Sola Scriptura

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Brakelite

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It is inaccurate to say that sola scriptura is the defining benchmark for heresy because there are so many interpretations of the scriptures.
There is an answer to this. It is true there are numerous "interpretations"... And that's the problem. The problem isn't with scripture... It's still
KJV 2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The problem is in the hearts of those reading scripture. Hearts that don't like obedience. Hearts that prefer theater and ritual to loving and serving. Hearts that are selfish, bound in habits, and love pleasure more than God. If everyone used scripture to interpret itself, then God will reveal His will according to grace and patience and love.
 
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David in NJ

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We are told that the Bereans were more noble-minded (open-minded, better disposed, fair)—but more noble-minded than whom? The Thessalonians! It is convenient for Fundamentalists to pull this passage out of context and force it to stand alone. That way their case seems convincing, but the context tells the real story. Before we look at the Bereans, let’s take a look at those they are compared to, the Thessalonians. What did the Thessalonians do that made them less noble-minded?

We find out in Acts 17:1–9: "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and for three weeks he argued with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, ‘This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.’ And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women. But the Jews were jealous, and, taking some wicked fellows of the rabble, they gathered a crowd, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring them out to the people. And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brethren before the city authorities, crying, ‘These men who have turned the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has received them, and they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.’ And the people and the city authorities were disturbed when they heard this. And when they had taken security from Jason and the rest, they let them go."

The Thessalonians rejected Paul and his message, and, after denouncing him, they became jealous that others believed. They treated Paul with contempt and violence, throwing him ignominiously out of town. Why? "For three weeks he [Paul] reasoned with them from the Scriptures" in the synagogue, as was his custom. They did not revile Paul the first week or the second; rather, they listened and discussed. But ultimately they rejected what he had to say. They compared Paul’s message to the Old Testament and decided that Paul was wrong. We must remember that many were proclaiming a wide variety of new teachings, all supposedly based on the Scriptures and revelations from God. Heresies, cults, and sects were as numerous in the Roman Empire as they are today. The Jews in Thessalonica had a right to be skeptical.

Now let’s look at Luke’s comment about the noble-minded Bereans: "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men" (Acts 17:10–12).

When Protestants use this passage as a proof text for the doctrine of sola scriptura, they should realize that those in question were not Christians; they were Hellenistic Jews. There was no doctrine of sola scriptura within Jewish communities, but the Scriptures were held as sacred. Although the Jews are frequently referred to as "the people of the book," in reality they had a strong oral tradition that accompanied their Scriptures, along with an authoritative teaching authority, as represented by the "seat of Moses" in the synagogues (Matt. 23:2). The Jews had no reason to accept Paul’s teaching as "divinely inspired," since they had just met him. When new teachings sprang up that claimed to be a development of Judaism, the rabbis researched to see if they could be verified from the Torah.

If one of the two groups could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).

When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealous—and rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jason’s house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the "dogs," not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).

We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paul’s new teaching was "unbiblical."

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they "received the word with all eagerness." Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were "noble-minded" not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessalonians—with an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, "The Acts of the Apostles" in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a "tradition," it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an "extension" of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian community’s reception of Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paul’s writings as equal to the "other Scriptures," which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).

Steve Ray (WHY THE BEREANS REJECTED SOLA SCRIPTURA)

If the Bereans rejected Sola Scriptura as the foundation of Truth, then they were not Noble and the Scripture lies - but we who know Truth know the Scripture cannot lie, otherwise we would not know Truth.
 

Grailhunter

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There is an answer to this. It is true there are numerous "interpretations"... And that's the problem. The problem isn't with scripture... It's still
KJV 2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The problem is in the hearts of those reading scripture. Hearts that don't like obedience. Hearts that prefer theater and ritual to loving and serving. Hearts that are selfish, bound in habits, and love pleasure more than God. If everyone used scripture to interpret itself, then God will reveal His will according to grace and patience and love.


I mostly agree with what your saying. The problem always is...whose heart qualifies for the correct interpretation of the scriptures? How do we qualify that heart? LOL How do we qualify our own heart? Even those that believe they are lead by the Holy Spirit and grace get different messages...that is why we have so many denominations.
 
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Brakelite

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My biggest issue with the Bible only approach is that it limits God's authority to make adjustments.
The same God who knows the end from the beginning inspired the prophets and the writers of the books in scripture to encompass all ages and all circumstances. The end of slavery and the acceptance of marijuana, the social aversion to polygamy and the two party political paradigm of modern government didn't take Him by surprise. If one, as @An Apologetic Sheepdog said above, is willing to submit his life to God's will, he will find in the scriptures all the answers he needs for faith and practise without having to "interpret" anything in order to reconcile what he perceives as contradiction or inconsistency.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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I mostly agree with what your saying. The problem always is...whose heart qualifies for the correct interpretation of the scriptures? How do we qualify that heart? LOL How do we qualify our own heart? Even those that believe they are lead by the Holy Spirit and grace get different messages...that is why we have so many denominations.

That's a very fair question and here is the answer.

Contrary to what many pontificate- scripture ( defined as the original inspired writings) was written in the plain language of the day and in a manner the contemporaries understood. (even the stuff that was pointed out as hidden or sealed was understood to be that way)

From that beginning to now we have 2 mountains to climb

First is the translational matrix errors that crept in from the copying the "original" writings and then properly converting them across languages, cultures and other changes.

Second is the mindset, worldview or agenda of the one doing the reading ( in short- reading what it says for what it means rather than reading to see what you want then cherry picking)

Common to both is the good old error factor.

What we have is the "Spirit of Truth" to get us over those mountains.

But in order for that Spirit not to be "quenched"- we must be honest in our search, diligent in our methods and humble ( willing to submit our thoughts to what God actually wrote anytime there is a conflict)

Failing to do that is the "root cause" of why we have the translational errors and mixed denominations we have today.

God is one, His Word is one, the proper meaning of what he says is one- the only question remaining is do we have the proper meaning or not.

And that is a simple yes or no.

So at the end of the da, since God cannot and never fails ( His Spirit of Truth), the only thing prohibiting us from seeking and finding the actual truth is our own inner self and our ability to surrender it for His word.
 

BreadOfLife

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Sola Scriptura is not a degrading term for Catholics. It is a term Catholics degrade and demonize.

I don't know the source of the term nor the particular details of its' beginning', but my understanding is that it came from Martin Luther in his efforts to reform the 'church' from it's worst errors and abuses by relying solely upon Scripture for all doctrine of Christ.

The papacy then tried to have him killed as an heretic, because this ran counter to the Catholic Religion that relied on traditions for doctrine of Christ, that were not proven to be of Christ, because the Scriptures of the apostles did not agree with them as such.

Sola Scriptura to me is:
1. Only that which is written as Scripture or is plainly proven by Scripture, is to be taught for truth of God and doctrine of Christ.

2. Sola Scriptura does not shun oral and written traditions that are not exactly written in Scripture: it does not advocate reading the Bible only and nothing else. It only states that if there is anything oral or written, it must be proven by Scripture to be believed as truth of God in worship, religion, doctrine, law, commandment, etc...

3. Even as there be many voices, and each voice has it's own significance (1 Cor 14:10), only that voice approved of Scripture truly proceeds from the mouth of God.

All other voices may have merit, but without Scriptural proof, they are not to be believed as truth of God, much less obeyed as commandment of God.
Besides being one of the most DISHONEST posters on this forum - you're also ne of the most ignorant about Church history and ALL things Catholic.

As I educated you on another thread - the term, "Sola Scriptura" is NOT a Catholic phrase - but a PROTESTANT one. It is one of the "5 Solas" of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century - and the most Scripturally-bankrupt of the five . . .

Although Scripture IS Authoritative - NOWHERE does Scripture make the claim that it is our "SOLE" Authority, Einstein - and you have YET to show me where Scripture makes this claim about itself.

CAN
you do that?
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Although Scripture IS Authoritative - NOWHERE does Scripture make the claim that it is our "SOLE" Authority, Einstein - and you have YET to show me where Scripture makes this claim about itself.

Where is it written that there is another equal authority? ( then who is this alleged authority)
 

Mungo

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I wasn't going to post in this thread any more. But it's time to throw in a wobbly and watch.

These claims about the authority of scripture are bogus.
Scripture has no authority. As BOL said it is authoritative - meaning true and reliable.
But authority, properly understood, lies with people not words.
Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.(Mt 28:18)
Jesus is the source of authority for us not a book.
What we need to look at is to whom did Jesus give any authority.

Are you under Jesus' authority?
If so how did you get there?
Not by reading the Bible.
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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I wasn't going to post in this thread any more. But it's time to throw in a wobbly and watch.

With the beating your positions and waffling have taken, I certainly see why. The farce is strong, no doubt.

These claims about the authority of scripture are bogus.
Scripture has no authority. As BOL said it is authoritative - meaning true and reliable.
But authority, properly understood, lies with people not words.

Give us this definition of "authority" you are playing word games with and exactly what "people" have it.

Jesus is the source of authority for us not a book.

Jesus is the "authority" and the written word is his word. You are arguing nonsense. All in a vain attempt to make the RCC something it isn't so you can feel important and smart.

What we need to look at is to whom did Jesus give any authority.

Who specifically and what authority?
 

Brakelite

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I wasn't going to post in this thread any more. But it's time to throw in a wobbly and watch.

These claims about the authority of scripture are bogus.
Scripture has no authority. As BOL said it is authoritative - meaning true and reliable.
But authority, properly understood, lies with people not words.
Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.(Mt 28:18)
Jesus is the source of authority for us not a book.
What we need to look at is to whom did Jesus give any authority.

Are you under Jesus' authority?
If so how did you get there?
Not by reading the Bible.
I agree with you. But how is authority exercised? Is it not through the word of that authority? Either written, or spoken. The Bible is the written inspired word of God... His word is the expression of His authority. Just as the constitution and the bill of rights is the written expression of the authority "we the people" invested in the founding fathers of your nation.
 

Accurist

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Actually that has been done before, numerous times, even in this very thread personally in response to Mungo...

Cite book, chapter, and verse number where Sola Scriptura is taught by Scripture, please.
 

Brakelite

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Cite the book, chapter, and verse number where Sola Scriptura is taught by Scripture, please.
Isaiah 8:20 informs us that scripture is our safeguard against error and the delusions of man. Whether you choose to call that Sola scriptura, or something else is entirely up to you. I see scripture as the final arbiter of faith and practice. With good reason, for I haven't witnessed, read, or heard of anyone, or institution, claiming "authority", that hasn't abused it Is that Sola scriptura? Pretty much I guess.
 

Mungo

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I agree with you. But how is authority exercised? Is it not through the word of that authority? Either written, or spoken. The Bible is the written inspired word of God... His word is the expression of His authority. Just as the constitution and the bill of rights is the written expression of the authority "we the people" invested in the founding fathers of your nation.

Having authority and expressing that authority in writing are different things.
If someone "A" has authority and gives a written command to someone "B" under his authority then that person "B" is obliged to act according to that command. That command may in turn give the person "B" the authority necessary to carry out that command but the authority is owned by the person "B" not the written word.

From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary

authoritative
n adjective
1 reliable because true or accurate: an authoritative source.

Authoritative is about information being true and reliable. The Bible is authoritative meaning it is true and reliable; it comes from an authoritative source.

authority

n noun (plural authorities)
1 the power or right to give orders and enforce obedience.

Authority is about the power and legitimacy to act. Authority lies with persons and is given from a person who has it to the one they give it to.

Here are some Biblical examples of authority

Mt 8:5-9
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.

The centurion’s faith in Jesus stems from his understanding of whose authority Jesus is under. He makes the point that he himself is under authority, and it is from that authority that his own authority flows so that his commands are obeyed. So he recognizes that Jesus is under the authority of God, and with that authority his commands will be obeyed (only speak the word, and my servant will be healed).

Jesus was operating under the authority of the Father. This is why he says:
“Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. (Jn 5:19)
And
“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.(Jn 8:28)

Here is another example:
We find Jesus giving authority to the twelve when he sent them out in pairs:
Then Jesus called the twelve apostles together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. (Lk 9:1-2)

Later he does the same with the 70 disciples:
After this the Lord appointed seventy others and sent them on ahead of him in pairs to every town and place where he himself intended to go….. Whenever you enter a town and its people welcome you, eat what is set before you; cure the sick who are there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ (Lk 10:1&9).

When they return they say “Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us!”, so presumably he also gave the authority over demons just as he had with the twelve.

Here is a Biblical example of authoritative.
Lk 1:1-4
Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

Luke is explaining the source of his material so that Theophilus may know it comes from an authoritative source and is true and accurate - authoritative.
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Having authority and expressing that authority in writing are different things.
If someone "A" has authority and gives a written command to someone "B" under his authority then that person "B" is obliged to act according to that command. That command may in turn give the person "B" the authority necessary to carry out that command but the authority is owned by the person "B" not the written word.

From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary

authoritative
n adjective
1 reliable because true or accurate: an authoritative source.

Authoritative is about information being true and reliable. The Bible is authoritative meaning it is true and reliable; it comes from an authoritative source.

authority

n noun (plural authorities)
1 the power or right to give orders and enforce obedience.

Authority is about the power and legitimacy to act. Authority lies with persons and is given from a person who has it to the one they give it to.

Here are some Biblical examples of authority

Mt 8:5-9
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.

The centurion’s faith in Jesus stems from his understanding of whose authority Jesus is under. He makes the point that he himself is under authority, and it is from that authority that his own authority flows so that his commands are obeyed. So he recognizes that Jesus is under the authority of God, and with that authority his commands will be obeyed (only speak the word, and my servant will be healed).

<SNIP>

Luke is explaining the source of his material so that Theophilus may know it comes from an authoritative source and is true and accurate - authoritative.

All of that rambling to say absolutely nothing pertinent or of value
 

Illuminator

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I agree with you. But how is authority exercised? Is it not through the word of that authority? Either written, or spoken. The Bible is the written inspired word of God... His word is the expression of His authority. Just as the constitution and the bill of rights is the written expression of the authority "we the people" invested in the founding fathers of your nation.
Yes, but it takes a Supreme Court to say what the Constitution means.
 
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Brakelite

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Having authority and expressing that authority in writing are different things.
If someone "A" has authority and gives a written command to someone "B" under his authority then that person "B" is obliged to act according to that command. That command may in turn give the person "B" the authority necessary to carry out that command but the authority is owned by the person "B" not the written word.

From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary

authoritative
n adjective
1 reliable because true or accurate: an authoritative source.

Authoritative is about information being true and reliable. The Bible is authoritative meaning it is true and reliable; it comes from an authoritative source.

authority

n noun (plural authorities)
1 the power or right to give orders and enforce obedience.

Authority is about the power and legitimacy to act. Authority lies with persons and is given from a person who has it to the one they give it to.

Here are some Biblical examples of authority

Mt 8:5-9
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.

The centurion’s faith in Jesus stems from his understanding of whose authority Jesus is under. He makes the point that he himself is under authority, and it is from that authority that his own authority flows so that his commands are obeyed. So he recognizes that Jesus is under the authority of God, and with that authority his commands will be obeyed (only speak the word, and my servant will be healed).

Jesus was operating under the authority of the Father. This is why he says:
“Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. (Jn 5:19)
And
“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.(Jn 8:28)

Here is another example:
We find Jesus giving authority to the twelve when he sent them out in pairs:
Then Jesus called the twelve apostles together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. (Lk 9:1-2)

Later he does the same with the 70 disciples:
After this the Lord appointed seventy others and sent them on ahead of him in pairs to every town and place where he himself intended to go….. Whenever you enter a town and its people welcome you, eat what is set before you; cure the sick who are there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ (Lk 10:1&9).

When they return they say “Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us!”, so presumably he also gave the authority over demons just as he had with the twelve.

Here is a Biblical example of authoritative.
Lk 1:1-4
Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

Luke is explaining the source of his material so that Theophilus may know it comes from an authoritative source and is true and accurate - authoritative.
I get that. It isn't all that difficult to understand. What I don't understand is the claimed authority of Catholicism to undermine the authority of the God you profess had the authority to command and expect obedience by altering that command to suit the convenience of man.
Your man B above may have received the authority to obey the command of A, but he wasn't given the authority to change that command. So I reject the authority of B, and cleave to A. B has proved himself unreliable and not authoritative at all.
 
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