One of the Best Explanations I've seen on Satan's sin.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Cassandra

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2021
2,510
2,872
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?
 
Last edited:

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?

I certainly agree Cassie, he desired high stature, heck even Jesus' apostles had repeated arguments about which is greatest among them. satan desiring the worship that belongs to Jehovah can really be seen in Mat 4:8,9, as well as Jesus' response to him in v10
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?

Lot of misconceptions in his commentary:

1. Revelation 12:7 is not about Satan's original rebellion in the old world when he coveted God's Throne.

2. 1 John 3:8 that the devil sinned from the beginning is more relative than John 10:10.

3. There's no Scripture evidence that Satan rejected God's Plan of creation in Genesis 1:26. That is Guzik's own idea, or someone else's.

4. The descriptions in Hebrews is about comparisons between Christ Jesus born through woman vs. the state of the angels. Clearly Lord Jesus is in a different category than us, even though He was born in the flesh like us. All it's doing is saying Jesus was made a little lower than the angels in the sense of His fleshy birth through woman's womb (for His Ministry), which still did not end His status as GOD The Son (His Spirit). Guzik's spill on that makes me doubt his sincerity in understanding The New Testament Books.

5. Per the Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 parables about Satan, God created Satan as an anointed cherub that covereth. That means it was his job to guard God's Throne. Instead, Satan coveted God's Throne, and wanted to be GOD. That is specifically... what God mocks him about in those Scriptures. In the Ezekiel 31 parable, it shows how Satan was exalted in God's Garden of Eden before he rebelled. Then he fell.

The Revelation 12:7-9 war in Heaven is about the time near the end of this present world. Events given in that Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture include "great tribulation" time events. It mentions the power of Christ comes when Satan and his angels are cast down.

The Revelation 12:7-9 Scripture reveals an important point that let's us know that casting out is for the future tribulation time. It says when that casting out happens, there will be no more place found in heaven for him. Take some time to think about that.

There are only 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word. 1 -- this earthly realm; and 2 -- the Heavenly realm where God and the angels dwell, and also where the abode of the wicked called hell is, which Satan is over.

So when the Scripture says there will be no more place found in heaven for Satan and his angels when that casting out happens, it literally means he is no longer allowed in that Heavenly dimension. Where else can he then go? To OUR dimension, this earthly one. He is coming here, in person, on earth, and the world will see him.

Per the Book of Job, we are shown Satan with his angels appearing in Heaven before God's Throne. So it's a no brainer that happened after... Satan's original rebellion and fall. But at Revelation 12:7-10, Satan is no longer allowed to accuse us before God's Throne because he will no longer be allowed in Heaven by that war with Michael. By that we easily know the Revelation 12:7-9 Scripture is about the last days, and not for back when Satan first rebelled.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: n2thelight

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,050
1,389
113
69
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?
From my notes:
There is a branch of Biblical Theology known as Satanology, which simply means the study of Satan. As you may know the name Satan means "adversary" which is defined as a person, group, or force that opposes.

Firstly, God always knows everything that is knowable so He has always known the who, what, when, where, how, how many, how much, and why of His opposition. From this we can deduce that God knew opposition to Him would be inevitable. It was always a factor God was aware of.

Secondly, it is possible from Scripture to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer held a privileged position in heaven and had a close working relationship with God prior to the Creation of the Universe, but when, as Lucifer, he saw how close Adam and Eve were to God as the Lord in pleasure at their obedience and innocence walked with them in the Garden of Eden, he began to manifest pride and to contest his subservient position which he was now finding unacceptable.

Thirdly, it is possible from Scripture to perceive that the so-called "original sin" was not Adam and Eve's disobedience in eating of the forbidden fruit, but was Satan's opposing of God's Will in deceiving Eve with lies that contradicted God's instruction to them.

For further study it helps to be aware that there are 3 heavens mentioned in the Bible as follows
  1. The Atmospheric Heaven, namely the sky directly above the earth's surface.
  2. The Celestial Heaven, namely outer space which contains the stars.
  3. The Divine Heaven, namely the theographical location of God and His throne.
God can manifest His Presence wherever He wants, so that after Satan rebelled as described, it was still possible for him to inhabit the atmospheric heaven and the celestial heaven and present himself before God on occasions. The war against Michael and his angels takes place in the celestial heaven at which time Satan is cast down to the earth as God's Plan for the Day of Judgment further unfolds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnPaul

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Per the Book of Job, we are shown Satan with his angels appearing in Heaven before God's Throne. So it's a no brainer that happened after... Satan's original rebellion and fall.

There are a lot of Misconceptions caused by preconceived notions and misinformation regarding these topics.
Job happened after Satan original rebellion and fall?
You can go outside the Bible and read information about the fall of angels. But the information differs, which includes a war.
If you have a biblical timestamp as to when the "fall of the angels" occurred ..there is a lot of people that would like to know.

The story of Job has Satan presenting himself before God.....some presume that is before His throne and some say the Holy Court of God....I think that is Middle Ages....as in the King's court. There is really nothing to suggest in Job that there hostilities between God and Satan at that time.
There are only 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word. 1 -- this earthly realm; and 2 -- the Heavenly realm where God and the angels dwell, and also where the abode of the wicked called hell is, which Satan is over.

Since the Israelites did not know of Hell and were not threatened with Hell and still to this day do not believe in a devil or Hell, what they had as a destination was Sheol. Gathered with their fathers there. Their understanding of that was limited because God never explained Sheol to them....but it is a third destination. Nor does the Bible say it was closed so debates around if it is still a possible destination continue. It is never described as a place of punishment and the Jews do not believe in a place of punishment so there are those that believe it was Sheol that Christ was talking about on the cross when He told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise today. Particularly since the scriptures do not suggest that Christ ascended to His Father or went to Heaven before the resurrection.

Then you have the Lake of Fire....something else that is not explained thoroughly. Is the Lake of Fire a destination or a portal of types to Hell? It is certainly a punishment but its functions are not defined. Is it a fourth possible destination? Good discussion?

Per the Book of Job, we are shown Satan with his angels appearing in Heaven before God's Throne. So it's a no brainer that happened after... Satan's original rebellion and fall. But at Revelation 12:7-10, Satan is no longer allowed to accuse us before God's Throne because he will no longer be allowed in Heaven by that war with Michael. By that we easily know the Revelation 12:7-9 Scripture is about the last days, and not for back when Satan first rebelled.

So it is a no brainier that it happened after the fall of angels? Is this biblical? If you enter the book of Job with preconceived notions it is difficult to understand what is happening there. Keep in mind that the Israelites then and Jews today do not consider Satan as a devil. Now the Bible says in Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (And I want to point out that the Bible never defines the sons of God as angels...they are heavenly beings that have the ability to reproduce....that is more or less a different category of heavenly beings.)

Now in the story of Job, there appears to be no animosity between God and Satan. If it did, the Israelites and Jews would have believed that Satan was an enemy of God....a devil. From what we can glean from the bible is that Satan was one of the top angels. (Another misconception is that Lucifer is another name for Satan. The word Lucifer is a Latin word...that St. Jerome placed in the Hebrew text. It had no business being there because the Latin language did not exist during the Old Testament time period. It is one of many insertions into the scriptures of common and or personal beliefs of the translators. Lucifer is Latin for Venus....as in the planet....The actual scriptures are speaking of "dawn of the morning" the morning star....the planet Venus is the morning and evening star....and the scriptures are actually speaking of a King, not Satan. The belief that Lucifer is another name for Satan is one of Christianity's most prolific misconceptions.)

To analyze the rest of Job, there is not anything to suggest that it was unusual for Satan to enter the presence of the Lord, some think it was His throne room or the "Holy Court of God".... a Middle Ages concept of the king's court. There is nothing in Job to suggest that God and Satan were adversaries at the time of this event. From the discription.....at the time....it appears that Satan's job or something that he did, was to roam the earth analyzing the righteousness of Mankind....strange at it seems. And then as the story unfolds, God points out His servant Job...describing him as blameless and upright, even one of a kind and God fearing, turning away from evil. And Satan points out why he is so good. So God and Satan decide to test him....and it goes south from there. And from there we can analyze the rest of the story because there is a lot to analyze.

The bottom line, there is nothing in this story to suggest that it occurs after the fall of the angels....and does not define Satan as the devil. Now when, and how, and why Satan turns against God and he and his angels are driven out of heaven is not clearly defined in the Bible, again the Bible does not tell us the when, the how, and the why of it all. All we know is that by the time of the New Testament period...Satan enters the storyline as a devil and an enemy of God and He and Hell are a threat to Mankind....it is most probably the reason that the term "Saved" was given to the process of Salvation.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There are a lot of Misconceptions caused by preconceived notions and misinformation regarding these topics.

So we should all just listen to devils too that devise falsehoods about these things? they deserve to be heard too? is that your intention? It's better to stay... with God's Word AS WRITTEN, and there's the kicker, is what one says actually the written Word of God or not. So such a vague statement as the above one you made proves absolutely nothing. Sticking with God's Holy Writ does.

Job happened after Satan original rebellion and fall?

Yes, of course. Evidently you haven't understand God's parable about Satan in the Ezekiel 28 chapter. God showed there that He created Satan perfect in his ways, before iniquity was found in him. That means Satan PRIOR to his rebellion was perfect in following God. So do you really... think Satan would be attacking Job prior to Satan's rebellion? And where in Genesis does it even show WHEN it was that Satan first rebelled and drew a third of the angels in rebellion with him?

It's obvious you need a whole lot... of Bible study on this topic, especially in order for you to carry on a Biblically literate conversation about it.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Secondly, it is possible from Scripture to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer held a privileged position in heaven and had a close working relationship with God prior to the Creation of the Universe, but when, as Lucifer, he saw how close Adam and Eve were to God as the Lord in pleasure at their obedience and innocence walked with them in the Garden of Eden, he began to manifest pride and to contest his subservient position which he was now finding unacceptable.

The error with that is with 'adding'... to God's written Word. It wrongly assumes that Satan did not fall until after Adam and Eve were created, when there is no Scripture evidence for that idea.

The Scripture evidence is that by the time of Adam and Eve in God's Garden, Satan was already in his role as the Adversary, and began tempting Eve against God.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So we should all just listen to devils too that devise falsehoods about these things?
I did not say anything about listening to devils?

It's better to stay... with God's Word AS WRITTEN

So in relation to the topic what God's Word, what are you talking about? I assume your standing ready to swallow all the errors of the King James translation. Technically none of the translations are the actual scriptures. Someone translated them....if you are looking at any as a god or that God signed off on anyone of them you are sadly misinformed.

You need to go back to the actual scriptures....the best ya can or do the research to choose the most accurate translation. Personally I do both....go back as far as you can and compare that to the translation.

If you are talking about the word Lucifer....basic sense makes sense. It is known that St. Jerome put that there and it is Latin in a Hebrew text and then they pulled a Latin word into English....mistake number 2.

That means Satan PRIOR to his rebellion was perfect in following God.

What we know about Satan, is in the Bible and that is not that much. I am not talking perfect.

Yes, of course. Evidently you haven't understand God's parable about Satan in the Ezekiel 28 chapter.

There is no agreement that Ezekiel was talking about Satan there. Of course Satan is not referenced by name and it is so confusing that even those that think it is about Satan are not sure if it meant something in the past or the future. It is discussing the King of Tyre but it is still confusing. And people do like to jump on the vague and confusing scriptures because they can make it out to whatever they want. And Again neither the Israelites in the Old Testament nor modern Jews believe in a devil or a Hell.

Now of course hindsight is 20/20 but it is called the Hebrew Bible for a reason.

think Satan would be attacking Job prior to Satan's rebellion?

I don't think Satan attacked Job....God and Satan agreed to test him.

And where in Genesis does it even show WHEN it was that Satan first rebelled and drew a third of the angels in rebellion with him?

I am saying we do not know a when, why, or how Satan became a devil. Do you see Satan's name in Genesis?

And again my point or one of them was that when you have a minimal amount information or vague scriptures, people want to add to it or speculate.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: FHII

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?
It is generally consistent with Scripture, but I do not believe violence is a key element at all. The violence will only come later, just before the reign of the Antichrist (see Revelation 11). God could have totally destroyed Satan and his evil angels right at the start, and sin would not have entered into the world. Instead He has given them a measure of freedom to do their evil deeds, but has also prepared Hell for them. This is what is a mystery.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,074
2,191
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?
I have always taken everything in the scriptures as it has its place in the big picture. If we haven’t figured out the big picture before we tackled the jigsaw puzzle pieces, we will not know where to fit everything in. So here is how I understand the “satan” story....

God already had a large “family” of spirit beings in heaven long before material creation took place. We know this from the book of Job when God was asking him about where he was when creation was taking place and said that “all the sons of God were shouting in applause” when they saw the finished product. (Job 38:4-7) They were spectators to this amazing series of events.

At the end of the 6th creative “day”, God had assessed everything he had made, and pronounced it all “very good”. The humans were placed in the garden of Eden and were told of only one command that they needed to obey, under penalty of death. The future looked amazing. So where does satan enter this picture?

Not many people seem to realise that he was right there in the garden as a guardian angel...a “covering cherub”, which is not some cute little baby with wings, but a powerful spirit creature who is assigned heavy responsibility. How do we know this?

In the book of Ezekiel, God addresses the King of Tyre, but his words are clearly directed at satan because of the traits this king was demonstrating in imitation of the devil. He said....

Ezekiel 28:13-15...
“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 In Eʹden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrysʹo·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. Inthe midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless inyour ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
“Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.


So unless the King of Tyre was “created” and was there as an angel in ‘the garden of Eden’, here we have the reason for satan’s rebellion. He was so magnificent that he desired worship for himself. He was created perfect, but was not content with his lot and wanted more than his God was offering.

Before the creation of man, he could not be a god to any of his fellow angels who were all his equal...so here, with the creation of lower creatures of intelligence, he had his opportunity to be a god them. All he had to do was separate them from their Creator and they were his to do with as he pleased. He planned his moves very carefully after observing the humans closely. He targeted the woman when she was alone and deceived her, but his real target was the man because if he could get Adam to join her.....mission accomplished!

So why did God let that happen? Couldn’t he have simply wiped out those rebels and started again? Yes he could have, but this would only have proven that he was more powerful....satan never challenged God’s power...he challenged his sovereign right to set the limits of the freedom of choice that he had given to all of his intelligent creation. So the issues satan raised in Eden pertained to God’s Sovereignty, and whether his way of ruling his human creation was just and fair? He also claimed that God was a liar, stating that they would not die if they ate the forbidden fruit. So what God allowed was his free willed creatures (in both realms) to make their own choices without his interference, and to see for themselves what would be the consequences of stepping away from Jehovah and his protective laws to live an independent life of their own choosing. By obeying the devil they made him their god and ruler. God permitted this for the sake of the exercise. The outcome of which will settle once and for all God’s Sovereign right to set the rules for his creatures. (Luke 4:5-7; 1 John 5:19)

And here we are....right at the very end of this object lesson, and the majority of mankind are still clueless as to why the world is in such a mess. Satan has indeed “blinded the minds” of those who do not want to believe in the true God or his truth. (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4) They have made gods for themselves out of all sorts of things, but none of them can offer salvation. The devil also created the “weeds” of false Christianity creating more confusion and division. Divide and conquer has always been his favourite tactic.

We already know how it all ends because the Bible tells us, but the question is......where we will stand when that final judgment comes? That is really up to us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Azim

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,557
7,585
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?
Is it not the case that a similar conflict ensues on these boards because of the same objective '....desire to exalt himself above his associates'
 
  • Like
Reactions: Azim and marks

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I have said before, when there is little information on an important topic people will seek out vague scriptures to spin them into a story. Of all the misguided ventures, this is one that I can understand, people have an interest to know and an imagination to make it up. Not everyone can devote the time and money and focus for actual study or research to actually find the answers and some of those answers do not fall into the parameters of Fundamentalism.

Where as a person with an imagination can take a vague or confusing scripture and like an artful crafter can mold that answer to fit into that corral of beliefs. Here Ezekiel 28:11-19 and also Isaiah 14:1-23 although a little confusing in the wandering aspect of it, they do identify the person or nation that is the focus of this group of scriptures. But because how it is described they spin it as a essay on Satan. With there being so little information on Satan these interpretations can further skew the information and understanding that is actually there.

And you can tell in the day, that there was an interest in knowing more about Satan and Hell because there was a considerable amount of early Christian writings on the topic....What caused the disagreement between God and Satan? When did it happen? What were the details of the conflict? What were the results? What are the limitations of Satan? What is Hell like? A lot of this information is outside of the Bible so they are taboo for most Fundamentalists and for the rest of us we have to determine the validity of the information.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,050
1,389
113
69
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
The error with that is with 'adding'... to God's written Word. It wrongly assumes that Satan did not fall until after Adam and Eve were created, when there is no Scripture evidence for that idea.

The Scripture evidence is that by the time of Adam and Eve in God's Garden, Satan was already in his role as the Adversary, and began tempting Eve against God.
As I said it is possible to arrive at the conclusion from Scripture, namely Ezekiel 28:13 where the analogy used to taunt the king of Tyre specifies "the perfect, anointed cherub" as being in Eden prior to being cast down due to iniquity.



Eze 28:11-19 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, (12) "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. (13) You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. (14) "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. (15) You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. (16) "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. (17) "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. (18) "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. (19) All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." ' "

Likewise it is possible to arrive at the conclusion from Scripture that Lucifer, the son of the morning weakened the nations when he deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden, and as Scripture tells us, he did this to usurp God.

Isa 14:12
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

Bob Estey

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2021
4,675
2,483
113
71
Sparks, Nevada
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?
I've come to believe Satan wants us to bow down to him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?
I've never heard this from anyone else, but I've concluded I think Satan's fall was envy, like you've described. That when he realized that the angels were actually created to serve these little mud people, NO! I will! Not them! ME!!! is how I take it.

Much love!
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I did not say anything about listening to devils?

When you refer to going 'outside'... God's Word, that's what you're saying. What I covered about the time of Satan's fall isn't outside of God's Word.

The real problem is that 'some' brethren cannot understand a deeper matter in God's Word unless it was written in direct language for them. That is why some brethren refuse to believe that the parables in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 have anything to do with Satan. Those brethren just cannot understand allegory or parable. Lord Jesus' parables in The Gospel are mostly a mystery still to them also. And it doesn't even matter if one is a Hebrew/Greek scholar, they can still not understand the parables and allegories written in God's Word. Thus appeals to education doesn't really work, though a good education will help. But those still... can make mistakes in bringing the Bible languages into English, like the KJV translators sometimes did (i.e., Acts 12:4, the KJV word "Easter" in reality is the Greek word pascha which means 'passover'. Easter originally was a pagan holiday.). How do we overcome this then?

Simple. It's calling doing what Apostle Paul said to Timonthy in 2 Timothy 2:15... study to show thyself approved of God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

That means just because 'you'... may not yet understand the time when Satan first coveted God's Throne and fell per God's Word, it doesn't mean it's not there in God's Word.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I said it is possible to arrive at the conclusion from Scripture, namely Ezekiel 28:13 where the analogy used to taunt the king of Tyre specifies "the perfect, anointed cherub" as being in Eden prior to being cast down due to iniquity.
....

Likewise it is possible to arrive at the conclusion from Scripture that Lucifer, the son of the morning weakened the nations when he deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden, and as Scripture tells us, he did this to usurp God.

Isa 14:12
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Your error in assumption is that Satan was still a good cherub following God when God made Adam and Even in His Garden of Eden.

The time when Satan ruled over the nations was BEFORE his fall. The ten horns, seven heads, seven crowns of Revelation 12:3-4 was when he first rebelled. That shows Satan had a beast kingdom back then, similar to the one in Revelation 13 which is for the end of this world.

There are three world earth ages written of in God's Word (2 Peter 3):
1. "the world that then was"
2. "the heavens and the earth which are now"
3. "new heavens and a new earth"

That 1st one is when Satan first rebelled and drew a third of the angels with him. God ended... that one at Genesis 1:2. That is actually the event Apostle Peter was pointing to, with the earth destroyed by waters, the earth standing in and out of the water (a ref. to Genesis 1:9). That was not the time of Noah. There has been two world-wide floods on this earth, not just one.

Ezek 31:15
15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
KJV
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is why some brethren refuse to believe that the parables in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 have anything to do with Satan. T

For those that can read....these verses tell you who they are talking about.

If you have a biblical timestamp for the fall of angels....speak up.

And it doesn't even matter if one is a Hebrew/Greek scholar, they can still not understand the parables and allegories written in God's Word.

A lot of people are not out to spin scriptures to their own beliefs.

he KJV word "Easter" in reality is the Greek word pascha which means 'passover'. Easter originally was a pagan holiday.)

pascha a Greek word?.....LOL and I mean lots of laughs. Correcting you would be a full time job.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For those that can read....these verses tell you who they are talking about.

If you have a biblical timestamp for the fall of angels....speak up.

I gave you enough already. Apparently you don't yet understand what I gave you.

A lot of people are not out to spin scriptures to their own beliefs.

No, they are out to spin God's Word according to what preachers have told them.

pascha a Greek word.....LOL and I mean lots of laughs. Correcting you would be a full time job.

That's an unnecessary insult. You, correct me on the KJV translators swapping pascha in the manuscripts for Easter which isn't in the Greek manuscripts? You're being silly.