In Jesus name or the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit?

[the stranger]

:)


I thought before I put any scripture down, I would share my own story.

I have been saved for now thirteen years, and this does not count the off and on times I considered myself saved as a younger kid. I was not baptized until three or four years ago. Now some will say, than you were never saved until your baptism.

Here are some questions for you:

(1) What does Jesus saving us do? Give us a new heart for Him. Would any of us want to be baptized in Jesus name if we did not receive a new heart from Him? Would you have been baptized?

(2) When I was baptized, I felt good. I felt cleansed and forgiven ten years earlier, but I felt good that I was obeying the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Have you ever been prompted by the Holy Spirit for other things and commands? Have you ever not listened? Are we in danger of hell simply because we do not always listen to the prompting of the Holy Spirit and can never obey all of the NT commands, which by the way, are summed up as loving our Lord with all our hearts and mind, and loving our neighbor as our selves?

(3) Why did Jesus die on the cross? Was it to again bring us back under bondage of law requirements? If so, why did He come at all? No one could ever obey the OT laws, and likewise, no one could completely follow through with living a life fully by what the NT teaches, as much as we try to be more like Christ. Is it not by the blood of Jesus we are saved? Is there anything you could of done yourself to be saved?


On an ending note for this part, as Christians, we follow and live by the Holy Spirit, right? The Holy Spirit guides us and shows us how to live our life for Christ. Did we receive this Holy Spirit before or after we were baptized?




Now I noticed one big problem seemed to be only one clear scripture was given, so let me see if I can help.


Titus 3:5-7 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]5[/sup]He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

[sup]6[/sup]Which He poured out [so] richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.

[sup]7[/sup][And He did it in order] that we might be justified by His grace (by His favor, wholly undeserved), [that we might be acknowledged and counted as conformed to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action], and that we might become heirs of eternal life according to [our] hope.




(a) We are not saved for things in which we have done

(B) We are saved by His mercy BY the cleansing and renewing of the Holy Spirit which was poured out upon us through Jesus Christ alone.

(c) He died for us so that we might be justified, not by our own actions, but by His grace alone.











Ephesians 2:8 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]8[/sup]For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([sup][a][/sup]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;





Romans 10:13 (King James Version)


[sup]13[/sup]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.





Mark 10:26-27 (King James Version)


[sup]26[/sup]And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

[sup]27[/sup]And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.





Acts 2:21 (King James Version)


[sup]21[/sup]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.





Acts 16:30-31 (King James Version)


[sup]30[/sup]And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

[sup]31[/sup]And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.





Luke 7:50 (King James Version)


[sup]50[/sup]And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.






Romans 10:9 (King James Version)


[sup]9[/sup]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.





2 Thessalonians 2:10 (Common English Bible)
[sup]10[/sup] It will happen with every sort of wicked deception of those who are heading toward destruction because they have refused to love the truth that would allow them to be saved




I think it best to end here, though there are so many more scriptures out there to give. It is clear over and over, again and again in the good book what one must do to be saved. To believe the truth, Jesus Christ crucified, and call upon Him to be saved.

I want to put just one more verse down as it kind of spoke to me.




Isaiah 64:5 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]5[/sup]You help all who gladly obey

and do what you want,

but sin makes you angry.

Only by your help

can we ever be saved.





My heart is not to fight, but through the Holy Spirit, in which we live by when we call on the name of Jesus and are saved, I know at any time through those first ten years of being saved, I would of went to heaven, and to this, there is no doubt at all. Living at total peace with the Holy Spirit is what it is all about.


I also want to share this link, as it just tells in brief the basics of salvation in a nice easy to read and understand layout, and as to what is really needed to be done to be saved.

http://www.eternalchoice.com/salvation.php





God bless everyone and take care. :)

 

[the stranger]

I just wanted to add one more web site. This site will hopefully clear up any confusion about the supposed baptism for salvation belief and the verses pertaining to it.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC122.html

This is a pretty good one. One should check it out.



PS If anybody wants to discuss any of the verses that they believe support their case in much more detail, please just let me know. I like details sometimes.

 

[Duckybill]

Water baptism didn't wash away my sins. The Blood of Jesus did that.

1 John 1:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Butch5]

:)


I thought before I put any scripture down, I would share my own story.

I have been saved for now thirteen years, and this does not count the off and on times I considered myself saved as a younger kid. I was not baptized until three or four years ago. Now some will say, than you were never saved until your baptism.

Here are some questions for you:

(1) What does Jesus saving us do? Give us a new heart for Him. Would any of us want to be baptized in Jesus name if we did not receive a new heart from Him? Would you have been baptized?

(2) When I was baptized, I felt good. I felt cleansed and forgiven ten years earlier, but I felt good that I was obeying the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Have you ever been prompted by the Holy Spirit for other things and commands? Have you ever not listened? Are we in danger of hell simply because we do not always listen to the prompting of the Holy Spirit and can never obey all of the NT commands, which by the way, are summed up as loving our Lord with all our hearts and mind, and loving our neighbor as our selves?

(3) Why did Jesus die on the cross? Was it to again bring us back under bondage of law requirements? If so, why did He come at all? No one could ever obey the OT laws, and likewise, no one could completely follow through with living a life fully by what the NT teaches, as much as we try to be more like Christ. Is it not by the blood of Jesus we are saved? Is there anything you could of done yourself to be saved?


On an ending note for this part, as Christians, we follow and live by the Holy Spirit, right? The Holy Spirit guides us and shows us how to live our life for Christ. Did we receive this Holy Spirit before or after we were baptized?




Now I noticed one big problem seemed to be only one clear scripture was given, so let me see if I can help.


Titus 3:5-7 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]5[/sup]He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

[sup]6[/sup]Which He poured out [so] richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.

[sup]7[/sup][And He did it in order] that we might be justified by His grace (by His favor, wholly undeserved), [that we might be acknowledged and counted as conformed to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action], and that we might become heirs of eternal life according to [our] hope.




(a) We are not saved for things in which we have done

(B) We are saved by His mercy BY the cleansing and renewing of the Holy Spirit which was poured out upon us through Jesus Christ alone.

(c) He died for us so that we might be justified, not by our own actions, but by His grace alone.











Ephesians 2:8 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]8[/sup]For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([sup][a][/sup]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;





Romans 10:13 (King James Version)


[sup]13[/sup]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.





Mark 10:26-27 (King James Version)


[sup]26[/sup]And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

[sup]27[/sup]And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.





Acts 2:21 (King James Version)


[sup]21[/sup]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.





Acts 16:30-31 (King James Version)


[sup]30[/sup]And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

[sup]31[/sup]And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.





Luke 7:50 (King James Version)


[sup]50[/sup]And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.






Romans 10:9 (King James Version)


[sup]9[/sup]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.





2 Thessalonians 2:10 (Common English Bible)
[sup]10[/sup] It will happen with every sort of wicked deception of those who are heading toward destruction because they have refused to love the truth that would allow them to be saved




I think it best to end here, though there are so many more scriptures out there to give. It is clear over and over, again and again in the good book what one must do to be saved. To believe the truth, Jesus Christ crucified, and call upon Him to be saved.

I want to put just one more verse down as it kind of spoke to me.




Isaiah 64:5 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]5[/sup]You help all who gladly obey

and do what you want,

but sin makes you angry.

Only by your help

can we ever be saved.





My heart is not to fight, but through the Holy Spirit, in which we live by when we call on the name of Jesus and are saved, I know at any time through those first ten years of being saved, I would of went to heaven, and to this, there is no doubt at all. Living at total peace with the Holy Spirit is what it is all about.


I also want to share this link, as it just tells in brief the basics of salvation in a nice easy to read and understand layout, and as to what is really needed to be done to be saved.

http://www.eternalchoice.com/salvation.php





God bless everyone and take care. :)

Hi,

The first verse you posted shows that God uses water baptism to save people.

 

[Butch5]

So if you're spouse, parent, child, etc. was dying immediately and wanted to be saved you would tell them they must be baptized to wash away their sins?

Yes

The thief wasn't baptized, but he was saved. Yes, they were baptizing then.

Yes, they were baptizing then. However, as I've stated Jesus was alive when the thief was saved, the New Covenant had not come into effect yet. So, the thief was saved under the Old Covenant.

No.

OK, if a person can't be saved without the holy Spirit and Peter said repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit, it follows that one must be baptized.

So you obey every command in the NT?

Not perfectly, I miss the mark at times as everyone does.

So, are you saved?

I answered this. I am in a saved state, in the process of being saved. One is not ultimately saved until they are faithful to death.


Revelation 2:10 ( KJV )
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

James confirms that this promise is to believers.

James 1:12 ( KJV )
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

 

[Joshua David]

Hey Stranger,


Man it is good to hear from you again, and once again you do it with grace and wisdom. :)


Ducky,


I had a question about a comment that you made.

You didn't mention the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus said we MUST obey it to be saved. Most do not. Do you?

[font="tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"]
[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma]This isn't really about baptism per se', just about the comment. Could you tell me exactly where in the bible Jesus said we must obey what was said at the sermon on the mount to be saved? I am not necessarily saying that you are wrong, just that I was curious where you got that information, as I have always seen the Sermon on the Mount as something that doctrinally applied to the Millennium Age.[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font]
[font="tahoma]Thank you in advance for the info.[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font]
[font="tahoma]Joshua David[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font]

 

[Butch5]

Water baptism didn't wash away my sins. The Blood of Jesus did that.

1 John 1:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

OK, can you tell me exactly when it was that Jesus' blood was used to wash you? Who exactly is it that has access to His blood and where did they get? Or, is John using a metaphor?

 

[Butch5]

Hey Stranger,


Man it is good to hear from you again, and once again you do it with grace and wisdom. :)


Ducky,


I had a question about a comment that you made.





[font="tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"]
[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma]This isn't really about baptism per se', just about the comment. Could you tell me exactly where in the bible Jesus said we must obey what was said at the sermon on the mount to be saved? I am not necessarily saying that you are wrong, just that I was curious where you got that information, as I have always seen the Sermon on the Mount as something that doctrinally applied to the Millennium Age.[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font]
[font="tahoma]Thank you in advance for the info.[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font]
[font="tahoma]Joshua David[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font]

Hi Joshua,

I know your post was to Ducky but I thought I would suggest John 15.

I also was wondering why you think the Sermon on the Mount is for the millennium. Are you a dispensationalist?

 

[Duckybill]

Yes

So if they die before they are baptized they will be in Hell?

Yes, they were baptizing then. However, as I've stated Jesus was alive when the thief was saved, the New Covenant had not come into effect yet. So, the thief was saved under the Old Covenant.

Scripture please.

OK, if a person can't be saved without the holy Spirit and Peter said repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit, it follows that one must be baptized.

The emphasis is on REPENT.

Not perfectly, I miss the mark at times as everyone does.

So then, if someone repents and asks God to forgive him of his sins and believes that Jesus' Blood washes away his sins, but dies before he knows he is supposed to be baptized, does he go to Hell?

I answered this. I am in a saved state, in the process of being saved. One is not ultimately saved until they are faithful to death.

So then, you consider yourself to be saved, ok.

Revelation 2:10 ( KJV )

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

James confirms that this promise is to believers.

James 1:12 ( KJV )
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

I agree, we must endure to the end of our lives or until His return.

Ducky, I had a question about a comment that you made.[font="tahoma] [/font] [font="tahoma][size="3"]This isn't really about baptism per se', just about the comment. Could you tell me exactly where in the bible Jesus said we must obey what was said at the sermon on the mount to be saved? I am not necessarily saying that you are wrong, just that I was curious where you got that information, as I have always seen the Sermon on the Mount as something that doctrinally applied to the Millennium Age.[/size][/font][font="tahoma] [/font] [font="tahoma][size="3"]Thank you in advance for the info.[/size][/font]

Matthew 7:21-27 (NKJV)
[sup]21 [/sup]"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. [sup]22 [/sup]Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' [sup]23 [/sup]And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' [sup]24 [/sup]"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: [sup]25 [/sup]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. [sup]26 [/sup]But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: [sup]27 [/sup]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

 

[Joshua David]

Hi Joshua,

I know your post was to Ducky but I thought I would suggest John 15.

I also was wondering why you think the Sermon on the Mount is for the millennium. Are you a dispensationalist?

Yes I am, I consider myself a covenantal dispensationalist, based on my study of the different covenants of the bible. I am not saying that this view explains everything for me, but it explains more than any other view that I have come across.

When John the Baptist was declaring "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!", I believe he was referring to the Millennium Age, or the Kingdom Age. I firmly believe that if the Jews would have accepted Jesus as their messiah, then Jesus would have still died, but that when he was resurrected, he would have instituted the Kingdom age right then.

For me it explains so much.. Why does some scriptures seem to teach that you can lose your salvation and some of the seem to teach that you can't? Why did Jesus tell his disciples not to go to the gentile nations, but only to the Jewish nations at one time, and then to go to the whole world in another?

Why did Jesus respond the way he did to Mary when she asked him about the wedding party running out of wine?

Why did Jesus respond the way he did to the Samaritan woman who came to have her daughter delivered?

Plus countless others.

I believe that most (but not all ) of what are in the gospels were written to the Jewish people, to prepare them for the coming Kingdom. Most of the doctrine that I see applying to the Age of Grace, or the Church Age, came from Paul, who I believe was taught by Jesus himself when he was caught up to Heaven.

Again let me say that this view does not answer every single question that I have. I know that dispensationalism is kinda looked down on on this forum and other forums that I have been on, but like I said. It is the view that make the most sense to me and satisfactorily answers the most questions.

Joshua David

 

[Butch5]

Yes I am, I consider myself a covenantal dispensationalist, based on my study of the different covenants of the bible. I am not saying that this view explains everything for me, but it explains more than any other view that I have come across.

When John the Baptist was declaring "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!", I believe he was referring to the Millennium Age, or the Kingdom Age. I firmly believe that if the Jews would have accepted Jesus as their messiah, then Jesus would have still died, but that when he was resurrected, he would have instituted the Kingdom age right then.

For me it explains so much.. Why does some scriptures seem to teach that you can lose your salvation and some of the seem to teach that you can't? Why did Jesus tell his disciples not to go to the gentile nations, but only to the Jewish nations at one time, and then to go to the whole world in another?

Why did Jesus respond the way he did to Mary when she asked him about the wedding party running out of wine?

Why did Jesus respond the way he did to the Samaritan woman who came to have her daughter delivered?

Plus countless others.

I believe that most (but not all ) of what are in the gospels were written to the Jewish people, to prepare them for the coming Kingdom. Most of the doctrine that I see applying to the Age of Grace, or the Church Age, came from Paul, who I believe was taught by Jesus himself when he was caught up to Heaven.

Again let me say that this view does not answer every single question that I have. I know that dispensationalism is kinda looked down on on this forum and other forums that I have been on, but like I said. It is the view that make the most sense to me and satisfactorily answers the most questions.

Joshua David

Your questions are valid, and there are answers for them. .Many Christians are taught a lot of incorrect doctrine and many do not really understand the Scriptures. Don't misunderstand me, I am not trying say I have all of the answers. What I 'm getting at is that modern Christianity is way off base. I have spent several years in a study of the Ante-Nicene church. This is the early church from approximately 100 A.D. - 325 A.D. and what I have found is that much of what was taught originally has been lost and a lot of what is taught today is either not taught originally or in some cases some of what the church teaches today was actually refuted as heresy by the original church.

One thing to take into consideration is that during Jesus' earthly ministry He went to the Jews. Today the Gospel that is preached is believe in Jesus, that He died for your sins and you will be saved. That is only a part of the Gospel that Jesus and the apostles preached. If you look in the Gospels you find a few references to salvation, but, you find approximately 100 references to the kingdom of God. That is the gospel, the kingdom of God. Salvation is only a part of that. Everything about salvation and the kingdom comes through the Jews. It was the Jews that were promised the Messiah. Today we are told to believe that Jesus died for our sins. Where does Scripture tell us to believe that Jesus died for our sins? What is the foundation of the Christian faith? Most Christians would say the Cross, But, is it? What did Jesus say?

Matthew 16:15-18 ( KJV )
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mark 8:29 ( KJV )
And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.


Luke 9:20 ( KJV ) .
He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, that is the is the foundation of the church. What was the Christ? The Christ was the promised Messiah from the OT Scriptures, the one the Jews were waiting for. This confession takes us back to Psalm 2.

Psalms 2:1-12 ( KJV )
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


In the Greek Septuagint His anointed is His Christ. Peter is confessing that Jesus is this person spoken of in Psalm 2. Notice what David prophesies, 'the Lord has said to me, thou art my Son', then he says, "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession" Christ is promised the heathen and the ends of the earth for his possession. It is this that Paul refers to in Romans 8 when he says we (Believers) are joint heirs with Christ. We enter into this position of sonship through adoption and become co-heirs with Christ, through the promise made to Abraham and we inherit by faith. Back in Genesis God made a promise to Abraham. Here is the first mention of it.

Genesis 12:1-2 ( KJV )
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will show thee:
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Here God tells him again and gets a little more explicit.

Genesis 13:14-17 ( KJV )
And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

And again,

Genesis 17:4-8 ( KJV )
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

God also made this promise to Issac and Jacob. God promised Abraham that He would
1.Give him hte land for an everlasting possession.
2. Make him the faither of a great nation.
3. Make him hte father of many nations.
4. the world would be blessed through him.

Notice that God said he would give the land to Abraham forever. Well Abraham hasn't received that land yet. Notice Stephen's words in Acts.

Acts 7:2-5 ( KJV )
And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall show thee.
Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

So God promised the land to Abraham, but Abraham has not yet received it. Therefore it must be that he will inherit it in the future.But notice what God said, 'I will give it to you and your seed for an everlasting posession'. The Jews understood this to mean them, they understood that God was giving them this land. But Paul says, No. He says that when God said He would give hte land to Abaraham and his Seed, He meant Seed, singular, not seed plural.That seed was Christ.

Galatians 3:6-18 ( KJV )
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Paul Says that those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham and partake of the promises. Christ is the one who will inherit the creation Abraham was promised that land and he will receive it in the future, most likely when the millennium begins. Believers will inherit the promises as co-heir with Christ by way of the faith of Abraham.

This is just a very brief overview, but i wanted to show that this is the reason that Jesus came to the Jews, all of the prophecies and promises come through the Jews, the Gentiles are grafted into Abraham through faith, we are essentially grafted into the Jewish system. Jesus came to bring this to fruition and it pertained to the Jews.

Also, if you notice this is not the gospel you see in most Churches, but this is the Gospel that the early church heard. Jesus is the Jewish messiah promised in the Jewish Scriptures. Let me suggest a website where you can delve more deeply into this if you like. I think if you do you will find many of the answers you seek. A Study of the Ante-Nicene church is a real eye opener also.

http://www.pfrs.org/studies.html
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/articles.html
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/articles/hebrews_hope.pdf

There are also audios on the archive and home pages.

 

[the stranger]

Hi,

The first verse you posted shows that God uses water baptism to save people.

Butch5, hi to you too. If you don't mind, I would like to go a little deeper in the above verse.


Titus 3:5 (The Message)
[sup]3-8[/sup]It wasn't so long ago that we ourselves were stupid and stubborn, dupes of sin, ordered every which way by our glands, going around with a chip on our shoulder, hated and hating back. But when God, our kind and loving Savior God, stepped in, he saved us from all that. It was all his doing; we had nothing to do with it. He gave us a good bath, and we came out of it new people, washed inside and out by the Holy Spirit. Our Savior Jesus poured out new life so generously. God's gift has restored our relationship with him and given us back our lives. And there's more life to come—an eternity of life! You can count on this.





Oh wait, maybe this was version sounds a bit closer to the text.

[sup]5[/sup]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Now the first thing I would like to do is compare this verse with a couple more verses:


Hebrews 10:15-22 (New King James Version)
[sup]15[/sup] But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
[sup]16[/sup] “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[sup][a][/sup] [sup]17[/sup] then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[sup][b][/sup] [sup]18[/sup] Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Hold Fast Your Confession

[sup]19[/sup] Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, [sup]20[/sup] by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, [sup]21[/sup] and having a High Priest over the house of God, [sup]22[/sup] let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


Is this regarding physical baptism?




Ephesians 5:25-27 (New King James Version)
[sup]25[/sup] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, [sup]26[/sup] that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [sup]27[/sup] that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.







And how about this one?






John 15:3-4 (New King James Version)
[sup]3[/sup] You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. [sup]4[/sup] Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.


And this last one?




Now this next verse could be one of the best yet to support your case if it was taken out of context.


1 Peter 3:21 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]21[/sup]And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


1 Peter 3:21 (Common English Bible)
[sup]21[/sup] Baptism is like that. It saves you now—not because it removes dirt from your body but because it is the mark of a good conscience toward God. Your salvation comes through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,








The first thing we need to realize is that, as we all know, baptism was often done as a dedication to God at the same time of conversion, or accepting Christ Jesus into one's life. Thus it can occasionally be seen as a joint venture into Christianity, but as the verses I gave in the last post make clear, baptism, though commanded, is certainly not needed for salvation.



Secondly. the comparison, of course, was the saving of Noah through the great flood. Baptism represented this kind of saving, that is, a symbol that we can relate to, as so we can know for sure, just like God saved Noah out of the flood, God will save us from the pits of hell.




Thirdly, since as already discussed, baptism was done at the same time as committing one's life to Christ, Peter writes to the church to let them know, it is not the baptism that saves, but because it is representing (dedicating, committing) one's life to God Almighty and through this, by the humbleness of our hearts and wanting the love of Christ Jesus, our salvation comes, not by the physical act of baptism, but by the resurrection of Christ Jesus alone.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Matthew 3:11 (Common English Bible)
[sup]11[/sup] I baptize with water those of you who have changed your hearts and lives. The one who is coming after me is stronger than I am. I’m not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.











It is note worthy to mention, many were not baptized directly by Jesus. Instead, after He arose from the grave and went back to heaven, He baptized with the Holy Spirit (in which He sent) and with fire. Now there is no way this verse can be taken as a literal baptism.







I want to make a few comments regarding some other postings, but I will hopefully get to that in just a bit.




God bless


and thank you for your comment Butch5

Sorry JD, I almost forgot about you. LOL Thank you for your comment. I could say much more about yourself as you have always had a good way with posts. A man of true wisdom. :)

(though even we differ on just a thing or two (smile) we got the basics together like a tee.

 

[Joshua David]

Also, if you notice this is not the gospel you see in most Churches, but this is the Gospel that the early church heard. Jesus is the Jewish messiah promised in the Jewish Scriptures. Let me suggest a website where you can delve more deeply into this if you like. I think if you do you will find many of the answers you seek. A Study of the Ante-Nicene church is a real eye opener also.

Butch,

Just to let you know, I am reading through your source material very carefully. It is taking me a little while because there is so much there. So as not to disrupt this thread any further, I was wondering if you could start a discussion on a new thread so that we might discuss the differences between the covenantal dispensationalist view and the progressive dispensationalist view, and how that world view affects how we see the scriptures.

Joshua David

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, hi to you too. If you don't mind, I would like to go a little deeper in the above verse.


Titus 3:5 (The Message)
[sup]3-8[/sup]It wasn't so long ago that we ourselves were stupid and stubborn, dupes of sin, ordered every which way by our glands, going around with a chip on our shoulder, hated and hating back. But when God, our kind and loving Savior God, stepped in, he saved us from all that. It was all his doing; we had nothing to do with it. He gave us a good bath, and we came out of it new people, washed inside and out by the Holy Spirit. Our Savior Jesus poured out new life so generously. God's gift has restored our relationship with him and given us back our lives. And there's more life to come—an eternity of life! You can count on this.





Oh wait, maybe this was version sounds a bit closer to the text.

[sup]5[/sup]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Now the first thing I would like to do is compare this verse with a couple more verses:


Hebrews 10:15-22 (New King James Version)
[sup]15[/sup] But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
[sup]16[/sup] “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[sup][a][/sup] [sup]17[/sup] then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[sup][b][/sup] [sup]18[/sup] Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Hold Fast Your Confession

[sup]19[/sup] Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, [sup]20[/sup] by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, [sup]21[/sup] and having a High Priest over the house of God, [sup]22[/sup] let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


Is this regarding physical baptism?

Yes

Ephesians 5:25-27 (New King James Version)
[sup]25[/sup] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, [sup]26[/sup] that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [sup]27[/sup] that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.







And how about this one?

Yes

John 15:3-4 (New King James Version)
[sup]3[/sup] You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. [sup]4[/sup] Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

This doesn't speak of Baptism

And this last one?

Now this next verse could be one of the best yet to support your case if it was taken out of context.


1 Peter 3:21 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]21[/sup]And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


1 Peter 3:21 (Common English Bible)
[sup]21[/sup] Baptism is like that. It saves you now—not because it removes dirt from your body but because it is the mark of a good conscience toward God. Your salvation comes through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Yes, this one is speaking of water baptism also.





[

size="4"]The first thing we need to realize is that, as we all know, baptism was often done as a dedication to God at the same time of conversion, or accepting Christ Jesus into one's life. Thus it can occasionally be seen as a joint venture into Christianity, but as the verses I gave in the last post make clear, baptism, though commanded, is certainly not needed for salvation.[/size]

Actually, they didn't accept Jesus into their lives, they gave their lives to Jesus. Water baptism was not a dedication it was the method of having onec's sins remitted. And it is necessary for salvation, the Scriptures make this clear.

Secondly. the comparison, of course, was the saving of Noah through the great flood. Baptism represented this kind of saving, that is, a symbol that we can relate to, as so we can know for sure, just like God saved Noah out of the flood, God will save us from the pits of hell.

So we can know what for sure. How does a symbol make one sure?

Thirdly, since as already discussed, baptism was done at the same time as committing one's life to Christ, Peter writes to the church to let them know, it is not the baptism that saves, but because it is representing (dedicating, committing) one's life to God Almighty and through this, by the humbleness of our hearts and wanting the love of Christ Jesus, our salvation comes, not by the physical act of baptism, but by the resurrection of Christ Jesus alone.

What water baptism is, is an appeal to God for cleansing, which is done from a from a pure heart. Peter is saying that it is not the physical water that is saving the one being baptized, it is God that is saving the one who is seeking cleansing by entering into the waters of baptism. Being baptized is essentially asking God to cleanse your sins.

Butch,

Just to let you know, I am reading through your source material very carefully. It is taking me a little while because there is so much there. So as not to disrupt this thread any further, I was wondering if you could start a discussion on a new thread so that we might discuss the differences between the covenantal dispensationalist view and the progressive dispensationalist view, and how that world view affects how we see the scriptures.

Joshua David

Sure Joshua no problem.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

Just to let you know, I am reading through your source material very carefully. It is taking me a little while because there is so much there. So as not to disrupt this thread any further, I was wondering if you could start a discussion on a new thread so that we might discuss the differences between the covenantal dispensationalist view and the progressive dispensationalist view, and how that world view affects how we see the scriptures.

Joshua David

I started a new thread, it is called Chiliasm - The Kingdom of God:

 

[Joshua David]

I started a new thread, it is called Chiliasm - The Kingdom of God:

Thank you Butch.. I am going out of state for a 3 day weekend, I promise to go through everything on Monday when I get back. Thank you again for all of your info.

Joshua David

 

[Butch5]

Thank you Butch.. I am going out of state for a 3 day weekend, I promise to go through everything on Monday when I get back. Thank you again for all of your info.

Joshua David

Take your time. It took me a long time of Studying, there is a lot of info in all of this. You are welcome. There is another site where you can purchase Early Church audios and a few PDF's, they are inexpensive and explain the Early Church's understanding of the teachings of Jesus and the apostles

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/downloads.html

 

[KingJ]

One of my good friends in Christ and I got into a disagreement on baptizing in Jesus name of the Holy Trinity. I told her it is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit because Jesus said it out of his own mouth. She said in the name of Jesus since the apostles did it and since Jesus make up all 3 of the Holy Trinity.

What is it? Does it matter? Why not baptize in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and in Jesus name I baptize you?

Hello

Jesus / Jesus, Holy Spirt and God are fine, not Holy Spirit or God.

We know Jesus, we accepted Jesus, which is why we getting baptized. The Holy Spirit came to reveal and plant the seed
of Jesus in us and God revealed Himself through Jesus.

So as long as Jesus is mentioned it is all good.

When the Holy Spirit or God only are used. it can so easily sound / be pagan...which Holy Spirit? which God?

As Christians we don't know God on a personal basis except through Jesus. We don't know the Holy Spirit personaly at all as He only reveals Jesus to us.