What is Legalism?

[Ferris Bueller]

There is a big difference between the 613 Mosaics Laws and Christ's teachings referred to as Christ's laws.

What difference is that? Christ's law is simply the law of Moses minus the laws of atonement and such that Christ doesn't need. When we believe, we become like Christ and don't need them either now that we have received the one-time for all-time atonement through Christ's sacrifice. For us, those laws are marked 'fulfilled' on our heavenly record and are satisfied to God's complete and total satisfaction. Now we live to fulfill what remains to be fulfilled in the law.....all the laws summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'. The debt of law that is never satisfied.

 

[Grailhunter]

Only if you keep the law with the express intent of trying to save yourself by the keeping of the law. There is nothing wrong, forbidden, or dangerous about keeping the law outside of trying to justify oneself in God's sight by the keeping of that law.

Ferris, go read the Law!
Beside betraying Christ and Christianity?
LOL
There is a lot that can happen if you try to keep the Mosaic Law....like committed to an insane asylum or sentenced to prison.
613 Mosaic Laws....some of them require you to kill people for certain things, some can be family members.
People keep the laws they can sell their daughters in to sex slavery.
Have multiple wives.
Divorce wives at will
And if you go to war you have to kill all that breaths and do not forget the babies.
And then there is more.
By Christian standards the Mosaic Law is despicable.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

613 Mosaic Laws....some of them require you to kill people for certain things, some can be family members.

That requirement is fulfilled in Christ. He died the deaths required by the law.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

People keep the laws they can sell their daughters in to sex slavery.

Those laws govern those people who operate in that kind of society. We don't. You don't develop a society in order to be compliant with God's laws of how to buy and sell people. You keep God's laws governing how to buy and sell people if you have that kind of society. Christians think if you're going to keep the law then you have to start doing the things that are governed by the law! Well, I'm not going to start crapping in a hole in the ground just so I can be found guiltless in regard to the law about crapping in a hole in the ground, lol! That's not how it works, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Have multiple wives.

If we lived in a society where we had multiple wives God's law tells us how to govern that practice. But, since we don't have that kind of society you need not concern yourself about them. Besides, the head Rabbi ruling at any one time over God's people interprets the law and God's people are to obey those rulings. Head Rabbi Jesus is now in charge and he reversed Moses judgement about divorce, and he has properly instructed God's people about multiple wives.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And if you go to war you have to kill all that breaths and do not forget the babies.

Again, all the literal deaths required by the law have been died by Jesus. And we now understand these laws about war, not according to the literal, but according to the spiritual truth they represented. You know, like we understand the other types and shadows of the law. We wage war with sin and the dark forces surrounding the people of God who champion those sins and attempt to rule over us and bring us into submission to them. Read Psalm 18:31-49 with that in mind.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And then there is more.
By Christian standards the Mosaic Law is despicable.

The law is holy, righteous, and just. Do you think God commanded his people to be despicable? What you should by saying is by Christian standards some things in the law are not wise for a believer in God to do, but they are holy and just. But only a fool would require the literal death of a person who sins against God while they themselves are guilty of sin. But, nonetheless, it is holy and just that sinners be put to death. I'm just smart enough not to demand the sentence for sin for someone that I myself deserve as well. God is just. It's only right that he dole out the same judgment for sin to you that you demand of someone else (that's why we are to not condemn others and to forgive). The law is not despicable just because it requires judgment for sin.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ferris, go read the Law!

Now you go read the law with all this in mind.

 

[Grailhunter]

That requirement is fulfilled in Christ. He died the deaths required by the law.

You symbolically kill people. Still the spirit of symbolically killing people...condoning such actions is despicable.
The concept is still there.
And the concept and spirit are not inline with Christ's teachings or spirit.
It makes people feel holy to say they observe the Mosaic Law. Most have not read the 613 Mosaic Laws much less know or understand them. All things fulfilled in Christ for sure but don't make me copy in all the scriptures where Paul calls the Law a ministry of death and a curse and that we are not under the law.

 

[Grailhunter]

Those laws govern those people who operate in that kind of society. We don't. You don't develop a society in order to be compliant with God's laws of how to buy and sell people. You keep God's laws governing how to buy and sell people if you have that kind of society. Christians think if you're going to keep the law then you have to start doing the things that are governed by the law! Well, I'm not going to start crapping in a hole in the ground just so I can be found guiltless in regard to the law about crapping in a hole in the ground, lol! That's not how it works, lol.

So your point is....we give the Mosaic Law lip service?

 

[Grailhunter]

Again, all the literal deaths required by the law have been died by Jesus.

Find that scripture! The Law cannot change and how you follow it cannot change. Good luck on that scripture.

 

[Grailhunter]

The law is holy, righteous, and just. Do you think God commanded his people to be despicable?

Ok then sell you daughter or grand daughter as a sex slave and see what the people in church think of you. Despicable.
I said by Christian standards....Now if you want to talk about why God did that in the Old Testament that would be interesting.
Things like when a woman gave birth she would have to offer a sin offering and if the baby was a girl she had to double the sin offering.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, we do have that command. The difference now being in how it gets fulfilled. Same for other laws. For example, laws of sacrifice. When we believe in Christ we are fulfilling the lawful requirement for sacrifice for sin, not casting it away and trampling it underfoot as most in the church believe. When we believe we are fulfilling the lawful requirement for entering into Sabbath rest, not casting it away. So, since these lawful requirements are marked 'fulfilled' on our heavenly account and satisfied to God's complete satisfaction there is no need to continue to literally do them according to Moses. There is no reason to seek to do through the literal law of Moses what has already been done for us by Christ through our faith.

so what Day is it and where do you get you revidence? I know we have entered in to Sabbath rest as it says in Hebrews, but the church has no specific day Like Israel did. We are simply told not to forsake the assembling oof ourselves together.

Israel did not conduct services on Sabbath until after the return from the Babylonian Exile.

 

[farouk]

It is unhealthy, but that's not legalism.

@Ferris Bueller Well I would dissent because a culture of church tradition which is not actually doctrinally Biblical - but is presented as if it were - can be legalistic...

 

[farouk]

Only if you keep the law with the express intent of trying to save yourself by the keeping of the law. There is nothing wrong, forbidden, or dangerous about keeping the law outside of trying to justify oneself in God's sight by the keeping of that law.

...But it's faith in Christ (the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 has perfectly fulfilled by Him) rather than law-keeping that is essence of the believer's walk rather than law-keeping. Hebrews 7.12 says the law was changed; and Hebrews 7.19 shows that what we now have is better than the law.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

so what Day is it and where do you get you revidence?

It's not a day of the week. The Sabbath rest we enter into is Christ. He is the rest we enter into from the task master of sin and our evil works. The Mosaic requirement was a foreshadow of that. Now that the reality that cast the foreshadow is here we can set the foreshadow aside as unneeded and obsolete and observe the reality. We don't break or cast down the Mosaic requirement for Sabbath rest. We just don't need it anymore. We don't have to draw near to God through Moses' Sabbath rest anymore now that we have already been brought near to God, perfectly and forever, through Christ. And so we are not found in violation of Moses' lawful requirement for Sabbath rest. Our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31).

 

[Brakelite]

The last couple of posts reveal the same theme when any Christian starts talking about God's laws. The theme of antagonism against the weekly Sabbath. It always surprises me how brave you folk are, criticizing and denigrating something that belongs to God. I am surprised you aren't even slightly more circumspect in taking a position against what God Himself calls, My holy day.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

@Ferris Bueller Well I would dissent because a culture of church tradition which is not actually doctrinally Biblical - but is presented as if it were - can be legalistic...

Church tradition in and of itself is not what defines legalism. Trying to be justified by the works of church traditions is.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The last couple of posts reveal the same theme when any Christian starts talking about God's laws. The theme of antagonism against the weekly Sabbath. It always surprises me how brave you folk are, criticizing and denigrating something that belongs to God. I am surprised you aren't even slightly more circumspect in taking a position against what God Himself calls, My holy day.

I'm actually of the opinion that if you are going to observe a literal Sabbath day (no foul in that) you should do it on the day of the week God prescribed that you do it on.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 has perfectly fulfilled by Him

Yes, Christ kept the law perfectly, and in so doing showed himself to be the righteous Son of God. But that doesn't relieve us from the obligation to obey God. The debt of law summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' is never fully paid. It is a continuing obligation for the believer. Not a continuing obligation towards being made righteous (that only happens through faith in Christ's sacrifice). But a continuing obligation to walk in obedience to God.