The Flesh & The Spirit

[WhiteKnuckle]

Thinking on the flesh of Jesus.

Truth, you mentioned that Jesus was flesh and was dying. (His human form not His heavenly form)

Our death is inherited, the sinful fleshly nature that is in us human beings in the form of flesh is what we inherited.

When Adam and Eve were created, they were sinless. Sin had not yet entered into the world. They were themselves at that time imortal. There was no death.

When Jesus human flesh was created, it wasn't created in the normal way as we are. He was created straight from God into Marry's womb.

Jesus did not inherit death and sin as we did. He was perfect and without sin. His flesh was perfect and without sin and without the inherited death.

Jesus said they did not kill Him. He layed down His life.

When someone dies on a cross they suffocate. They can barely talk. The thief next to Jesus on the cross more likely repented before the suffocation or even during the midst and it was a faint whisper.
Right before Jesus died He cried out with a shout, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?" and then "It is finished!".

On the cross and only on the cross was Jesus made sin. Not before. The Bible states that death had no power over Him. So, Jesus was resurected. He defeated Satan and Destroyed Him. Destroyed means Destroying his power. That means that all those who are in Christ are not in the devils control and can't be. Those who aren't are under his control. Admittedly, I don't know what Satans power was like before.

Are you familiar with war or fighting?

When a fighter wins, it's said his opponent is destroyed or rendered powerless. Now, the defeated could still whip the snot out of any untrained fighter. But, if an untrained fighter is standing with the guy who was the victor, the untrained fighter is considered just as strong and untouchable as the victor.

But, we do know that the one who lost can still do works.

 

[Alethos]

Thinking on the flesh of Jesus.

Truth, you mentioned that Jesus was flesh and was dying. (His human form not His heavenly form)

Our death is inherited, the sinful fleshly nature that is in us human beings in the form of flesh is what we inherited.

When Adam and Eve were created, they were sinless. Sin had not yet entered into the world. They were themselves at that time imortal. There was no death.

When Jesus human flesh was created, it wasn't created in the normal way as we are. He was created straight from God into Marry's womb.

Jesus did not inherit death and sin as we did. He was perfect and without sin. His flesh was perfect and without sin and without the inherited death.

Jesus said they did not kill Him. He layed down His life.

When someone dies on a cross they suffocate. They can barely talk. The thief next to Jesus on the cross more likely repented before the suffocation or even during the midst and it was a faint whisper.
Right before Jesus died He cried out with a shout, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?" and then "It is finished!".

On the cross and only on the cross was Jesus made sin. Not before. The Bible states that death had no power over Him. So, Jesus was resurected. He defeated Satan and Destroyed Him. Destroyed means Destroying his power. That means that all those who are in Christ are not in the devils control and can't be. Those who aren't are under his control. Admittedly, I don't know what Satans power was like before.

Are you familiar with war or fighting?

When a fighter wins, it's said his opponent is destroyed or rendered powerless. Now, the defeated could still whip the snot out of any untrained fighter. But, if an untrained fighter is standing with the guy who was the victor, the untrained fighter is considered just as strong and untouchable as the victor.

But, we do know that the one who lost can still do works.

WhiteKnuckle did you read the Sin & Death post?

You may like to study those scriptures first and see how your above thoughts fit their meaning and not my understanding!

By the way Adam and Eve were never immortal, they were in a state of being good, never immortal not mortal, a period of probation. An immortal being can never sin that is why they were thrust from the garden. God would NEVER allow his children to partake from the true of life in fallen sinful state.

[sup]22[/sup]Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us (Angels), knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" Gen 3:22

I want to make this point absolutely clear, no negotiation nor interpretation required. GOD WOULD NEVER ALLOW AN IMMORTAL SINNER IN HIS PRESENCE OR ON EARTH!!!!

[sup]23[/sup]therefore the LORD God sent him out from the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. Gen 3:23

Alethos

 

[veteran]

[quote name='Truth' timestamp='1302677677' post='107802']

Ezekiel 28:13-15 ​

Ezekiel 28:13-15 "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God . . . Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; . . . Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." ​

In Ezek 28 Can you find anywhere the terms "devil", "satan", or "fallen angel"?

You mention this chapter a lot in your satan posts but nowhere is he mentioned. If anything before we progress you must state your demonic being is inferred!

ESV [sup]14[/sup]You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;

NIV [sup]14[/sup] You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.

The anointed cherub accepting the A.V. translation is identified in the passage, but not with a rebel angel:

"Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus . . ." Ezek 28:2. In chapters 26 and 27 prophecies recorded the then impending doom of the city of Tyre.

I know you have prefaced your comments that this is not speaking of the prince of Tyrus, so I require proof, verse 2 states clearly the person in mention is the Prince of Tyre. [/quote]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well then, I'd say God presented that Ezekiel 28 Scripture like that JUST FOR FOLKS LIKE YOURSELF that think you know, but don't.

Have you bothered to look up the meaning for that name Tyrus? It means 'rock'. IT IS A SYMBOLIC REFERENCE. God's Word gives many such type references JUST FOR THOSE IN CONFUSION LIKE YOURSELF, just like the 'fowls' reference for the devil Christ gave in Matthew 13.

Deut 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Who is that "Rock" (uppercase) being used as a symbolic reference for?


1 Sam 2:2
2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any Rock like our God.
(KJV)

Deut 32:3-4
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.
(KJV)

That pretty well established Who that "Rock" of Deut.32:31 is; It's a symbol for The LORD GOD Himself.

So who's that little "rock" also in that Deut.32:31 Scripture? Per God's Message in Ezekiel 28, who is it that said, "I am God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas"? It was the "prince of Tyrus "; and the name Tyrus means 'rock'. In Isaiah 14 God repeats that boast by the devil who wants to be GOD The Rock. The devil, Satan, that old serpent, is the little "rock" God is talking about here.

Don't you just hate it when God gives such symbolic references to the devil like this? I'll bet you really do.


Deut.31:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

Are you grasping this? Who and what else is wine used as a symbolic reference for in God's Word? Christ's Blood shed on the cross, the cup of wine representing His Blood of The New Covenant Jesus offered His Apostles.

But THEIR wine is what? "the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps." Did you get that? Let me make it more simple for you...

GOD The Rock is about the True Vine of Christ, not the "vine of Sodom". The wine of their "rock" is poison of DRAGONS, and venom of ASPS. Now what did Christ reveal to John in Revelation 12:9 about Satan the devil? He called him by another name, "that old serpent"! WOW!!! No wonder those "poison of dragons" and "venom of asps" symbols were given there, eh? It's about the false "rock", their rock, the devil himself, "that old serpent", Satan.

Oh, but wait a minute, God never came right out literally and said 'devil' or 'Satan' in any of that did He? Nope. But He expects His people to have enough common sense to understand who He is pointing to.


Deut.32:34 Is not this laid up in store with Me, and sealed up among My treasures?
35 To Me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the LORD shall judge His people, and repent Himself for His servants, when He seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And He shall say, "Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
(KJV)


The next point in Ezekiel 28 is another major miss on your part...

Ezek 28:12-14
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus (rock), and say unto him, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(KJV)

Don't you know that no flesh king EVER WAS IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN? who does not know that?

So who WAS in God's Garden of Eden that fit that "anointed cherub"? ANSWER: that old serpent, the devil, Satan.

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)


Now if you really want to try getting coy with me, you can attempt to explain the following...

Job 1:6-8
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, "Whence comest thou?" Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, "Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"
(KJV)

But you're gonna' look pretty foolish trying to defend your false belief that Satan is not a real entity with God speaking directly to him as a real entity.

 

[Alethos]

Jesus did not inherit death and sin as we did. He was perfect and without sin. His flesh was perfect and without sin and without the inherited death.

Just quickly.

Heb 5:7 contradicts your above point - if it were so, you have just made his many prayers and crying meaningless...and would could never have that, could we?

And just in case you try to imply this was only his actual death experience. It was during the days (plural) his whole life was filled with these prayers. Why? Because death reigned over him Heb 2:14.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Because death reigned over him Heb 2:14.

Nothing had power over Jesus. He died because he chose to do so. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

John 10:17-18 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. [sup]18 [/sup]No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

 

[Alethos]

Nothing had power over Jesus. He died because he chose to do so. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

John 10:17-18 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. [sup]18 [/sup]No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

Hi Ducky...nice to meet with you again on the forum.

Eph 2:14 For he (Jesus) himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

What exactly did Jesus break down in his flesh?
What is the one man compared to the two which was in him?

Clue: hostility; by implication a reason for opposition: - enmity, hatred.

Maybe you would like to answer what "law of commandments expressed in ordinances" means?

Another clue: Gen 3:15

Thanks Ducky

Alethos

ps. I am off to bed..sleep peacefully! If you respond in opposition its because you used the other mind? if you know what I mean?

 

[Duckybill]

What exactly did Jesus break down in his flesh?

He abolished THE LAW of Moses, by dying in the flesh.

Ephesians 2:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

What is the one man compared to the two which was in him?

It's talking about THE LAW and Grace.

Clue: hostility; by implication a reason for opposition: - enmity, hatred.

Maybe you would like to answer what "law of commandments expressed in ordinances" means?

See above.

Another clue: Gen 3:15

You will never prove that Jesus took on our sinful nature. Never!

 

[[email protected]]

Please don’t refer to the scholar’s rjp, study to show "yourself" approved...that you may rightly handle the Word of God. 2 Tim 2:15. The scholars are exactly that, scholars, because they consult their many philosophies of men, and as you know have many books. 1 Cor 1:20-27

He who relies solely upon his own leadership is his own worst advisor.

Let me say this clearly, IT IS NOT WISE TO RELY SOLELY UPON ONE'S OWN WISDOM AND INTERPRETATION.

Will you rely solely upon your own judgment when you have a tooth ache, when your car breaks down, when you have a legal issue, when you have great pain in your body? No. You will not. You WILL seek out experts and people who know more about the situation than you do. When you have gathered all available information you then make a decision.

Why then is it considered foolishness to seek out the opinion of scholars and men of experience with regard to spiritual matters?

IT IS BECAUSE OF SPIRITUAL PRIDE AND WORLDLY LAZINESS, NOTHING LESS.

I AM an authority on Biblical matters, having been formally educated in a large northern seminary by my betters.
Nevertheless I constantly seek out and consider the words and advice of other men for I AM NOT AN ISLAND UNTO MYSELF.

I choose to humble myself and seek advice and consultation at all points for I am aware of the possibilities AND DANGERS of falling into error.

Pride goes before a fall and the man that considers himself to be the highest spiritual authority is already losing altitude.

 

[Alethos]

He who relies solely upon his own leadership is his own worst advisor.

Let me say this clearly, IT IS NOT WISE TO RELY SOLELY UPON ONE'S OWN WISDOM AND INTERPRETATION.

Will you rely solely upon your own judgment when you have a tooth ache, when your car breaks down, when you have a legal issue, when you have great pain in your body? No. You will not. You WILL seek out experts and people who know more about the situation than you do. When you have gathered all available information you then make a decision.

Why then is it considered foolishness to seek out the opinion of scholars and men of experience with regard to spiritual matters?

IT IS BECAUSE OF SPIRITUAL PRIDE AND WORLDLY LAZINESS, NOTHING LESS.

I AM an authority on Biblical matters, having been formally educated in a large northern seminary by my betters.
Nevertheless I constantly seek out and consider the words and advice of other men for I AM NOT AN ISLAND UNTO MYSELF.

I choose to humble myself and seek advice and consultation at all points for I am aware of the possibilities AND DANGERS of falling into error.

Pride goes before a fall and the man that considers himself to be the highest spiritual authority is already losing altitude.

rjp

Which would you prefer.

Consult teaches with itching ears (2 Tim 4:3), or allow the Word to solely train you in righteousness?

Let God be your teacher.

[sup]2 Tim 3:14-16[/sup] But as for you (rjp), continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, [sup]15[/sup] and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [sup]16[/sup] All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Now I agree with your statement that some supplementary works can be considered, but ultimately the Word is our supreme teacher.

All scripture is divinely inspired: 2 Pet 1:20,21; 3:2. My Bible is not just information about the Heavenlies, it’s about transformation of mind to those things above and not below. From these Scriptures we are taught and we can "preach" ( 2Ti 4:2). We can be rebuke (Heb 11:1; John 16:8; 2 Ti 4:2). And correct others who need as the word implies "a straightening up again", rectification and reformation. We can be trained in righteousness like being educated as a child. It’s a source of "encourage" (2 Ti 4:2) for those being trained by it.

I don’t believe to this you disagree, the Bible IS and always the first source of truth. It must be understood... see also Heb 4:13; 1 Ti 1:15; 2:3; 4:4; etc)

And Rjp, please don’t mistaken my confidence (Rom 15:17-19;20-22; 23-24) in God’s Word for pride, if I boast, I do so in Christ Jesus and while I have no formal training by seminaries or such, this makes me a commoner, of no reputation, or persuasion, other than that which the Father provides.

By the way, did you see Ducky’s response to Eph 2:14-15? Maybe you can help him better understand this beautiful passage of scripture?

Alethos

You will never prove that Jesus took on our sinful nature. Never!

With this attitude what can you learn?

 

[Alethos]

Short Sin & Death Study Completed

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

With this attitude what can you learn?

I have learned that Satan is busy sending his ministers to try to deceive us. Too bad you didn't learn it.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. [sup]14 [/sup]And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

 

[Alethos]

Hi Ducky

Eph 2:14 - 15 For he (Jesus) himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down "in his flesh" the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Whether it be Ducky or Alethos, Jesus slew the enmity between the serpent mind and the woman's seed (Gen 3:15). Jesus is the "serpent" lifted up in the wilderness (Num 21:9; John 3:14,15), and in doing so could not be "bruised" again. You are right Ducky, that Jesus "blotted out the handwriting of ordinances" that was against the Jew (Col 2:14). So in his death, sin was destroyed, the righteousness of God honored, and the flesh "of sin" destroyed which was the perfect sacrifice. Even the pious Jew today who devotes his life to the Law of Moses will never "slay the enmity", without Christ.

The Enmity is in the flesh (Gen 3:15) and Jesus was born of a woman.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Col 2:14 (Jesus) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Jesus was made of a woman because this is how the emnity in his nature was destroyed.
Jesus was born under the law becasue he nail it to the cross because they only reveal sin.

Alethos :mellow: going to bed...good night Ducky.

Ducky

I have an easy question for you to answer.

Was Jesus a serpent lifted up on a cross?

Num 21:9 & John 3:14-15

Be careful how you answer Ducky John 3:15 is one of those very important verses.

Alethos

These verses have to worry the devil and satan believers!

ps...now I am going to bed!

 

[Duckybill]

So in his death, sin was destroyed, the righteousness of God honored, and the flesh "of sin" destroyed which was the perfect sacrifice

If sin was destroyed then why is the world so evil? Sin wasn't destroyed.

I have an easy question for you to answer.

Was Jesus a serpent lifted up on a cross?

No. Satan is the serpent. Interesting though that you continue to try to make Jesus sinful.

Revelation 20:2 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

These verses have to worry the devil and satan believers!

Only if Jesus was a sinner as you keep implying.

You have already revealed your clear intent to make Jesus have a sinful nature.

You wrote:

"Jesus Christ was born with a nature prone to sin and here represented as a serpent, stated in his own words."

"FACT: Jesus took on our human nature to overcome the devil"

 

[Alethos]

I couldnt sleep Ducky.

Can you explain why Jesus would refer to himself as the serpent lifted up in the wilderness?

Numbers 21:9 & John 3:14-15

Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man (Jesus) be lifted up:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

What does the serpent (Jesus) being lifted up on a cross and dieing have to do with eternal life?

Can you see how this is refering to Jesus as a serpent?

Alethos

ps. If you are reading this and you would like to know the interpration, please read Sin & Death

 

[Duckybill]

Can you explain why Jesus would refer to himself as the serpent lifted up in the wilderness?

He didn't.

What does the serpent (Jesus) being lifted up on a cross and dieing have to do with eternal life?

Jesus isn't the serpent. Satan is.

Can you see how this is refering to Jesus as a serpent?

It isn't. You are severely twisting the text to fit your 'sinful Jesus' doctrine. I have no doubt that your Jesus is the serpent. Not mine.

Revelation 12:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Alethos]

He didn't.

Jesus isn't the serpent. Satan is.

It isn't. You are severely twisting the text to fit your 'sinful Jesus' doctrine. I have no doubt that your Jesus is the serpent. Not mine.

Revelation 12:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So explain why Jesus refers to himself as a serpent being lifted up on the cross? Num 21:9 & John 3:13-14

Notice how the Israelite when the looked upon the serpent (Jesus) they were made well?

If we look upon Jesus do we live?

Waiting.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

So explain why Jesus refers to himself as a serpent being lifted up on the cross? Num 21:9 & John 3:13-14

He didn't. Why are you? You are twisting the Scripture.

Notice how the Israelite when the looked upon the serpent (Jesus) they were made well?

Waiting.

Doesn't this bother anyone else that he is calling Jesus the serpent??? It should make you all sick.

 

[Alethos]

He didn't. Why are you? You are twisting the Scripture.

Doesn't this bother anyone else that he is calling Jesus the serpent??? It should make you all sick.

So explain why Jesus refers to himself as a serpent being lifted up on the cross?

Why a serpent Ducky? Read Sin & Death (app posts) and the come back and answer the question

Ducky, Jesus is saying he is the serpent not me...read the word Num 21:9 & John 3:13, 14, 15

Notice how both the Serpent and Jesus gave life to those who look upon him!

Ducky this is a conundrum for you isn’t it?

Alethos

ps. Ask Veteran or Aspen to provide an explanation of Num 21:9 & John 3:13-15 maybe they can provide an understanding from the make believe?

 

[Duckybill]

So explain why Jesus refers to himself as a serpent being lifted up on the cross?

Now you use the word "as". Why are you changing your wording? Before you called him "the serpent".

"What does the serpent (Jesus) being lifted up on a cross and dieing have to do with eternal life?"

Your message is from THE SERPENT himself.

 

[Robbie]

I think the flesh is our natural desires/perception and the Spirit is the understanding of God...

The flesh is in it's right place when it's ruled by God...

If you're in the garden of Eden and your flesh is telling you that you're hungry it's good because it's what let's you know it's time to eat as long as it's controlled by God's understanding of only eat from these trees ... on the other hand if you're in the garden of Eden and your flesh is telling you that God's wrong because the tree looks good to eat and able to make you wise and you reject God's understanding based on the understanding of the flesh it's bad...

Same thing goes for say sexual attraction... being sexually attracted to a woman is a great thing when it leads to marriage and operates under the authority of God... on the other hand when our sexual attraction dictates is into say cheating on our wives and rejecting God's wisdom then it becomes bad...

Basically everything is good when it's ruled by God... even our flesh...

But that's just my opinion...