The Flesh & The Spirit

[Alethos]

I've wondered that also.

Note what some of the people of Israel did with that brass serpent many years later...

II Ki 18:1-4
1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.
2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah.
3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
(KJV)

Some among Israel were still burning incense to that brass serpent image in worship to it in the days of king Hezekiah.

Veteran & Ducky

That is nothing compared to what many have done to Jesus Christ in this wicked age.

1 John 4:2

But you both dont believe Jesus came in the flesh and that God made him sin for us. 2 Cor 5:21

1 John 4:3

Do you confess Veteran and Ducky that Jesus Christ came in the Flesh?...or do you confess something else? Falsehood and lies? Did your father come out from among them? He also didnt believe Jesus came in the flesh.

2 John 1:7

And you imply I am the deceiver?

I have been teaching for weeks that Jesus came in the Flesh Sin, Death and Jesus Christ , while you both have been denying its power and holding fast to lies.

You dont know the true Gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His holy prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning His Son who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord...." Rom 1:1-4 compare 2 Jo 1:7.

Come together, rally more if you like, I have Almighty God & His Beloved Son as my strenght...and His opened word gives light.

Alethos

 

[[email protected]]

I believe in the existence of such things as witchcraft, voodoo, etc. That Fortune-telling, mysticism, and the like can actually can have a perverted power behind them. Some are just crazy and are trying to make money. If there is true supernatural power they can access, what authority/whom do they access it from?

What spiritual power does this come from? The Bible calls these entitites "powers and authorities" (referring to the power structure of the enemies' kingdom), "demons" meaning fallen corrupted angels, and "unclean spirits" meaning yet another type of spiritual entity that preys upon living humans.

Some lump all this sort of thing into 'the devil', but the devil or shaitan as the Muslims call it is not personally involved in all such activity (that would make it omnipresent like God - and it certainly IS NOT).
Yet all such things may be put in the category of the kingdom of the enemy.

The basic explanation of what is going on with this involvement of humans by wicked spirits is that they are a form of parasite.

par·a·site (pr-st)
n.
1. Biology An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
2.
a. One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
b. One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.
3. A professional dinner guest, especially in ancient Greece.

Spiritually then, corrupt spirits of the kingdom of satan/shaitan attach themselves to humans to "grow, feed on and be sheltered in" the human host.
The Bible even refers to a human as a 'house' or 'temple' - depending upon the context of the body's use. House is negative. Temple is holy.
They contribute nothing and because of their voracious unchecked appetites will cause the host organism (human) to be destroyed before it's time.
Because humans also have a spiritual component it is possible that the human spirit will not make peace with God during this period of hosting, may be corrupted beyond relief and will itself be lost to God after death.

Spiritual parasites use many methods and schemes to sucker humans. The Bible says that they tempt us by means of our own lusts.
If a gambler, then the games are a way in.
If addicted to sex, then the perversions of love are another.
What person who has experience with a drug addict has not heard the term "monkey on my back"?
There is no good psychological reason for one who has kicked the habit via a good rehab program to return to drugs, yet they do.
THEY THEMSELVES testify to something beyond their own mind which draws them in.
In the middle ages, gluttony was assumed to be a method of spiritual attack YET TODAY IT IS FORBIDDEN TO PREACH AGAINST IT.
(Very strange. Sex was once a subject not discussed in polite company, yet today it has been replaced by gluttony. We hear about tithing all the time, but when was the last time you heard a sermon about gluttony? It is a forbidden subject in church.)
Corrupt spirits do indeed use gluttony to fasten themselves upon a human. Ever see a man or woman with a food obsession? Partly physical, like drugs, partly psychological and partly spiritual.
The Bible and tradition teaches the saints of the benefits of fasting (even gives guidelines on how to do it and what sort of attitude one should have in the process) - YET THERE IS NO PREACHING ON THE SPIRITUAL POWER OF FASTING AS SOMETHING ONE OUGHT TO DO.
Jesus fasted. As Christians we are encouraged in church to follow His example, EXCEPT IN FASTING.

Witchcraft, voodoo, fortunetelling and mysticism are corrupted forms of religion and as such provide a semi-legitimate excuse for spiritual parasites to work their way into the human host.

By what authority do these spiritual entities act?

The really sad thing is that these things are done BY HUMAN AUTHORITY. The Bible teaches that satan lost all authority when it was forced out of heaven. The first thing it did when it arrived on earth (See Genesis ch 3), was to usurp human authority to itself.
Humans GIVE THEMSELVES to these destructive parasitic spirits. When this is done, the human loses control and the spirits reign supreme.

Christ comes to seize that authority from the corrupt spirits, remove the parasites from the human, and return the humans' original authority - PROVISIONALLY ( a small bit at a time and only under direct supervision - as an adult will do with a child).

 

[Duckybill]

But you both dont believe Jesus came in the flesh and that God made him sin for us. 2 Cor 5:21

That's a lie from Satan. YES, Jesus/God came in the flesh.

Do you confess Veteran and Ducky that Jesus Christ came in the Flesh?...or do you confess something else? Falsehood and lies? Did your father come out from among them? He also didnt believe Jesus came in the flesh.

YES, Jesus/God came in the flesh. But you don't believe it.

2 John 1:7

And you imply I am the deceiver?

Absolutely!!!!!!!

I have been teaching for weeks that Jesus came in the Flesh Sin, Death and Jesus Christ , while you both have been denying its power and holding fast to lies.

You don't believe that Jesus/God came in the flesh. I.E.

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

You dont know the true Gospel

of God, which He promised beforehand through His holy prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning His Son who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord...." Rom 1:1-4 compare 2 Jo 1:7.

Come together, rally more if you like, I have Almighty God & His Beloved Son as my strenght...and His opened word gives light.

You have already admitted that your savior had a sinful nature. You don't have a Savior.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Okay, firstly,,,


Based on my understanding, There was no death on earth until sin. Then death entered. God removed Adam and Eve away from the tree of life because if they ate of it they would be immortal, and live immortally (sp?) sinfull. As a result of sin, all flesh is dying.

Eitherway, if Adam and eve were mortal prior, Jesus was still Immortal even in the flesh. Had He been sent here for any other purpose than dying on the cross, He would still be walking around in the same body today.

Jesus wasn't created as we were in the womb, so, His flesh was pure.


Now, to address the brass serpent.

I don't believe that the serpent was Jesus. The serpent represented sin. When Jesus was on the cross He was made sin. Everyone that puts their faith in the sin nailed to the cross will be saved.

Maybe on this point it's just a little bit of semantics.

Editied to add....

I don't believe Truth is a deciever. However, I do think there's some confusion and misunderstanding.

Either way,, for all of us involved, and since we're asking,,


Do we all agree and believe that Jesus came in the flesh, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again? If so, we can carry on with this conversation. I think it's great.

 

[Duckybill]

Do we all agree and believe that Jesus came in the flesh, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again? If so, we can carry on with this conversation. I think it's great.

'Truth' doesn't believe that Jesus/God came in the flesh. That is typical cult doctrine. I.E. JW's, SDA's.

Jesus/God in the OT:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

 

[veteran]

Veteran & Ducky

That is nothing compared to what many have done to Jesus Christ in this wicked age.

1 John 4:2

But you both dont believe Jesus came in the flesh and that God made him sin for us. 2 Cor 5:21

Alethos,

You've simply stumbled upon a doctrine you should not have with associating that brass serpent with Christ in such a way. The main subject has not been whether we believe that Christ came in the flesh, for I do believe Christ came in the flesh as Immanuel God with us, as written. Duckybill has stated he believes Christ came in the flesh also.

 

[Alethos]

Alethos,

You've simply stumbled upon a doctrine you should not have with associating that brass serpent with Christ in such a way. The main subject has not been whether we believe that Christ came in the flesh, for I do believe Christ came in the flesh as Immanuel God with us, as written. Duckybill has stated he believes Christ came in the flesh also.

Veteran & Ducky, everyone who has read this forum has witnessed you both wholly refute Christ being made sin for us 2 Cor 5:21, and that he put "his" serpent nature to death on the cross. In doing so, you have failed to identify with Jesus Christ in John 3:15-17 that much is true. You have disregarded every scripture which speaks to his flesh and blood nature Heb 2:14 not acknowledging the victory in him.

But now after speaking out against such truth, you now turn around and say he came in the flesh????

What "kind" of flesh did he come in Veteran & Ducky?

Please explain.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Okay, firstly,,,

Based on my understanding, There was no death on earth until sin. Then death entered. God removed Adam and Eve away from the tree of life because if they ate of it they would be immortal, and live immortally (sp?) sinfull. As a result of sin, all flesh is dying.

Eitherway, if Adam and eve were mortal prior, Jesus was still Immortal even in the flesh. Had He been sent here for any other purpose than dying on the cross, He would still be walking around in the same body today.

Jesus wasn't created as we were in the womb, so, His flesh was pure.

Could Jesus have sinned?

Now, to address the brass serpent.

I don't believe that the serpent was Jesus. The serpent represented sin. When Jesus was on the cross He was made sin. Everyone that puts their faith in the sin nailed to the cross will be saved.

Maybe on this point it's just a little bit of semantics.

Editied to add....

I don't believe Truth is a deciever. However, I do think there's some confusion and misunderstanding.

Either way,, for all of us involved, and since we're asking,,


Do we all agree and believe that Jesus came in the flesh, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again? If so, we can carry on with this conversation. I think it's great.

Whiteknuckle.

No misunderstanding here.

The nature Jesus referred to is one which "must" be lifted up and is found in Num 21:9.
Jesus made the connection between himself and the bronze serpent
Jesus understood the manner of his death and what it would achieve
Jesus was not pure in flesh for the potential for sin to dwell in him was no difference to us today.
There is not two different kinds of flesh one for Jesus and one for us...Veteran & Ducky are yet to learn this vital lesson. They hold onto the false doctrine of the Trinity and cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the true nature of Jesus Christ.
The semantics are vital to "life" for even Jesus said John 3:15, maybe some here are looking at a different Jesus?

What was the connection between the Serpent and Jesus Christ?
And why was one with venom and one venomless? What does this represent in Christ?

Veteran would have us believe the serpent in the wilderness is the devil, if so, Heb 2:14 states its dead to Christ. Which makes utter nonsense of the account, as it has to do with the work in the death of Christ not some supernatural being.

Whiteknuckle, how many kinds of flesh are there? And if Jesus had a special kind of flesh, how was he able to Heb 4:15 & 1 Peter 3:18 1 Peter 4:1 and on and on...

The semantics are essential for salvation...you cannot on one hand say Jesus came in the Flesh and on the other say he is God and was pure in flesh!

In fact what you are saying is Jesus was not like us in any way and therefore you qualify for 1 John 4:2-4.

Alethos

 

[veteran]

Okay, firstly,,,

Based on my understanding, There was no death on earth until sin. Then death entered. God removed Adam and Eve away from the tree of life because if they ate of it they would be immortal, and live immortally (sp?) sinfull. As a result of sin, all flesh is dying.

Eitherway, if Adam and eve were mortal prior, Jesus was still Immortal even in the flesh. Had He been sent here for any other purpose than dying on the cross, He would still be walking around in the same body today.

I Jn 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
(KJV)

The devil did the very first sin, ever. That's when sin and death officially began. It did not begin in the flesh with Adam and Eve, for that was later after the devil had been cast out. Before the devil tempted Adam and Eve, death and sin had not yet been assigned to them yet, but already to Satan. God showed us how Satan had already been sentenced to perish in the lake of fire early on. This is why the "son of perdition" label is a title for Satan himself. He caused it all in the beginning.

Our Lord Jesus was born in the flesh like us, but He had no sin, ever. How could He do that being born in the flesh like us? It's because He is God The Saviour. He layed down His life of the flesh for us, even while He was still God having come in the flesh (i.e., the meaning of His Name Emmanuel in Matthew).

Now, to address the brass serpent.

I don't believe that the serpent was Jesus. The serpent represented sin. When Jesus was on the cross He was made sin. Everyone that puts their faith in the sin nailed to the cross will be saved.

That's still wrong, by your statement in bold. We don't put our Faith in sin nailed to the cross, but in Christ Jesus The Saviour Who condemned sin in the flesh by His death on the cross. Not a subtile difference, but a huge difference. Not different semantics, but a sharp dividing line between Life and death.

Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(KJV)

But the brass serpent of Num.21, God used that to represent death for those who put their faith in the devil and idols. This is why 2 Kings 18 shows the unfaithful of Israel still bowing in ignorance to that brass serpent idol Moses made, even burning incense to it. Hezekiah, king of Judah, eventually destroyed that brass serpent image. We're supposed to grasp that brass serpent idol image represented Satan himself, and how our Lord Jesus would defeat him.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I Jn 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
(KJV)

The devil did the very first sin, ever. That's when sin and death officially began. It did not begin in the flesh with Adam and Eve, for that was later after the devil had been cast out. Before the devil tempted Adam and Eve, death and sin had not yet been assigned to them yet, but already to Satan. God showed us how Satan had already been sentenced to perish in the lake of fire early on. This is why the "son of perdition" label is a title for Satan himself. He caused it all in the beginning.

Our Lord Jesus was born in the flesh like us, but He had no sin, ever. How could He do that being born in the flesh like us? It's because He is God The Saviour. He layed down His life of the flesh for us, even while He was still God having come in the flesh (i.e., the meaning of His Name Emmanuel in Matthew).




That's still wrong, by your statement in bold. We don't put our Faith in sin nailed to the cross, but in Christ Jesus The Saviour Who condemned sin in the flesh by His death on the cross. Not a subtile difference, but a huge difference. Not different semantics, but a sharp dividing line between Life and death.

Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(KJV)

But the brass serpent of Num.21, God used that to represent death for those who put their faith in the devil and idols. This is why 2 Kings 18 shows the unfaithful of Israel still bowing in ignorance to that brass serpent idol Moses made, even burning incense to it. Hezekiah, king of Judah, eventually destroyed that brass serpent image. We're supposed to grasp that brass serpent idol image represented Satan himself, and how our Lord Jesus would defeat him.

You're right, especially on the "sin nailed to the cross", I misstated that. Sorry.

Veteran & Ducky, everyone who has read this forum has witnessed you both wholly refute Christ being made sin for us 2 Cor 5:21, and that he put "his" serpent nature to death on the cross. In doing so, you have failed to identify with Jesus Christ in John 3:15-17 that much is true. You have disregarded every scripture which speaks to his flesh and blood nature Heb 2:14 not acknowledging the victory in him. But now after speaking out against such truth, you now turn around and say he came in the flesh????What "kind" of flesh did he come in Veteran & Ducky? Please explain.Alethos

I'm not sure I understand this, but, it seems a little alarming.

Could Jesus have sinned?Whiteknuckle.No misunderstanding here.The nature Jesus referred to is one which "must" be lifted up and is found in Num 21:9.Jesus made the connection between himself and the bronze serpent Jesus understood the manner of his death and what it would achieveJesus was not pure in flesh for the potential for sin to dwell in him was no difference to us today. There is not two different kinds of flesh one for Jesus and one for us...Veteran & Ducky are yet to learn this vital lesson. They hold onto the false doctrine of the Trinity and cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the true nature of Jesus Christ. The semantics are vital to "life" for even Jesus said John 3:15, maybe some here are looking at a different Jesus? What was the connection between the Serpent and Jesus Christ?And why was one with venom and one venomless? What does this represent in Christ?Veteran would have us believe the serpent in the wilderness is the devil, if so, Heb 2:14 states its dead to Christ. Which makes utter nonsense of the account, as it has to do with the work in the death of Christ not some supernatural being. Whiteknuckle, how many kinds of flesh are there? And if Jesus had a special kind of flesh, how was he able to Heb 4:15 & 1 Peter 3:18 1 Peter 4:1 and on and on...The semantics are essential for salvation...you cannot on one hand say Jesus came in the Flesh and on the other say he is God and was pure in flesh! In fact what you are saying is Jesus was not like us in any way and therefore you qualify for 1 John 4:2-4.Alethos

It is written. God cannot sin. No Jesus could not have sinned. It's written there was no sin found in Him. No, Jesus had no potential to sin. It couldn't have happened. Not even in His flesh. There was a reason Jesus wasn't created from man and woman but directly from God to be born in human flesh.

 

[Alethos]

It is written. God cannot sin. No Jesus could not have sinned. It's written there was no sin found in Him. No, Jesus had no potential to sin. It couldn't have happened. Not even in His flesh. There was a reason Jesus wasn't created from man and woman but directly from God to be born in human flesh.

I think you ought to rethink your above statements in light of these scriptures.

Go over your statement slowly and read the below scriptures with care.

Heb 2:14; Heb 4:15; 1 Peter 4:1; Gal 5:24; 6:14; Eph 4:22 1 Peter 3:18; Rom 9:5 Rom 13:14

With your above comment whether knowingly or not, you have made the temptations of Jesus Christ meaningless and ineffectual. If what you say is true, Jesus did not represent mankind, at all! But was a show of suffering and mocked you and I openly. All of Matthew 4 becomes a lie, if you beleive the above red text. You are also saying that Jesus doesnt know what our nature is like and therefore Heb 4:15 is also a lie. His death, the pain and many sufferings have lost thier power...

Thankfully this is not the case!

What kind of "flesh" did Jesus have?

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Alethos,

You've simply stumbled upon a doctrine you should not have with associating that brass serpent with Christ in such a way. The main subject has not been whether we believe that Christ came in the flesh, for I do believe Christ came in the flesh as Immanuel God with us, as written. Duckybill has stated he believes Christ came in the flesh also.

Veteran,

You discredit yourself by implying I stumble over doctrines.

I wrote this little study especially for you

Once you understand the nature of Christ; that he was born of a woman like us, although having a Heavenly Father, Jesus was tempted in all point as we are and therefore he is able to "sympathise" with us, being a representative of us he destroyed the devil through his death. Heb 4:15 & Heb 2:14

Psa 91:13 You (Jesus) will tread on the lion and the adder; the young lion and the serpent you will trample underfoot.

There are allusions here to the fiery serpents that killed many of Israel in the wilderness (Num 21:6-9; Deu 8:15). We saw the venomless serpent was provided for Israel, so to us in John 3:13-15. The above is also an allusion to Gen 3:15 where Jesus being the promised seed destroyed sin and death forever. As such, Jesus now has dominion over all of God's creation (Gen 1:28; Psa 8:6,7) and over the "great beasts" of the nations upon his coming.

And the serpent you (Jesus) will trample underfoot…Jesus alluded to this in Luke 10:19; and compare Psa 91:11, 12, see also Mar 16:18; Rom 16:20. Psa 58:3-6 interprets these figures.

Rom 16:19 For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good (from God) and innocent as to what is evil (from Flesh).

Rom 16:20 The God of peace will “soon” crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Christ crushing the serpent underfoot is clearly seen from these scriptures. Howeve, Paul here is referring to the Judaizers, who sought to draw other believers especially the Gentile believers away from their freedom in Christ into an enforced bondage to the Law of Moses. Paul knew AD 70 was looming where the Roman army would crush these false teachers in a horrible battle which would last 7 months and see them eat their young among other things. Interesting Paul should use the word satan, likening the work of Jesus on the Cross, we see he destroyed all his enemies, including the Pharisees who put him to death who now await their coming judgment.

Romans 16:20 & Psa 91:13 are a plain allusion to Gen 3:15:

"And I (God) will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman (Christ), and between your (serpents) offspring and hers (Christ); he (Jesus Christ) will crush your (Serpent) head, and you (Serpent) will strike his heel." Gen 3:15

Here in Rom 16:18 is undoubtedly, the serpent, or "satan" (the adversary), which means human beings: for in context it describes those who "by smooth talk and flattery" "deceive the minds of naive people"...certainly speaks to the Pharisees and Saducees which Jesus had numerous encounters.

Conclusion:

Gen 3:15 – Jesus bruised or crush the serpents head on the cross

Psa 91:13 – Jesus trampled underfoot the serpents head “trampled” to tread upon. Imagine stomping on the head of a snake! It’s dead!

Gen 3:15 – Jesus was bruised in the heel (3 days only) and rose victorious

Rom 16:20 – The same Jews who persecuted him likewise continued their efforts in the first century church and Paul here states God would crush them to death! Like the serpent!

Num 21:9; John 3:13-15; Psa 91:13; Rom 16:19; Gen 3:15 all reveal the serpent is sin and the source of evil is the flesh and that Jesus partook of the fallen nature and with His Fathers power in thought and action destroyed the serpent in mind and body crushing its head within himself, in a perfect sacrifce in total obedience to his Father.

Alethos

ps. Just in case you question Psa 91 as speaking to Christ...Psa 91:14 "Because he (Jesus) holds fast to me (God) in love, I (God) will deliver him (Jesus); I (God) will protect him, because he (Jesus) knows my name.

What did God deliver Jesus from? Heb 5:7 :)

 

[Duckybill]

Veteran & Ducky, everyone who has read this forum has witnessed you both wholly refute Christ being made sin for us 2 Cor 5:21,

What I have 'refuted' is Jesus being made sinful as you are trying to do.

and that he put "his" serpent nature to death on the cross.

There ya go folks. Can it be any clearer? He's trying to give Jesus a Satanic nature, as I pointed out several days ago.

In doing so, you have failed to identify with Jesus Christ in John 3:15-17 that much is true. You have disregarded every scripture which speaks to his flesh and blood nature Heb 2:14 not acknowledging the victory in him.

No, I have clearly confessed that Jesus/God became flesh, but not sinful as you are implying.

But now after speaking out against such truth, you now turn around and say he came in the flesh????

What "kind" of flesh did he come in Veteran & Ducky?

Please explain.

Why don't you give us your explanation? I'm sure it will be even more revealing that you are trying to make the Savior Jesus/God sinful.

 

[[email protected]]

I think you ought to rethink your above statements in light of these scriptures.

Go over your statement slowly and read the below scriptures with care.

Heb 2:14; Heb 4:15; 1 Peter 4:1; Gal 5:24; 6:14; Eph 4:22 1 Peter 3:18; Rom 9:5 Rom 13:14

With your above comment whether knowingly or not, you have made the temptations of Jesus Christ meaningless and ineffectual. If what you say is true, Jesus did not represent mankind, at all! But was a show of suffering and mocked you and I openly. All of Matthew 4 becomes a lie, if you beleive the above red text. You are also saying that Jesus doesnt know what our nature is like and therefore Heb 4:15 is also a lie. His death, the pain and many sufferings have lost thier power...

Thankfully this is not the case!

What kind of "flesh" did Jesus have?

Alethos

The fallacy and heresy in the 'fleshy' argument is basic to salvation as Christians know it.

From the creation of Adam & Eve in the garden until today, the Bible asserts that 'the flesh' was made pure and without sin.
It is the will or heart of a man which corrupted his life in the first place. That problem remains until this day.
The flesh is created clean and it is only the use of it by a corrupted will/heart/spirit that is cause for condemnation.
This is why the battle for salvation is within - the same place we find the Kingdom of God.

The flesh participates in the consequences of its abuse in the same way as a new car might suffer the abuses of a bad driver.
The flesh is not itself wicked, but can suffer the results of wickedness when driven by its wicked heart.

The heresy of the argument that the flesh itself is sinful points to the conclusion that the flesh cannot be saved and that the spirit is saved only AFTER death, or the end of the flesh.
This false argument is common to such Christian spin-off religions as THE WORLD CHURCH TOMORROW.

Christian buzz words are all the same, but are based on false premises.

In Christ the flesh is pure AS IS HIS HEART. O.T. law prohibits the sacrifice for sin by a creature that is impure in the flesh.
If the flesh of Christ were impure, then His sacrifice would be as meaningless as the death of every other man that lived.

In fact, no objection to the flesh of Christ is ever made in scripture. All the battle we see fought by Jesus was a matter of the heart, even to the last hour of His freedom on earth as a man.
Christ was pure in flesh and victorious in heart. As was the heart so went the flesh that His heart commanded. So He died in obediance of the will as well as the flesh, and He died purely even in the face of vicious attack and public ridicule.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I think you ought to rethink your above statements in light of these scriptures.

Go over your statement slowly and read the below scriptures with care.

Heb 2:14; Heb 4:15; 1 Peter 4:1; Gal 5:24; 6:14; Eph 4:22 1 Peter 3:18; Rom 9:5 Rom 13:14

With your above comment whether knowingly or not, you have made the temptations of Jesus Christ meaningless and ineffectual. If what you say is true, Jesus did not represent mankind, at all! But was a show of suffering and mocked you and I openly. All of Matthew 4 becomes a lie, if you beleive the above red text. You are also saying that Jesus doesnt know what our nature is like and therefore Heb 4:15 is also a lie. His death, the pain and many sufferings have lost thier power...

Thankfully this is not the case!

What kind of "flesh" did Jesus have?

Alethos

I understand those scriptures. I'm not saying anything like you suggest. RJP sums it up pretty well.

Let's say for sake of discussion that Jesus' flesh was exactly as you say, with a potential to sin. The fact still remains that Jesus did not sin. The reason He did not sin was because Jesus is God. As I stated, It is written, God cannot sin.

Where I disagree with you so far, You seem to be implying that Jesus could have sinned. You seem to beleive that Jesus could have chose to sin and disobey God. That's the whole point of discussion.

There was a time when I thought the very same thing. But, knowing the nature of God and his holiness and purity and sinlessness, there is no way Jesus could have sinned. Jesus had no nature in the flesh or heart to sin.

 

[veteran]

What I have 'refuted' is Jesus being made sinful as you are trying to do.

There ya go folks. Can it be any clearer? He's trying to give Jesus a Satanic nature, as I pointed out several days ago.

No, I have clearly confessed that Jesus/God became flesh, but not sinful as you are implying.

Why don't you give us your explanation? I'm sure it will be even more revealing that you are trying to make the Savior Jesus/God sinful.

And when he's done with that, let him try to explain how it was that God transformed the flesh body of our Lord Jesus to the Heavenly, even keeping the marks of His crucifixion!!

 

[veteran]

It is written. God cannot sin. No Jesus could not have sinned. It's written there was no sin found in Him. No, Jesus had no potential to sin. It couldn't have happened. Not even in His flesh. There was a reason Jesus wasn't created from man and woman but directly from God to be born in human flesh.

Absolutely!!!

The reason WHY that is so important to understand, is because ONLY GOD The Saviour can save us!

If Christ Jesus had done even ONE little sin, He would not have been The Saviour. He would have been like all the rest of us that have sinned. THAT is why it was impossible for Christ to have sin when He was born of woman like us.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

 

[Alethos]

Absolutely!!!

The reason WHY that is so important to understand, is because ONLY GOD The Saviour can save us!

If Christ Jesus had done even ONE little sin, He would not have been The Saviour. He would have been like all the rest of us that have sinned. THAT is why it was impossible for Christ to have sin when He was born of woman like us.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

I have asked a question which it appears few are willing to address.

What was the nature of Jesus Christ, was it flesh or something else?

If like Veteran and Ducky you say flesh! But dont really mean Flesh :blink:

Was his flesh different to ours (provide quotes)

Once you come to the conclusion he had the same flesh & blood as we do (Heb 2:14 & Heb 4:15) where death reigns.

Was it possible for him sin?

If not can you see that you are moving away from the Bible into falsehood.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Let's say for sake of discussion that Jesus' flesh was exactly as you say, with a potential to sin. The fact still remains that Jesus did not sin. The reason He did not sin was because Jesus is God. As I stated, It is written, God cannot sin.

Where I disagree with you so far, You seem to be implying that Jesus could have sinned. You seem to beleive that Jesus could have chose to sin and disobey God. That's the whole point of discussion.

Whiteknuckle,

I know I am pressing you hard on this but I need you to understand exactly what you believe and that the Scriptures dont support your understanding.

A few questions?

If Jesus couldnt sin why did he go through temptations?
Why did he come in the flesh?
How could he be killed?
What did he achieve in his sacrifice, nothing?
What did he overcome through his death?

We are told Jesus was tempted! Yes?

Where do temptations come from? James 1:14, 15, 16

BUT God cannot be tempted James 1:13

So far I have from yourself, Ducky, Veteran and Foreigner that you all believe

1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus came in the "flesh" but couldnt sin.
3. Jesus could be tempted BUT,
4 Jesus is God who cannot be tempted :blink:

Makes sense? didnt think so.

Did Jesus have fleshly desires? Where did they come from? Luke 4:2 He became hungry, does God get hungry :unsure:

Alethos

Answer: Flesh, tempted and not God but His Son Heb 4:15 Heb 2:14 2 Cor 5:21

Read Jesus in the wilderness

 

[Alethos]

Dear Alethos

I am delighted with your interest in the bronze serpent, as it was an amazing prophecy of our Lord's crucifixion; it clearly was in His mind continually, [He knew of His forthcoming horrible death from the first], and made plain to us the need to look to Him and believe for salvation. Heb 5:7

As we noted briefly yesterday, The Apostle John picks up on this point, and records Jesus referring to the bronze serpent at least 4 times....John 3:14, 6:40, [looks to the Son and believes, NIV., ESV.,] , John 8:28,[lifted up], John 12:32,33-34 [lifted up].

Jesus certainly knew what He was in for!!!!

It's interesting to check the Hebrew and Greek words used...Num 21:8 'Raah', [to 'behold, see, look,consider', Youngs],

John 6:40, ['theoreo', 'to behold', as also in John 17:24, ['they shall behold my Glory], Mark 12:41, [Jesus beheld...money... into the treasury], Matt 27:55, [many women..beholding afar off], and many more.

'Theoreo clearly indicating a 'seeing' like that of 'Raah', to look and consider. Not just to look.

This is so vital a lesson to us that we must look to the Son of God's providing, and consider Him,....I know this is obvious but I fear we as a body sometimes neglect this aspect of our worship. Anyway, I hope this is of some interest, I love talking about Jesus.

Anonymous (with permission)

Comment: Now here is someone who understands Num 21:9 & John 3:13-15 !!!!