I would disagree.. Now I do believe that we are commanded to be baptized. And I agree that we all should be baptized, just as baptism is a commandment, so is keeping the Lord's Supper a commandment.
But, commandment or not, Baptism is a work, a good work, a commanded work, a work that we should all do, but a work none the less. And we are saved by grace through faith, not of works so that no man can boast.
If we believe on Jesus Christ then we will be saved.
Joshua David
Hi Joshua,
You seem open minded so let present my case. Ephesians 2:8 is usually quoted out of context. Christians quote it and say anything we do is a work, however, in Ephesians 2:8 Paul has something specific in mind when he say they are not saved by works.Remember this is a letter not a list of verses, we need ot understand everything in this letter in the context of the entire letter. So, let's look at the larger context. If they aren't saved by works, why aren't they saved by works?
Ephesians 2:11-20 ( KJV )
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and
hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
The reason they're not saved by works is because Christ abolished the Law. We see from this that Paul's reference to works here is a refernce to Works of hte Mosaic Law. In verse 10 he tells them that they were created fro good works. Take notice that most times when you see Paul mention works there is some mention of the Law. Now, consider this words of Paul also.
Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV )
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Here Paul says that God will judge every man according to his deeds. Surely Paul is not contradicting himself, is he? He says those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. Logic dictates that if works palyed no part in obtaining eternal life, all the good doing in the world would not be seeking eternal life, yet Paul says it is.
Then we also have the words of James to consider. James says that faith without works is dead. Many Christians say that James is saying that real faith will produce works, however, look closely at what he said, faith without works is dead, he asks rhetorically can that faith save? the answer is no. Well, if faith must have works in order to be alive, then works cannot logically be the product of faith they must be a part of faith. He makes this case clearer a few verses later.
James 2:20-23 ( KJV )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
We see here that James says faith worked together with Abraham’s works, and by works his faith was made complete. Earlier he said faith without works is dead , it is unable to save. If it works that make this dead faith complete and able to save, logic dictates that works must be necessary for salvation.
I think this is sufficient to show that works are indeed necessary , if not please feel free to let me know I can go further. Moving on to Baptism, while God can save anyone He chooses to save any way He chooses to save them, we are told to be baptized. The Ante Nicene Church understood baptism as the point where one is born again, John 3:5 and others. However, the apostle Paul directly connects baptism to the resurrection.
Romans 6:3-5 ( YLT )
are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
For, if we have become planted together to the
likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;
I’ve used Young’s Literal translation here because it makes the a little more clearly. Paul says, if we have been planted together to the likeness of his death. The Greek word translated likeness is
Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G3667 ὁμοίωμα homoiōma Thayer Definition: 1) that which has been made after the likeness of something 1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation 1b) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity Part of Speech: noun neuter
Notice it’s a figure, an image, a representation. An image is something that can be seen, likewise a representation can be seen so this is something visible. That would exclude being baptized in the holy Spirit. Firstly, the baptism in the holy Spirit is invisible not visible. Secondly baptism in the holy Spirit is not a representation of anything. Water baptism on the other hand is both visible and it is a representation of our partaking in Christ’s death. So, I think it is clear that Paul is referring here to water baptism, and it is this baptism that he ties to the resurrection. He says, if we have been planted in the likeness of his death we shall also be of the rising again. This ties water baptism directly to participation in the resurrection.
For anyone to imply that we MUST be baptized to be saved is rather ridiculous. If someone is dying immediately, can they not be saved without being baptized? Of course they can.
You can't use situational circumstances to dismiss the word of God. As I said before God can save anyone He wants to save. However, Paul ties water baptism to the resurrection see my post to Joshua.
I was not aware that water baptism was required under THE LAW of Moses.
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That's not what I said. When the thief was saved, the New Covenant had not yet gone into effect because Jesus was still alvie.
