Sola Scriptura

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Grailhunter

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WOW you said a lot of errors - Here is just one : "The Mosaic Law failed"

No need to go any further here.......

2nd Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Salvation in the Old Testament meant saving lives....not spiritual lives. Which is one the reasons that Yahweh never offered heaven as a reward and why Paul said that it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4 and Luke said that “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Act 4:12
 

robert derrick

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We are told that the Bereans were more noble-minded (open-minded, better disposed, fair)—but more noble-minded than whom? The Thessalonians!
Steve Ray (WHY THE BEREANS REJECTED SOLA SCRIPTURA)
A noble effort. I applaud it, because I have never heard it. I definitely take back my charge of you not being serious.

However, you have erred in Sola Scriptura's first rule of rightly dividing the Word of truth, by intermixing what you suppose and want to think with what is actually written.

1. They compared Paul’s message to the Old Testament and decided that Paul was wrong.

Not written. This is an assumption based on what was later written about the Bereans. No Scripture says the unbelieving Jews of Thessaly ever did so.

For three weeks he [Paul] reasoned with them from the Scriptures" in the synagogue, as was his custom. They did not revile Paul the first week or the second; rather, they listened and discussed. But ultimately they rejected what he had to say.

The only one Scripture says reasoned and judged out of the Scriptures is Paul. Nothing about the Thessalonian unbelieving Jews doing so.

They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah.


Not written. Another projection of the noble Bereans upon the ignobly unbelieving Jews of Thessalonica.

they listened and discussed.


No doubt. Even as them that Paul finally stopped bothering to preach to:

And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Arguing with themselves among themselves without so much as a glance at Scripture.

2. The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God.

Not written. And a false conclusion being based on what is not written.

The Berean's were of a ready mind to hear Paul, and willing to believe what he said as Word of God, but they did not do so until proving his words from Scripture as being so: Open minded? yes. Believe without Scripture? No.

Sola Scriptura is willing to hear and to trust the honesty of the speaker, but verifying by Scripture is necessary for faith in what they hear.

And so a sloppy and foolish manner of hearing: immediately believe what is spoken, which is then put upon the Bereans in order to make a conclusion about them: not being Sola Scriptura. Which is the exact opposite of what Scripture commended them for: Willingness to hear, but then proving by Scripture whether to believe and accept as from God.

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians

How do Bereans that did search the Scriptures, do so no less than Thessalonians that Scripture never says they searched??

The Jews in Thessalonica had a right to be skeptical
.

As did the Bereans and as do we all, But when we go to Scripture for proof and see it plainly written, then our skepticism either becomes belief or unbelief based on Scriptural proof: Sola Scriptura.

They were noble-minded precisely because they "received the word with all eagerness." Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded.

The beginning of Sola Scriptura is willingness to give a fair hearing. The conclusion of Sola Scriptura is to judge the hearing by Scripture as true of God or not.

Neither of which the unbelieving Thessalonian Jews did: If the noble mindedness is willingness to hear, then that was better than the Thessalonian unbelievers, who must have not. And neither does Scripture say they looked to Scripture to reject what Paul said from Scripture, being unwilling to hear him honestly in the first place.

4. There was no doctrine of sola scriptura within Jewish communities, but the Scriptures were held as sacred

And that is why all Jewish communities were concluded in unbelief at the cross. And why all nona-Sola Scriptura communities are concluded in corrupted faith by non scriptural traditions and commandments of men.

5. Although the Jews are frequently referred to as "the people of the book," in reality they had a strong oral tradition that accompanied their Scriptures, along with an authoritative teaching authority, as represented by the "seat of Moses" in the synagogues.

Which things they taught to others, but did not do themselves, because they taught what was not written in Scripture by Moses and the prophets. What was written was easy to read and to do, but what was not written was made up and made heavy burdens upon men to bear. (Matthew 23:4). And them that preached it and did not do it themselves, likewise did not lift one finger to help others do it.

They were supposed to be the people of the book of the law of Moses, but in reality they had a strong oral tradition, that they first made to 'accompany' Scripture, and then they held above Scripture, which was proven when they had Christ crucified for condemning their idolized oral traditions: He did so repeatedly by repeating Scripture to judge them.

God never said in Scripture to have oral traditions to 'accompany' His Word, but rather He only commanded His people to read the Scriptures of the law and teach them:

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. (Num 16)

Nothing about 'accompanying' oral traditions.

These 'strong' oral traditions and teachings of Rabbi 'authority', were those that Jesus and Paul both condemned as traditions and commandments of men.

The Thessalonian unbelieving Jews did as their Judean counterparts: they judged both Jesus' and Paul's words of Scripture, by their own traditions, commandments, and law, which they then used to judge both Jesus and Paul as blasphemers to be crucified and stoned.

6. If one of the two groups could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching.

And so it is the Sola Scriptura people that reject God's Word, because they don't receive anything that is not written in nor supported by God's Word. They are the heretics that will not accept as God's authority whatever they are told to them according to scriptureless but 'blessed' oral traditions.

Apollos was mighty in the Scriptures of God, not strong in the traditions of men.

8. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective.

Scripture never says they searched the Scriptures, nor rejected Paul's words from Scripture, based on their 'scriptural perspective'.

Their unbelief was because they did not want to believe the Scriptures that Paul reasoned from, because Jesus as Christ did not conform to their strong traditions.

They were completely justified from their traditionally-taught perspective to reject the Scriptures given by Jesus of Himself, and those given by Stephen, Paul, Apollos, etc...pertaining to Jesus as the Christ.

This is the companionship of unbelieving Jews in the Old Covenant and unbelieving Christians in the New Testament that reject sola Scriptura:

Because they love to hold to their own traditions more than Scripture, they are not 'completely unjustified' in rejecting Scripture only for things of God.

9. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the "dogs," not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God.

Who are these protestants to decide what is of God by Scripture only, and not accept additional revelation of traditions? Dogs not chosen to be custodians of oracles of man's religion.

One man's treasured traditions are another man's rejected trash, and one man's heretical dogs are God's scriptural treasure in earthen vessels.
 
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dev553344

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That’s a wonderful point in your spiritual journey. My advice? Pray about it and one thing more.

Focus less on doctrine, which is intellectual. Focus more on discerning the Spirit. Where do you most feel the presence of God?

I go to a Spirit led church. A friend of mine out of town went to a RCC for years. For reasons I’m not sure, he started going to another church that he raved about. One day I went there also.

It was a wonderful Spirit led church. I’m so glad he found such a place near him.

Best of luck.
Yes, thanks for the advice. That is where I am at also. I recognize that I would rather be in a spirit led church. I'm still looking around for who has the best spirit in their church. Anyone can quote scripture. But where does Jesus testify thru his holy spirit? That is where I would like to worship.
 
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robert derrick

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Yes, thanks for the advice. That is where I am at also. I recognize that I would rather be in a spirit led church. I'm still looking around for who has the best spirit in their church. Anyone can quote scripture. But where does Jesus testify thru his holy spirit? That is where I would like to worship.
You can begin with them that preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Naming His name, not just talking around about 'God'.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Spirit of God draws to Jesus, leads to His salvation, and guides into all truth about Jesus.

I have been places, where they talk all about everything about God, the Holy Father, the mighty One of Israel, etc...and never once mention the name of Jesus. Except maybe in some concluding prayer of incantation.

That is a ditch of dry bones indeed.
 
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dev553344

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You can begin with them that preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Naming His name, not just talking around about 'God'.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Spirit of God draws to Jesus, leads to His salvation, and guides into all truth about Jesus.

I have been places, where they talk all about everything about God, the Holy Father, the mighty One of Israel, etc...and never once mention the name of Jesus. Except maybe in some concluding prayer of incantation.

That is a ditch of dry bones indeed.
Yes I was in a church for a while that didn't talk much about Jesus. They called me to teach, and when I did I focused on teaching about Jesus. I think I might have even offended some people in there. Not too sure.
 

robert derrick

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Although the Jews are frequently referred to as "the people of the book," in reality they had a strong oral tradition that accompanied their Scriptures..

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus."

Apollos was mighty in the Scriptures of God, not strong in the 'accompanying' traditions of men.

The Jews that relied on their strong traditions rather than the Book of the law of Moses, are the ones that had Jesus Crucified.

Them that reject Sola Scriptura cannot be called 'the people of the book'. Rather they should be called 'the people of the books'.
 

Curtis

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You have given not a single scripture or scripture reference to anything.
Your challenge is to prove Sola Scriptura from scripture not from your opinions.
If you cannot provide any scripture than please don't waste my time.

Weren’t you in Mel Brooks comedy western Blazing Saddles?

Jesus said things like, search the scriptures, and you do err, not knowing the scriptures, and liked to say ‘it is written’, but never once said ‘oral tradition says’.

We are told to study the scriptures and rightly divide the word of truth 2 Timothy 2:16

We are told that all scripture is useful for doctrines, for reproof of wrong doctrines, and for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

We are told the Bereans were noble for not believing the apostle Paul’s preaching, until they searched the scriptures to see if it be so. Acts 17:11

Shalom
 

Accurist

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Sola Scriptura to me is:
1. Only that which is written as Scripture or is plainly proven by Scripture, is to be taught for truth of God and doctrine of Christ.

According to this, you wouldn't be adhering to the doctrine Sola Scriptura unless it was taught by Scripture. Therefore, cite book, chapter, and verse number, please.
 

Mungo

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I already proved it. Others already proved it. You are just not accepting the proof. Said differently, what proof would you accept?

If you have then point me to it because I haven't seen it.

The proof I would accept is what I have been asking for all along - scripture.
 

Mungo

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Weren’t you in Mel Brooks comedy western Blazing Saddles?

Jesus said things like, search the scriptures, and you do err, not knowing the scriptures, and liked to say ‘it is written’, but never once said ‘oral tradition says’.

We are told to study the scriptures and rightly divide the word of truth 2 Timothy 2:16

We are told that all scripture is useful for doctrines, for reproof of wrong doctrines, and for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

We are told the Bereans were noble for not believing the apostle Paul’s preaching, until they searched the scriptures to see if it be so. Acts 17:11

Shalom
none of that proves scripture alone.
Yes, scripture useful.
Yes Jesus quoted from scripture. But as I pointed out in post #110
Jesus also quoted from Jewish tradition and non scripture.
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you.” (Mt 23:1-3). The scribes and Pharisees had a valid and binding teaching authority passed down from Moses. This is not in scripture but in the Mishnah (originally an oral tradition).

In that post I also gave examples of the apostles quoting from oral and written tradition.
 

Mungo

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According to this, you wouldn't be adhering to the doctrine Sola Scriptura unless it was taught by Scripture. Therefore, cite book, chapter, and verse number, please.

Good luck with that. I've been trying to get that out of them from the start.
 

Brakelite

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According to this, you wouldn't be adhering to the doctrine Sola Scriptura unless it was taught by Scripture. Therefore, cite book, chapter, and verse number, please.
Actually that has been done before, numerous times, even in this very thread personally in response to Mungo, which he chose to ignore (although I suspect he has me "on ignore" which doesn't help in communication but it is what it is) and Catholics continue to believe their traditions are more important than scripture regardless the evidence offered.
Now I do agree that many Protestants who say they believe in sola scriptura, don't in fact order their Christian lives in complete accord with Sola scriptura, but we are talking about sapiens right, and none of us get everything right, and some of us are a bit slow on learning. But the ideal of having the scriptures as the final arbiter in faith and practice is always going to be infinitely better compared to any alternative that I can think of, and certainly better than what has transpired in the past.
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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In that post I also gave examples of the apostles quoting from oral and written tradition.

Once again, your regeneration cycle didn't fully engage.

There is nothing wrong with oral and written "tradition" and many are based on authority. That's a totally separate thing and has no bearing on the authority God Himself placed on His word.

You are just trying to create a red herring/straw point so you can claim a win for the RCC and have failed miserably.
 

Mungo

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Actually that has been done before, numerous times, even in this very thread personally in response to Mungo, which he chose to ignore (although I suspect he has me "on ignore" which doesn't help in communication but it is what it is)
I do not have you on ignore you but I'm tempted.

You gave one scripture reference in post #22 (Is 8:20) which I refuted in post #26. You made no reply to that but you
repeated the same reference quote in post #127 which shows you are actually ignoring me.
 

Brakelite

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The law and testimony referred to in Is 8:20 is the law and testimony given to Isaiah in verse 16
"Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples."
Which itself refers back to verse 1-2
Moreover the Lord said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz.
And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.
It doesn't support Sola Scriptura in any way.
My sincere apologies. I do remember reading this, and was going to respond but got distracted and forgot all about it. Sorry for my aspersions.
I have no issues with certain traditions. But when they contradict scripture, or contradict your behavior or briefs, that is where the ideal of scripture being the final arbiter of faith and practise exercises it's authority. In that sense Sola scriptura is a worthy ideal. But no-one I know reads only scripture as a means of learning, growing, being given understanding. We all have teachers. Just as the Bereans did in Paul. But when your teacher comes along with something new, particularly something that starts pricking at long held pet habits and beliefs, one needs a certain, unchanging and inspired rock upon which to build his life. That's why the Bereans "searched the scriptures to see if these things were so".
 

Grailhunter

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Actually that has been done before, numerous times, even in this very thread personally in response to Mungo, which he chose to ignore (although I suspect he has me "on ignore" which doesn't help in communication but it is what it is) and Catholics continue to believe their traditions are more important than scripture regardless the evidence offered.
Now I do agree that many Protestants who say they believe in sola scriptura, don't in fact order their Christian lives in complete accord with Sola scriptura, but we are talking about sapiens right, and none of us get everything right, and some of us are a bit slow on learning. But the ideal of having the scriptures as the final arbiter in faith and practice is always going to be infinitely better compared to any alternative that I can think of, and certainly better than what has transpired in the past.

I like the post.
To some degree heresy is a matter of perspective.
The Catholics and Protestants considered each other heretical. Maybe still do?
The Puritans...LOL...did not come over to the new world to practice religious freedom, they came over to practice their religion freely. The did not get along with others well.
In the Colonies, Roger Williams is credited for promoting the concept of religious freedom.
In our country the most heretical group is democrats....LOL
The forum sets boundaries, which is a good thing.

It is inaccurate to say that sola scriptura is the defining benchmark for heresy because there are so many interpretations of the scriptures. Even the advocates for sola scriptura will usually add beliefs that are not in the Bible and or ignore or explain away certain scriptures...which in some cases are for the best.

I agree that the Bible is the foundation for Christianity. My biggest issue with the Bible only approach is that it limits God's authority to make adjustments. Fundamentalism takes authority over God and it almost makes the Bible a god. God is not allowed to make corrections or additions. 1935 years of an active God after the biblical era...Even Christ said there were things they could not bear at the time. For example attempting to stop slavery at the time would have brought in a whole new set of problems. Stating a moratorium on Polygamy at that time would have prevented the Jews with multiple wives from converting. A religious requirement for wedding ceremonies is an addition to sola scriptura. But then again, sola scriptura as a "general rule" is a good idea. A good discussion would be how should we apply sola scriptura?
 
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David in NJ

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SOLA SCRIPTURA - What religious men fear, where idols are crushed to pieces and where God is Glorified.
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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I agree that the Bible is the foundation for Christianity. My biggest issue with the Bible only approach is that it limits God's authority to make adjustments.

Since God is the same from the beginning, Omnipotent and laid down the law- what "adjustments" do you feel He would need to make?

The onus is on us to submit to his will- not for him to bend to ours.

Fundamentalism takes authority over God and it almost makes the Bible a god.

No ( by the lexicon definition of fundamentalism- not the misuse of it)- what generic fundamentalism does is forms a barrier from people making things up as they go ( a "living" Constitution)

God is not allowed to make corrections or additions.

Who is prohibiting God? What corrections to perfection would he make?
 
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