meaning "evil" or "wicked", yet the KJV translators translated this word to the noun "wickedness".

That word translation is a fail for the KJV translators.

The accurate translation of that word results in "evil one" such that "evil" is the adjective and "one" is the singular.

Back to the question for you:

@theefaith, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

 

[Kermos]

I don't agree. You are trying to make a subtle point not found in Scripture. This world has fallen, which means under the control of the Adversary. While we, chosen by God, live in this world, we are not of this world.

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), yet you wrote "You are trying to make a subtle point not found in Scripture", so you are subtracting these words of John.

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), yet you wrote "You are trying to make a subtle point not found in Scripture", so you are subtracting these words of John.

I wrote "part of 'the whole world'" in the question "do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?", yet you wrote "not of this world" in "While we, chosen by God, live in this world, we are not of this world", so you just contradicted your own answer of "yes" to the question since "yes" contradicts "we are not of this world".

Every point in scripture is crucial, yet you disagree with the Apostle John.

You wrote "This world has fallen, which means under the control of the Adversary", so you make it about "control" exclusively, even worse, you have the Adversary controlling Christians; however, the Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), so John makes it about lying in, which is like abiding in the evil one, and John makes it clear that Christians are not included in "the whole world" here because John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) IN THE SAME BOOK OF FIRST JOHN.

 

[Wrangler]

Every point in scripture is crucial, yet you disagree with the Apostle John.

I do not disagree with the Apostle John at all. I disagree with your take on what he wrote. The whole world is in the hands of the evil one but God's chosen are not part of this world. I really have no idea what your problem is with this but make a blessed day.

 

[brightfame52]

John 3:16 ; Eph 5:25

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Folks the World that God Loved and Gave His Son for, is the Church that Christ Loved and gave Himself for !

Lets do a word study here. The word for world is the greek word kosmos and means:

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Notice, that the world is any aggregate or general collection of particulars of ANY SORT !

We cannot ignore these definition.

Now what is this word aggregate mean ? Our english dictionary says:

formed by the conjunction or collection of particulars into a whole mass or sum; total; combined


a sum, mass, or assemblage of particulars; a total or gross amount:

Now notice the word assemblage as in assemblage of particulars. The word means:

a group of persons or things gathered or collected; an assembly; collection; aggregate.

Now I derive at this from a simple study of the word world !

Now lets look at the word Church in Eph 5:25. It is the greek word ekklēsia and means:

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating423

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting


the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

The Church is an assemblage ! And an Assemblage as we see is also a World !

So the World of Jn 3:16 that God so Loved, was none other than the Church that Christ Loved and gave Himself for !

The total collection and gathering of the sum total of all the Sheep as Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Yes, this One Fold of Sheep is the World God so loved !

So the word world does not have to mean everyone without exception !

The assembly of the Israelites alone technically by definition is a World ! The Assembly of the Spiritual Israelites, the Israel of God is a World !

 

[theefaith]

Christ! Praise the Lord!

How do you become a Christian?

 

[brightfame52]

2 Cor 5:21 Who are the Us ?

2 Cor 5:21

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This scripture here when properly understood, teaches that Christ did not die for everyone in the world without exception. The being made sin here speaks to Him being made a sin offering, as Isa 53 stated it here Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

And so, Paul says to the Corinthian Church this 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And so, who are the Our Sins Christ died for ? Why its the same ones Paul says later on in the second letter to the same, those who Christ was made sin in behalf of, and those are made the Righteousness of God in Him. So there you have it, we see who it is Christ died for, them only who are made Righteous See Rom 5:19b. Now are all men without exception made Righteous ? Then the Extent of Christ's Death could not have been for all men without exception ! It was for His Church which He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So He was made sin for the Church, His Body !

 

[Lambano]

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John is consistent in his view of what "The World" is: It does not know Christ (John 1:10), the people therein prefer darkness to light (John 3:18), it is under the rule of The Evil One (John 12:31, John 16:11, I John 5:19), it hates Christ (John 7:7, John 5:18), it does not see or know the Spirit of Truth. I maintain that John is being consistent in his usage of "Kosmos" in John 3:16 - 3:19:

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil."

It's very clear from the immediate context that "The World" is not just the Church. Did you see that "sozo" ("might be saved") is in the subjunctive mood (the mood of potential) in John 3:17? By the logic of this thread, if John meant "The Church", salvation would have been an accomplished fact.

I maintain that God's love for a Kosmos that doesn't know Him, who rejected His Son, who do not see His Spirit, is consistent with the character of a God who loves His enemies, who takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, who does not desire that any should perish, and desires that all should come to repentance.

I further maintain that John is consistent of his use of "Kosmos" in 1 John 2:1-2. God has provided a propitiation for the sins of the whole dark and hostile world. It is thus proper to say, "Christ died for the sins of each and every person without exception". It is also proper to say in evangelism, "Christ died for YOUR sins. But to share in all those blessings of Christ's death, a person must join themselves to Christ through faith. We have believed into Christ Jesus that we might be justified by Christ's faithful death upon the cross. (Galatians 2:16). Or perhaps we can say with Paul, we are baptized into His death (Romans 6:3). So, when I see a list those things that are effective only in believers, all I can say is, "Oh, but of course !".

 

[brightfame52]

John is consistent in his view of what "The World" is: It does not know Christ (John 1:10), the people therein prefer darkness to light (John 3:18), it is under the rule of The Evil One (John 12:31, John 16:11, I John 5:19), it hates Christ (John 7:7, John 5:18), it does not see or know the Spirit of Truth. I maintain that John is being consistent in his usage of "Kosmos" in John 3:16 - 3:19:

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil."

It's very clear from the immediate context that "The World" is not just the Church. Did you see that "sozo" ("might be saved") is in the subjunctive mood (the mood of potential) in John 3:17? By the logic of this thread, if John meant "The Church", salvation would have been an accomplished fact.

I maintain that God's love for a Kosmos that doesn't know Him, who rejected His Son, who do not see His Spirit, is consistent with the character of a God who loves His enemies, who takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, who does not desire that any should perish, and desires that all should come to repentance.

I further maintain that John is consistent of his use of "Kosmos" in 1 John 2:1-2. God has provided a propitiation for the sins of the whole dark and hostile world. It is thus proper to say, "Christ died for the sins of each and every person without exception". It is also proper to say in evangelism, "Christ died for YOUR sins. But to share in all those blessings of Christ's death, a person must join themselves to Christ through faith. We have believed into Christ Jesus that we might be justified by Christ's faithful death upon the cross. (Galatians 2:16). So, when I see a list those things that are effective only in believers, all I can say is, "Oh, but of course !".

You way off base, read my posts !

 

[theefaith]

Try Luke 2:
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

savior for all people

or Jn 1:29

 

[Kermos]

How do you become a Christian?

The Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

That is twice I answered your questions, so I would appreciate an answer from you to this question posed to you multiple times:

@theefaith, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

 

[Kermos]

I do not disagree with the Apostle John at all. I disagree with your take on what he wrote. The whole world is in the hands of the evil one but God's chosen are not part of this world. I really have no idea what your problem is with this but make a blessed day.

Wrangler, look at your writing "The whole world is in the hands of the evil one but God's chosen are not part of this world", but the Apostle John did not merely write "in the hands".

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), so John wrote "lies in" as in the whole world abides in the evil one.

The intensity of John's words far exceeds your words.

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), so John declared that Christians DO NOT abide in the evil one.

Wrangler, look at John's words "in the evil one".

Notice the word "in".

The preposition "in" applies to the direct object of "the evil one", so the word "in" is not a preposition of "the whole world".

This is an important point.

Now, let's look at the word "of".

Notice in my question, I used the word "of" in relation to the "you" being part of the "world", not "in", because "of" applies to "the whole world" while "in" applies to "the evil one".

Here is the question "do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?".

You wrote "I really have no idea what your problem is with this", yet I don't have a problem with the Apostle John's writing in 1 John 5:19 and 1 John 2:13 because I declare John meant that which he wrote.

I provided an explanation way back in post 1422 to you, Wrangler, about free willians abuse of the word "world".

I carefully explained this to you because I did not want to get in an exchange with you on this matter.

Here is a point from that post 1422 to you that I wanted you to read, 'This also means the word "world" does not have to mean every person everywhere when the word "world" is used in the Bible'.

As a good point of departure if you return to read the post is 'These two different meanings for the word "world", "the whole world", occur in one book of the New Testament'.

 

[theefaith]

The Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

That is twice I answered your questions, so I would appreciate an answer from you to this question posed to you multiple times:

@theefaith, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

that’s not what 1 John 5:19 says

 

[brightfame52]

Sanctified by His Death Permanently !

We know that Jesus Christ did not die for everyone without exception because by His Death or Offering, He has sanctified all for whom He was offered in behalf of permanently, once and for all ! Heb 10:10425

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Now can this be said of all without exception ? Is it true of the workers of Iniquity that Jesus will say this to Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do you really believe that these were sanctified once and for all by His Offering, or His Death , for His Offering and Death are the same thing you know ! His Death is a expiation Offering !

Now if Christ died for them He is speaking to in Matt 7:23, then they can say while in everlasting Fire, that I too have been sanctified once and for all by Christ's Death ! You see how inconsistent that is with the Lie that Christ died for all without exception ?

 

[Wrangler]

Wrangler, look at your writing "The whole world is in the hands of the evil one but God's chosen are not part of this world", but the Apostle John did not merely write "in the hands".

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19), so John wrote "lies in" as in the whole world abides in the evil one.

The intensity of John's words far exceeds your words.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Make a blessed day.