Biblical Mary

[theefaith]

Now show these women biblically refer to Mary, not just the opinion of Romansim. We know she is a woman but show why we should reject teh context God speaks botrh in and simply accept the woman is Mary. EWve is called woman all throughout, show from Scripture why god in the middle of calling eve woman many times means someone different this one single time in this context.

gen 3:15 cannot be Eve cos God I shall make enmity future not there is enmity now!
And cos Christ is the seed of the woman
He is the savior of the world defeating Satan and Mary is his mother so it must be Mary the ever Virgin mother of God!

Queen Esther
Fair Esther 2:7
Mary all fair Song of Solomon 4:12
Found Favor Esther 2:17
Mary found favor with God Lk 1:30
Esther saves her people interceding with the king
Mary provides the savior of the world!
Lk 2:10-11

2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

2 Tim 2: 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. How much more Mary who was prepared by God thru the immaculate conception! Lk 1:49

A Royal greeting!

Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.
30 And the angel said to her, Dread thou not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Mary is queen in rev 12:1 and heb 4:16
Mother of divine grace

 

[Mungo]

I am inclined to agree with you that such is very difficult, if not impossible, to prove. That being the case, it will be truly sad if it is dogmatically taught.

Tong
R4529

It is a dogma of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox.
There is much evidence for it and it was believed from early Church. Indeed the early "Reformers" believed it. It is only in recent times that some Protestants have rejected doctrines concerning Mary.

 

[theefaith]

At least you don’t deny that there is nowhere written in your Bible that tells you to pray to Mary; and that it is your leaders who told you to do so.

Tong
R4523

So what!

don’t they have the authority of Jesus Christ in the church!
Apostolic authority?


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

What is the Christian rule of faith?
How do we know Christian truths?
Jn 8:32

 

[theefaith]

Praying for is different from praying to.

Tong
R4524

rev 5:8

 

[Mungo]

I am inclined to agree with you that such is very difficult, if not impossible, to prove. That being the case, it will be truly sad if it is dogmatically taught.

Tong
R4529

It is a dogma of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox.
There is much evidence for it and it was believed from early Church. Indeed the early "Reformers" believed it.

 

[theefaith]

I am curious yet again. This time about what you say concerning the apostolic succession your church teach which you mentioned in your post.

Do R.C. church have a successor to each of the 12 apostles (who were directly chosen and sent by Jesus Christ)?

Tong
R4525

there are two line of successors

the successors of Peter in the primacy

and the successors of the apostles or the bishops

they can all be traced back to peter and the apostles yes

 

[theefaith]

I would guess that perhaps you were taught that and were made to believe that by your leaders, or that that is your personal make believe? Any how, either way, that is not taught in scriptures.

How many throne of grace does R.C. church teach you there are? In Hebrews 4:16, how many throne of grace does it say? One or many? Of course, apparently, it does not say there that Mary is the throne of grace.

Tong
R4526

this is not the throne of God
The description for God’s kingly Thone is very different

this refers to the queenly thone of Mary

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Notice verse 15 refers to Christ as priest and it is the merits of His sacrifice that obtains all graces!

Christ is the source of Grace but they are all received thru Mary!

Jn 1:16-17 all grace comes from Christ
And Christ comes thru Mary!

matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us

Lk 1:30 Mary found the favor of our salvation lost by Adam including all graces


Queen Esther

Queen Esther fair est 2:7
Mary all fair Song of Solomon 4:12
Queen Esther found favor with the king est 2:17
Mary found favor with God Lk 1:30
Queen Esther saves her people interceding with the king
Mary provides the savior of the world!
Lk 2:10-11
Queen Esther receives half the kingdom!
Mary receives half the kingdom, Christ retains the kingdom of justice as just judge and Mary is the queen of grace & mercy!
Depicted in genesis as the greater light that rules the day (those living in God’s will) and the lesser light that governs the night (those living in sin) Mary the mother of mercy and refuge of sinners!
Notice the sun is the source of all good and moon only reflects this goodness!
She directs all to Her divine son! Jn 2:5

Lk 1:28 full of grace!
The divine treasury of grace is Mary!
The very throne of divine grace!

Mary merits the graces we need but don’t deserve. Lk 1:30

Mother is the mother of our savior and our salvation! Lk 2:30 matt 1:21

 

[theefaith]

Did not say any of that.

Tong
R4527

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

And all say Hail Mary Lk 1:28

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I think what is controversial is how the many members of R.C. church, from different cultures, times, and places, relates to Mary. Some treat and address her as though she is deity. Some consciously, some not.

I think that is a perception of some Protestants but it is an incorrect perception

Not only perception. I have met a lot of R.C. church members who have Mary for an idol. They pray to her as though she is God. They even pray to her on their knees and kissing her statue. Some even call her to appear to them, to heal their sickness, cry out to her to save them. That’s sad really to see. I admire their zealousness and devotion. They need to be taught that they may have the knowledge about the person of Mary.

Tong2020 said: ↑
And this error spread like fire within the R.C. church, even long ago, that some do it because of tradition. Many religious R.C. church members are very zealous when it comes to Mary, but not according to knowledge. And this may as well be true concerning the dead saints.

There is no tradition or practice to treat Mary as a deity. You err to suggest it.

I am referring to those who treat Mary as though she was Deity for they were either not taught about the person of Mary. And they pass that on to their children, and their children to their children. That is by tradition. This I learned from catholics that I have talked with. When asked what they understand that Mary is the Mother of God, they say that Mary is also Deity, her being the Mother of God. Of course they apparently did not learn that from their parish priest, right? It was most likely their own make believe. I asked them how many times do you pray to Mary? How many times do you pray to the Father? They say they don’t count, but that they pray the rosary everyday. That would be 10 Hail Mary and 1 Our Father? I don’t know.

Tong2020 said: ↑
On a different note, may I ask what is the R.C. teaching. Are church members allowed to pray directly to God? Are they taught to pray directly to God? Are they encourage to pray directly to God?

Of course Catholics pray to God. Most prayers are to God.
The Mass is the pinnacle of Catholic worship of God.
All the prayers in the Mass are directed to God.
I think the one prayer common to most (if not all) liturgies is the "Our Father".

Thank you for the info.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Can a church member confess his sins directly to God and ask for forgiveness through Jesus Christ and could rest assured that they were forgiven?

That is possible, but the Church encourages sacramental confession. This is what the Catechism says:
"Individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession." There are profound reasons for this. Christ is at work in each of the sacraments. He personally addresses every sinner: "My son, your sins are forgiven."[MK 2:5]He is the physician tending each one of the sick who need him to cure them [Mk 2:17]. He raises them up and reintegrates them into fraternal communion. Personal confession is thus the form most expressive of reconciliation with God and with the Church.

What do you mean that it is possible? Are there situations when it is not possible?

Does it mean that they would be better of confessing their sins to the priest and not directly to God? Does it mean that their forgiveness is more sure when they confess to the priests than when they confess and ask for forgiveness directly to God in the name of Jesus Christ?

Tong
R4551

 

[Tong2020]

But at least you don’t deny that in scriptures, what is found is Mary as the female slave of the Lord. Now, I would like to talk about “Mother of God”.

Mother of God.

I am curious, what is a Mother by R.Catholic church definition?

I am pretty sure that the leaders of the R.C. church taught you who God is. But may I ask, did they teach that God is eternal; that God had no beginning and no end; that God had no mother and no father?

Mary, the Mother of God.

I am curious also of this: Do the R.C. church teach that Mary is the Mother of God ~ the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit? Or is she only the Mother of Jesus, the Son?

good points

Mary is not the mother (or source) of the divine nature.
Mary is not the mother of the father.
Mary is not the mother of the Holy Spirit.

Mary is the mother of God Lk 1:43

because Jesus Christ is God and Mary is His mother.
The mother of His entire person not only His body & blood which came from Her.
But of His person!

Mother of God
Council Of Ephesus – 431 A.D.

If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.

Lk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

You rightly pointed out that Jesus Christ is God. In other words, Jesus is Deity. Is Mary, as the Mother of God then, the Mother of Jesus in His Deity? Or is she just the Mother of Jesus in His humanity?

<<<Mary is not the mother (or source) of the divine nature.
Mary is not the mother of the father.
Mary is not the mother of the Holy Spirit.>>>

But the Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Don’t you think that the title “Mother of God” opens up an occasion to mistake that Mary is the Mother of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, for God is a trinity?

Finally, you rightly pointed out that Jesus Christ is God. Now don’t you believe that God is eternal; that God has no beginning and no end; has no mother nor father?

Tong
R4552

 

[theefaith]

I am inclined to agree with you that such is very difficult, if not impossible, to prove. That being the case, it will be truly sad if it is dogmatically taught.

Nice to see you too sis!

Tong
R4529

Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649) with the jurisdictional authority of Peter and the apostles in holy council! Matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20 bound on earth bound in heaven!

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (only Jesus is savior)

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!

Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

The Bible says Joseph a just and therefore a chaste man, it does not say he has gone into Mary anywhere in scripture, 2 Sam 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him. Never says this about a Joseph, for He was full of fear and reverence for Her immaculate purity and holiness! Especially after hearing from an angel that her child was of the Holy Spirit!



Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

Only God can be born of a Virgin-mother!

 

[theefaith]

Cont.

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!

 

[theefaith]

Mary’s Catholic dogmas

102. Mary is truly the Mother of God.
103. Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin.
104. Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man.
105. Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity.
106. Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin.
107. Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.
108. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

 

[Tong2020]

It is a dogma of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox.
There is much evidence for it and it was believed from early Church. Indeed the early "Reformers" believed it. It is only in recent times that some Protestants have rejected doctrines concerning Mary.

I am curious, what are those “much evidence” that Mary remained virginal through out her entire life and that her and Joseph never consummated their marriage?

Tong
R4553

 

[Mungo]

Not only perception. I have met a lot of R.C. church members who have Mary for an idol. They pray to her as though she is God. They even pray to her on their knees and kissing her statue. Some even call her to appear to them, to heal their sickness, cry out to her to save them. That’s sad really to see. I admire their zealousness and devotion. They need to be taught that they may have the knowledge about the person of Mary.

They aren't treating Mary as deity.
That is your false perception
God judges the hearts.
Do you see into their hearts?
You make false judgements from appearances and poor understanding

I am referring to those who treat Mary as though she was Deity for they were either not taught about the person of Mary. And they pass that on to their children, and their children to their children. That is by tradition. This I learned from catholics that I have talked with. When asked what they understand that Mary is the Mother of God, they say that Mary is also Deity, her being the Mother of God. Of course they apparently did not learn that from their parish priest, right? It was most likely their own make believe. I asked them how many times do you pray to Mary? How many times do you pray to the Father? They say they don’t count, but that they pray the rosary everyday. That would be 10 Hail Mary and 1 Our Father? I don’t know.

They don't teat Mary as deity.
That is your false perception.
God judges the hearts.
Do you see into their hearts?
You make false judgements from appearances and poor understanding.

As to that silly count of 10 hail Mary's to 1 our Father, that is claim that is trivial, mathematically incorrect, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of Catholicism.

Mathematics:
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women…” Not a prayer but a statements from scripture. However if you think that calling Mary, ‘blessed among women’ is a prayer to her, then the next statement “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus’ is a prayer to God.

So far then 50:50 Mary and God.

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death, Amen”. Since protestants refuse the accept that “praying to Mary” is only asking her for her prayers, then by their own logic asking her for her prayers is not “praying to Mary”.

Before the 10 Hail Marys there is an Our Father - a prayer to God

After the 10 Hail Marys there is the “Glory be…”
“Glory be to the Father,” – a prayer of praise to God the Father
“and to the Son,” – a prayer of praise to God the Son
“and to the Holy Spirit…” – a prayer of praise to God the Holy Spirit.
Thus we have 4 prayers to God and none to Mary.

Overall then, depending on how you count the “blesseds” of the Hail Mary there are more prayers to God than to Mary in the Rosary.

The primary prayers of the Catholic Church are Liturgical – for example the Mass and the Divine Office. There you will not find prayers to Mary, only to God.

For example in Morning and Evening prayer (in the Divine Office) we say one Our Father and three “Glory be..” – one after each psalm/canticle.

What do you mean that it is possible? Are there situations when it is not possible?
Possible as opposed to recommended.

Does it mean that they would be better of confessing their sins to the priest and not directly to God? Does it mean that their forgiveness is more sure when they confess to the priests than when they confess and ask for forgiveness directly to God in the name of Jesus Christ?

Tong
R4551

In Sacramental Confession the priest is acting in persona Christi - in the person of Christ. In a very real sense we are confessing to Christ and receiving absolution from Christ. We hear the forgiveness of Christ when the priest gives absolution.
Also Catholics belong to a Church not just individuals. Our sins damage the Church as well as being an offence to God. Therefore in Sacramental Confession we are reconciled first to God, but also the the Church.

 

[theefaith]

You rightly pointed out that Jesus Christ is God. In other words, Jesus is Deity. Is Mary, as the Mother of God then, the Mother of Jesus in His Deity? Or is she just the Mother of Jesus in His humanity?

(mother of His humanity but also of His person who is divine
But Mary is not divine only created by God without sin in virtue of Her divine sins merits
Jesus is also Mary’s savior Lk 1:47
But there are two ways to save
1) to forgive sin
2) to preserve us from sin
Christ does both for us as Christians he forgives our sins and then prevents us from sinning by his grace he preserves us and this He did for his mother created and preserved from all sin from the first moment of her immaculate conception in her mothers womb.)

<<<Mary is not the mother (or source) of the divine nature.
Mary is not the mother of the father.
Mary is not the mother of the Holy Spirit.>>>

But the Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Don’t you think that the title “Mother of God” opens up an occasion to mistake that Mary is the Mother of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, for God is a trinity?

(There are many misunderstandings in regard to Christian doctrine)

Finally, you rightly pointed out that Jesus Christ is God. Now don’t you believe that God is eternal; that God has no beginning and no end; has no mother nor father?

(yes in his divinity but Jesus is also fully man and is created by the HS with Mary he received his bony and blood from her matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.)


Tong
R4552

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
At least you don’t deny that there is nowhere written in your Bible that tells you to pray to Mary; and that it is your leaders who told you to do so.

So what!

don’t they have the authority of Jesus Christ in the church!
Apostolic authority?


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

What is the Christian rule of faith?
How do we know Christian truths?
Jn 8:32

<<<So what!>>>

Just pointing out that there is nowhere written in your Bible that tells you to pray to Mary. Is there anything wrong with that?

<<<don’t they have the authority of Jesus Christ in the church!
Apostolic authority?>>>

For the sake of argument, granting that they do, such authority is not to teach what was not there in scriptures or taught by the apostles of Christ.

This comes to mind. And I think it is wise to learn from mistakes of the past. In days past before Christ, the Levite priests were given the authority to teach the people about God and His words that were written in scriptures. Do you know what happened? What they did? What had become of the people of God?

Tong
R4554

 

[Mungo]

I am curious, what are those “much evidence” that Mary remained virginal through out her entire life and that her and Joseph never consummated their marriage?

Tong
R4553

See theefaith's post above #1571. Or do you want my version?

 

[theefaith]

I am curious, what are those “much evidence” that Mary remained virginal through out her entire life and that her and Joseph never consummated their marriage?

Tong
R4553

see post 1571-1573

 

[Mungo]

For the sake of argument, granting that they do, such authority is not to teach what was not there in scriptures or taught by the apostles of Christ.
Tong
R4554

Scripture alone is false, man made, unbiblical doctrine