Freedom To Sin

[Addy]

Judgement is real

You are correct when you state judgment is real... however you are not correct in stating that
you are saved by the grace of God if you are judged worthy of that salvation.

Scripture clearly states that not one of us is worthy.... we all fall short... we are all sinners...
We are saved by the GRACE of GOD because God loves us... END of subject.

 

[Addy]

This is my first exchange with @post

He’s not off to a good start…

But I hope you’re right.

I absolutely assure you that from what I have seen @post is perhaps the most respectful debater I have met in the forums.
That does not mean he will agree with you... it means he sticks to the topic... and he expects answers to questions he asks in
order to keep the topic flowing.

 

[Addy]

but you would not know any of that until you submit to His working in you.

I'm going to let that insult pass but you are very close to being put on IGNORE. You keep feeling the need to TEACH people who have no interest in what you are selling... Sorry to be harsh ( like you stated yourself being yesterday )... but it is what it is.

 

[dev553344]

You are correct when you state judgment is real... however you are not correct in stating that
you are saved by the grace of God if you are judged worthy of that salvation.

Scripture clearly states that not one of us is worthy.... we all fall short... we are all sinners...
We are saved by the GRACE of GOD because God loves us... END of subject.

You left out the part that some are cast in the lake of fire while others are saved. Jesus clearly spells out works meet for repentance in the verses I've posted.

What scripture can you post that says no one will God find worthy of salvation? I only found who is not worthy of God:

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

 

[Addy]

@devin553344 ... You are catching me at the end of the day and honestly.... I have spent too much time here... I am waiting for a dog to arrive... One that I am going to be taking care of for the next two weeks...

So many of these debates never get resolved... I am sorry you feel this way about salvation... I feel it is a beautiful GIFT extended to ANYONE and EVERYONE who will simply believe in the finished ATONEMENT of CHRIST.

 

[dev553344]

@Addy when you're not busy... I did find two verses about worthy. And what does that word mean based of worth, did God desire to pay our debts because mankind was worth saving? Anyways, here are two verses...

Ephesians 4:1 - I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Matthew 22:8 - Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

These verses make it sound like we need to learn to walk in ways worthy to be saved.

 

[dev553344]

@Addy also see:

1 Timothy 5:18

For the Scripture saith, “Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his reward.”

 

[David H.]

I'm going to let that insult pass but you are very close to being put on IGNORE. You keep feeling the need to TEACH people who have no interest in what you are selling... Sorry to be harsh ( like you stated yourself being yesterday )... but it is what it is.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (Matthew 24:10)

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)

These verses SHOULD cause a healthy fear of God in those who proclaim they are saved. A healthy desire to seek assurance of salvation not in doctrine only but one of Knowing with certainty, that certainty only comes by yielding to the work of the Holy Ghost, a proud heart is unable to yield to the work of the Holy Ghost.

God Bless

 

[Addy]

Good GRIEF @David H. .... You have earned yourself IGNORE with all the Catholics.

 

[David H.]

Good GRIEF @David H. .... You have earned yourself IGNORE with all the Catholics.

Ignorance is bliss!

 

[dev553344]

Ignorance is bliss!

Don't worry, be rest assured the mods won't put you on ignore, they love us that way

 

[farouk]

It was a response to @farouk.



And i agree with eternal security as a doctrine, but the problem is it is not something that can be taught as a doctrine but rather something that must be arrived at by experiencing the full assurance of the faith that comes from Spiritual growth. This is why all the passages are there in scripture about conditional security, and I am sure if you have debated with anyone you know which passages i am speaking of. Coming to the full assurance of the faith must be lived through, The valley of doubt must be traversed before security and assurance of the faith arrived at. To deny a person this experience is to deny them the victory over their doubts which in the end will lead them to falling away from the truth.

With a right understanding of how both conditional security and eternal security play a role in the Christian journey this perceived divide between the two sides comes to a mutual and respectful understanding of One another. Those who do not want this sort of understanding see this as compromise on truth, But in reality it is arriving at the truth. This is what it means to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.... Some verses to consider.

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.(Colossians 2:2-8)

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:22)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13)

The Point of me bringing up John 15 is because this was the aha moment for me when i fully grasped what is said there. It is the Holy Spirit that yields the fruit of the Spirit in us, all we have to "do" is abide in the vine. The vine brings water (The Holy Ghost) to the branches without which the branch cannot produce fruit. fruit is not our work, but the work of the water, the lifeblood of the branch. Without the lifeblood there is no growth. Once a person begins to produce fruit, that is when a child of God is "pruned" this is the sanctification of the Spirit, that pruning process yields greater and greater fruit in us, and this pruning process is where we come to understand the full assurrance of the faith for we experience the Love of the Father for his sons and daughters as he disciplines and corrects us and we can only cry "Abba, Father"

So for me it is one thing to say we have eternal security, but you MUST live and experience the full assurance of the faith that comes from knowing the Love of God firsthand. It is then that he can begin to perfect his love in us. Until then we are merely teaching the traditions of men as opposed to Christ Jesus.

Just to give an analogy of this, a student can go to med school for eight years and if he has never had his residency he has never fully experienced what it means to operate on someone. He may know all the facts and what to do but he has no experience doing it. The fundamentalist textualist has studied scripture inside and out, and they know what it says, but they have not experienced those teachings.... Now I realize this is a generalization of the symptoms and not all fundamentalists are like this, but you can usually tell by how they respond to you raising a contrarian view on scripture, and you can see it here if you know how to look. What it boils down to is they are exclusivistic, and their camp gets smaller and smaller with each passing day, and Unity of The Spirit is never arrived at, and this is not a problem exclusively with the fundamentalist textualist But with the militant catholic or Calvinist or Methodist or whatever of the thousands of denominations and counting. Do You think this is how the blood bought church is supposed to be? Is she walking in the power of the Spirit or in the pride of man? The Pride of man is what keeps the church divided by claiming exclusivity of Truth, which is contrary to the apostle Paul who i dare say knew more than most yet he said he only knows in part. We as a church need to be more like Paul in this regard, and stop being hardened ground and instead be fertile ground for the seed to take hold and root in and grow.

If You read this, and you conclude that i am preaching legalism then you do not understand what Holiness is. Holiness is abiding in the vine, and letting the Holy Spirit work in you and teach you and thus allowing you to produce the fruit of the Spirit, and as Paul said, "against such there is no law" (Galatians 5:22-26). This is what it means to be free from sin.

A passage such as Romans 8 certainly does not teach that we have to arrive at some supposed state of sinless perfection before we are truly justified.

 

[David H.]

A passage such as Romans 8 certainly does not teach that we have to arrive at some supposed state of sinless perfection before we are truly justified.

I Am not speaking of justification here, Nor the instant sanctification that occurs at the time of conversion, and neither is Romans 8. Before you can get to Romans 8 a believer must walk through Romans 7, they have to reach the Point that Paul the Apostle reached...."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24) It is only in that moment of realization that we cannot accomplish the law of God of our own strength, that the Holy Spirit begins the process of Progressive sanctification.

i Do not Know if you are familiar with Watchman Nee at all, But he uses the analogy of Holding a book in the air. Gravity is constantly at work on that book and eventually our arms no matter how strong we are will give into gravity. This is what it means when we are under the law of sin and death. But when we live in the Spirit and operate Under the Law of the Spirit of life, It is like tying helium balloons to that book There is another law at work in us allowing us to hold up that book. Eventually enough lift is given that we begin to fly soaring to greater heights Spiritually. A Person who is a Christian who has never walked down this path eventually has dualistic nature, One for Public show, and then their secret sin life. In Fact Many churches are like this as well, they have a "front" that they show to everyone but concealed is all manner sin and their doctrine excuses this. When we fail to strive for Holiness, which can only come by the work of the Holy Ghost in our lives we are giving in to our sinful nature. Fundamentalist textualist (The extreme free grace camp) are amongst the most guilty of this because their strength comes from the wisdom of this world And their doctrine is built on this excusing of sin and not repenting and growing spiritually. Oh They do repent when they are exposed like Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Bakker did But that is merely worldly sorrow so they like Esau "seek it with tears" Because they want their earthly riches restored.

It is also many of the teachers in the church that are the worse off in this regard. How many times have we heard of scandals like this in the leadership of the church? They are the worse off because they reach a point of being unteachable, they are puffed up in their own understanding doctrine and particular theology that they cannot see their own errors and correct them. Their leadership role does not allow them to show weakness or lack of understanding of the Mysteries of God, and that is Because they are not true leaders but rather usurpers of authority. They are not called of God but make a career choice to lead a flock and their ego is puffed up by this authority bestowed upon them. Now, I am fully aware that there are some who are called of God at a young age to serve as shepherds in the church, But this office should be held by elders according scripture. Elders who have walked the path of a saint and grown and matured Spiritually to the point these sorts of temptations cannot take root. For example, Paul Spent three years in the wilderness of Arabia being prepared for His Journey And that is what God does when he calls you, It is called the fiery trial, the wilderness where you learn to rely on Him and His providence and leading, Like the Israelites of Old or John the Baptist. This is in my opinion the purpose of the wilderness spoken of in Revelation 12 as well. That we will see the church go into the wilderness, during a time of severe persecution of the saints, Some will suffer captivity some will face death, and some will give in to the seduction of the world and the Mark of the beast and some will never grow Spiritually, and come out of the wilderness riding on the beast that ascends out of the Bottomless pit who has killed the two witnesses whose Prophesying they were unable to receive and found no room for repentance. (forgive me for getting side tracked)

To answer your question specifically, when we are producing Spiritual fruit we are yielded to the work of the Spirit, But when we fail to yield is when we become fruitless. "sinless perfection" is the wrong way to view what Is being said here, fruitfulness is and "against such there is no law". When we are producing fruit we are living in Holiness, When we cease from this we are living in carnality. The More we grow Spiritually the more fruit we produce and the more we grow Spiritually, and the more we are aware of our sin and weaknesses that keep us from being fruitful. This is the difference between being in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. Paul writes: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Galatians 5: 16-18) AND.... That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)

When we are saved the Spirit comes into us and we are in the Spirit, and like a child we must learn to walk in the Spirit Which is the edification Paul uses to illustrate this point in Galatians 5:25 ... "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Learning to walk in the Spirit is when Holiness and overcoming our sinful nature begins. That is when we will overcome this giant in the Land, Not by power or by might But By His Spirit.

God Bless

 

[Curtis]

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says they had heard him preach the gospel, had received it, and stand in it, and they are saved:


1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;


1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved,


That’s it’s right? Done deal, their salvation forever settled, end of debate, OSAS is true.


EXCEPT.


Paul’s next words make their salvation conditional, by warning them that though they’d heard the gospel, received it, stand in it, and ARE SAVED, that they can end up believing IN VAIN, ifthey don’t keep in mind all that he taught them:


1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;


1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, IF - ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.


What was it that Paul preached them, that they had to keep in memory that he had preached it to them, that can affect their salvation, and cause their receiving the gospel, standing in it, and being saved, to be IN VAIN?


He taught them that he has to control and subjugate his flesh daily, lest after preaching to others, he himself would end up a CASTAWAY - adokimos in the Greek. - a reprobate (rejected by God as one that failed the test).


1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


By subjugation of his body, Paul refers to the flesh, the fleshly desire to sin, i e, commit works of the flesh, as seen in another of Paul’s warnings to the saints, to the brethren, about living sinfully.


Gal 5:16 This - I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


He also warned the brethren to examine themselves to see if they were still in the faith, or had become reprobate:


2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


Paul in fact gave warning after warning to the brethren, to be not deceived, about the consequences of living a lifestyle of sinning, such as being an adulterer, or drunkard, or thief, etc.


He warned the brethren that some of them were THIEVES because they’d defrauded their brethren, then warned the church against being deceived into thinking they could steal, or commit other serious sins, and still enter into the kingdom of heaven


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD, and that your - BRETHREN.


1Co 6:9 Know yenot that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES (such as those who DEFRAUD the BRETHREN) nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.


Notice in verse 11 he states that some of the brethren used to live that way, but stopped after salvation - but we’ve already seen that some of them were ALSO living in sin by defrauding their brethren and stealing from them:


1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


There’s no OSAS in Paul’s many warnings to the brethren and saints about living sinfully as believers.


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE YOU with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the childrenof disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.


1Ti 3:2 A church leader must be without fault; he must have only one wife, be sober, self-controlled, and orderly; he must welcome strangers in his home; he must be able to teach;

1Ti 3:3 he must not be a drunkard or a violent man, but gentle and peaceful; he must not love money;

1Ti 3:4 he must be able to manage his own family well and make his children obey him with all respect.

1Ti 3:5 For if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of the church of God?

1Ti 3:6 He must be mature in the faith, so that he will not swell up with pride and be condemned, as the Devil was.

 

[David H.]

EXCEPT.


Paul’s next words make their salvation conditional, by warning them that though they’d heard the gospel, received it, stand in it, and ARE SAVED, that they can end up believing IN VAIN, ifthey don’t keep in mind all that he taught them:

This is an excellent explanation of Paul's full council so often left out. Everywhere Paul Speaks of not relying on works to save He goes on to Speak of walking in the Spirit, producing fruit, the work of the Spirit in us.... My Favorite example is how everyone was taught to memorize Ephesians 2:8-9 but they ignore verse 10, and is worth repeating here, and worth memorizing along with Verses 8-9
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[Curtis]

A passage such as Romans 8 certainly does not teach that we have to arrive at some supposed state of sinless perfection before we are truly justified.

I believe you need to look at Romans 8, again.

Romans 8 starts off with a conditional statement:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Half of verse one is frequently quoted, absent the qualifier - that it’s those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit who are in Christ Jesus and have no condemnation.

Paul warns us in Romans 8, that if we as believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die (spiritually) - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is - DEATH - but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is - ENMITY- against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


And Romans 8:6 is talking about spiritual death, not physical death, as proven by the prodigal son, who died spiritually while he was out in the world sinning:


In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who *were dead* in *trespasses and sins*


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.


So Romans 8:6 contains a warning to the brethren not to live carnally, after the flesh, or they will die spiritually, as the prodigal Son did.

And back to Verse 8:7 of Romans, which warns us that believers having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


This agrees: James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY, and the verse that follows proves the Jas 4:4 warning above, is to believers, not the unsaved:


1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

1Th 4:5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

1Th 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his BROTHER in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly WARNED you.

1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.


Our sanctification is to abstain from sexual immorality, verse 3, above.


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

 

[Curtis]

This is an excellent explanation of Paul's full council so often left out. Everywhere Paul Speaks of not relying on works to save He goes on to Speak of walking in the Spirit, producing fruit, the work of the Spirit in us.... My Favorite example is how everyone was taught to memorize Ephesians 2:8-9 but they ignore verse 10, and is worth repeating here, and worth memorizing along with Verses 8-9
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

It’s sad that the majority of believers never read anything but someone’s proof texts on a given topic - this is especially true about works.


They quote Ephesians 2:8-9 about being saved apart from works, without having a clue what works Paul’s talking about, then assume any condition or requirement of a believer is a work, then declare confidently that absolutely nothing is required of us after salvation.


There was a serious controversy in Paul’s day, because many of the Jewish Christians claimed that gentile believers were still required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.


It got bad enough that all the apostles and church leaders met in Acts 15 to decide what should be done about the problem.


They decided gentile believers were not under the law of Moses.


In Paul’s writings - since he is the apostle TO the gentiles (Galatians 5:8)- he emphasizes continually that gentile believers are saved apart from works of the law of Moses.


Every time Paul mentions law, the law, works of the law, works, or works of righteousness*, he is always referring to the works of the law of Moses.

( * Deuteronomy 6:25 keeping the works of the law of Moses was their righteousness)


Therefore we indeed are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is made up of 613 statutes, commands, and laws that all have to be kept - and per Ephesians 2:8-9; we are saved by grace, through faith, and NOT by works of the law of Moses!


We don’t have to sacrifice animals, keep feast days, kosher diets, burnt offerings, or any of the works of the law of Moses - but there are works other than the works of the law of Moses - whereas James is about a completely different type of works.

 

[Addy]

Do people NOT realize that NO ONE reads LONG POSTS??? LOL

 

[David H.]

Do people NOT realize that NO ONE reads LONG POSTS??? LOL

i read long posts if they are full of the Truth of the Word of God. Truth is like that to those who are searching out for truth. That is part of the Problem these days, everything has to be reduced to a 140 characters or the average person will lose interest. This is statement of the sad state of decay of our culture in this country. Do You hunger for Truth? I would rather read one Long post by a person Speaking in the Spirit than a post with thousands of meaningless comments set to amuse the reader such as "buddy the mouse".

 

[Addy]

@BB.... It might be a good time for a BBQ at your house since things are a bit slow around here...
You can supply the steak... I will bring the brussels sprouts... LOL

Haven't heard from FROGGY in awhile... I hope all is well with him.