No Hell, No Devil = Christian Socialism

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Robbie

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I don't see the principle of becoming One as the part that's bad... God also wants us to become One... so if we start to see that as evil we could end up being like, "No God... being one is wrong" when He's the one willing it to be so. It's who we become One with that can be the problem... The Kingdom principle is pretty much the same as living in our parents house... even though nothing belongs to us because everything belongs to our parents everything belongs to us in the sense that we're free to live and use what belongs to our parents... we need to realize even though everything is ours it's only ours because the King lets us use what's His... the only problem is when satan or man tried to set themselves up as King of the house... when that throne belongs to God alone...
 

Alethos

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In Peter Christ went to preach to the spirits in prison. Peter also mentions Tartaros which is the prison for the fallen angles
Why would he preach to them if they were to be destroyed in hell and awaiting punishment?

That teaching of Lucifer is a mere man who shall be cast out of his grave and trodden under foot.
Sheol or the grave is just that. A burial place under the soil.

The scripture should not contradict should they?
If they do then maybe our understanding is incorrect.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.



Christ taught in parables. Parables are exaggerated stories to illustrate a moral point. Its is a type of analogy.
Again if Hellfire were so important then more NT writers would have been mentioning it.

Can people that die sin be saved ?
Not according to many church doctrines but according to scriptures? yes


Ephraim and his people had been sacrificing their children to BAAL in the Hinnom Valley(Gehenna Known as hell by some)
YHWH said I never told them to burn their children in Hinnom(hell) nor did it enter my mind.
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Again, Yhwh says he never thought of burning any sons and daughters in Hinnom(HELL).
No it never came to his mind. So eternal torment in HELL is not of Yhwh but of men.

Hallelujah!


Hos 13:1 When Ephraim spake trembling, he exalted himself in Israel; but when he offended in Baal, he died.
Ephraim set up ordinances to BAAL and he died and in his sins

Hos 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. .
Hos 13:12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.


Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave(called Hell elsewhere); I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
Yhwh will make plague death? make ill ?

He will destroy the Grave. And the grave wont have any repentance.,
Death will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire exist here on Earth. Its the Dead Sea and the valley of Gehenna runs into the Lake of Fire.


Nothing about destroying Ephraim and his sinful people but a Ransom to save them from the grave.

The story in Luke is a parable and Lazerus was a relative of Abraham. That is what it was meant to be in his boosom. He was close to Abraham.
The story is in the old testament. Google it
They are many holes in the parable being realistic, which is certainly wasn't.
A spirit that could be in Hell if it were true would not have fleshly fingers that burn.


Shlama w'burkate
Peace & Blessings


Some good points above.

"Was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are" The analogy is taken from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is set forth as "an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). The fire of God's judgment consumed those cities without remedy (Lam 4:6), and now the devil (sin and death) and its associates will be consumed in like manner. In Rev 20:14 the lake of fire is clearly defined as death.
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Veteran, in Luke 16:22-26 are the words Heaven or Soul mentioned? Didnt think so...

The passage speaks about bodies not souls. e.g., eyes, bosom (Luke 16:23) tip of finger and tongue (Luke 16:24).

Souls are said to be immaterial (the material body being left in the grave), how then could Lazarus (if really a soul) be carried by angels? (Luke 16:22).

The passage states that there was a great gulf fixed between Abraham and the rich man, yet they could both see and converse with each other (Luke 16:26). Is the great gulf to be taken literally?

Is heaven literally a place where conversations can be carried on between those enjoying bliss and those agonizing and being tortured in hell?

How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward. (Heb 11:8, 13, 39, 40).

Again Veteran, you have not thought these Scriptures through, but wrested them with mystical fantisies of the suprnatural.

Why is it Veteran everywhere I read your posts I am having to teach basic Bible teachings.

Here is what the Master explained very simply about parables.

". . . Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand. . . " (Mark 4:11,12).

"But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." (Mark 4:34).

This is another example likened to to Nub 21:9 & John 3:13-15 where force error into he Word and I am sorry it is clear to all it doesnt fit.

Here are some absurdities for you to consider:
Can there exist a "great chasm" that is so great that no one can pass across it, and yet the inhabitants on both sides are able to carry on a conversation with each other without difficulty?


If you were being tormented in flames of fire, as the rich man was, would you request only a "drop of water" to quench your agony? Would not a jug or jar, or even a handful of water be more logical?


Do you believe that the rich man was so stupid as to expect righteous Lazarus to leave the comfort of "Abraham's bosom" and spend time visiting the rich man in flames of fire?

Have you taken the time to study these passages with an open mind, uninhibited from false theology?

TheWaris1 could teach you alot about the One True God of Israel and his beloved Son Yehoshua.

Alethos
 

veteran

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Capitalism and Communism are not the polar opposites Satan would have you believe. The formation of capital through the establishment of legal collectives granted legal rights and protection by the state greater than is granted to individuals makes Capitalism a form of economic collectivism.

Economic collectives will devour one another until only one remains and it finally merges with the government and we have de-facto Communism.

Satan has been moving his chess pieces for centuries. He needs to collectivize the whole world so that he can leverage his influence.


Western Capitalism (free enterprise) definitely IS a polar opposite of Communism and Socialism.

True Western Capitalism under a free enterprise system does not exist like it used to. Socialism is taking it over. Must go back in earlier history to find examples of true Western Capitalism.

When the State controls the business enterprise, AND EVEN GETS INVOLVED DIRECTLY IN BUSINESS, that is a component of a SOCIALIST STATE, not a Capitalist State. Collectivism is a property of Socialism and Communism, not free market Capitalism.


 

veteran

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I don't understand what Hell or Satan has to do with Socialism? The only false church I see that's disguised as the body of christ is based on capitalism... the truth of God is freely you received... freely you give...


Firstly, God's Word SUPPORTS free market Capitalism. Don't let the Socialists confuse you with Left-leaning definitions of Capitalism. It is not a bad word like they make it out to be. They're lying to you about its real meaning.

Apostle Paul said if a man won't work, let him not eat (2 Thess.3:10). That's free enterprise thinking; each has the NEED to work, and those who work hard are to reap reward for their hard work. That is God's Way.

But under a SOCIALIST collectivism, you are NOT rewarded for working harder, you are Penalized by having your fruits of hard labor TAKEN FROM YOU and given to someone else who doesn't work as hard. RESULT = little incentive.

Those who steal and call it Capitalism lie. Those who penalize the worker to steal the fruits of his labour are not Capitalists, they're Socialists.

Isa 65:21-23
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
(KJV)


What has all this got to do with those who refuse to believe hell and Satan exist per God's Word?

Simple. They want THIS WORLD NOW to be a Heaven on earth of THEIR OWN making, without Christ. They USE Christ, invoke His Name and do as many song and dance routines that you would need to believe they follow Christ. But they are not of GOD and His Christ; they bluff in order to trick and fool the deceived into handing over their wealth to them. That is what today's Internationalist movement towards a one world government is about.

It's aim is to USE Christianity, or any religon as much as possible to create their OWN UTOPIA here on earth, today, now, OF THE FLESH. They worship the flesh; to them there is NO OTHER EXISTENCE BUT THE FLESH AND THIS PRESENT WORLD. They not only refuse to believe that hell and Satan is real; they don't believe Christ or God is anything real either. FLESH ONLY IS REAL TO THEM, AND OF COURSE OTHER PEOPLE'S WEALTH THEY CAN STEAL.



 

TheWarIs1

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Hell is a man made concept.


To take from people and give to the nonworking peoples is called Liberalism and socialism.
You're correct that the sciprture does not support this.

The scripture never supported everyone being "equal'. the promises did give land inheritance to 12 tribes but not really in equal portions.
Manesseh for example pushed for a larger portion and got it and they had come from a split
Levittes got no land to farm. How is this socialism?


I dont see how it can be said the church or the kingdom will be like socialism
I don't see anywhere that the laws of the people regulated everyones income or took from the haves and gave to the have nots.

yes the scripture does support helping the poor and needy and if people forgot the poor they brought bad things upon themselves.


Certainly the tithes issue isn't being used to make socialist claims?
The tithes was not about money or income but about feeding the Levitte priest who had no land to work and were suppose to do the priestly duties.

The only people of the scripture that had to tithe were those that farmed crops/produce or cattle.,

fishermen, carpenters, salesmen, lumberjacks, garbage dump tenders etc. did not have to tithe anything ever.
Churches today tell falsehoods about the tithes as well as other things.
 

Foreigner

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"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." -- Jesus



"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" -- Jesus



"Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." -- Jesus



“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." -- Jesus
 

timf

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Western Capitalism (free enterprise) definitely IS a polar opposite of Communism and Socialism.

Capitalism is not free enterprise. The formation of a joint stock corporation is a risky proposition for a shareholder who can be held responsible for the action of the corporation. Receiving legal protection against prosecution for the acts of the corporation gives the entity of a corporation an advantage over a person or family business.

The establishment and cultivation of joint stock corporations is the vehicle for taking free enterprise captive to communism.

Think of the number of businesses that have been put out of business by Walmart. They may claim efficiencies of scale or being more competitive, but in fact their success is a direct result of the legal advantage of immunity from legal responsibility for the investors and the exploitation of Chinese slaves.

Profiting from the exploitation of other races is the hallmark of the worst aspects of colonialism and slave trading. Just as the plantation slave owner got rich driving down the prices of agricultural products and putting his non-slave owning neighbors out of business, those corporations making use of illegal labor and importing the products of foreign slave labor are polluting our country.

Corporations are the vultures of free enterprise. They do not innovate but buy up businesses on which they feed until they manage to run them into the ground whereupon they will buy up another business.

Once Americans are willing to live 35 to a room like illegals or are willing to work for $1.00 a day like slaves in China, we will have become competitive enough for corporations to bring some of our manufacturing jobs back to this country.

Free enterprise has value. Even the Communist Chinese were able to recognize this in time to stop their flavor of communism from sliding down the same path as the Soviet Union. However, capitalism is not the same thing as free enterprise.
 

veteran

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Capitalism is not free enterprise. The formation of a joint stock corporation is a risky proposition for a shareholder who can be held responsible for the action of the corporation. Receiving legal protection against prosecution for the acts of the corporation gives the entity of a corporation an advantage over a person or family business.

Capitalism is about a free market, competition being allowed between businesses. A family business is able to file for a corporate charter in their state of operation, and enjoy the same privledges. But under a Socialist controlled market economy, the State controls the operation of corporations, AND determines who can even start a business to compete with them and their scope of operations, a.k.a., Communist Socialism.


The establishment and cultivation of joint stock corporations is the vehicle for taking free enterprise captive to communism.

Think of the number of businesses that have been put out of business by Walmart. They may claim efficiencies of scale or being more competitive, but in fact their success is a direct result of the legal advantage of immunity from legal responsibility for the investors and the exploitation of Chinese slaves.

Walmart started like any other business in the U.S. It was started by Sam Walton who used the concept of American-made products making up the majority of its sold products. After he died, the stockholders left that concept (slowly), and took advantage of markets that previous U.S. administrations and Congress allowed through GATT, NAFTA, and free trade agreements with Red China. That especially happenned on Bill Clinton's watch, heck, he even pushed giving control of the Panama Canal to a front company owned and controlled by the Red Chinese government.

America's argument with its economic progblems should be with its leaders that allowed those type of socialist agenda workings, not with the idea of capitalism itself. It's all to fit the globalist's plans for a one world government; got to build up the weaker economies while bringing ours down to equalize with poorer nations, they think. The plan is to join East and West together. It's not well recognized, but the truth is that socialists in the West have been the ones propping up eastern Communism and Socialism all along. The Communist nations would have starved without Western aid. But of course, one would have to quit depending on sources like Wikipedia to discover that. One could start with FDR's Lend-Lease program of the 1940's.


Profiting from the exploitation of other races is the hallmark of the worst aspects of colonialism and slave trading. Just as the plantation slave owner got rich driving down the prices of agricultural products and putting his non-slave owning neighbors out of business, those corporations making use of illegal labor and importing the products of foreign slave labor are polluting our country.

Since when did Communist Socialism NOT make slaves of its own citizens? Write your congressmen and senators; tell them to repeal the GATT and NAFTA agendas. If enough of us write they'll have to listen. If the West would stop supporting the economies of Communist nations, you'd think its leaders would soon cave in and allow its people to vote for a democratic style government and end Communism altogether. But how many of their own people would those Communist leaders allow to die before they would budge? Their Perestroika move of 'Democratization' was a diplomatic and tactical strategy, a way for the Communist Party to stay in government power in those nations while allowing their economies to merge Socialism with Capitalism. It's because their ultimate plan is to merge East with West anyway. That's what their one world government plans have always been about. What you're seeing is 'their' Socialist ideology being brought West to merge with western Capitalism.


Corporations are the vultures of free enterprise. They do not innovate but buy up businesses on which they feed until they manage to run them into the ground whereupon they will buy up another business.

You're talking about corporate raidership. I don't agree with a corporation being allowed to buy up businesses or property against the will of its owners. Most often, it's corrupt city and county officials that are responsible for allowing that. But a business buying another business that agrees, that's free enterprise. If a worker for a company doesn't like it because they might lose their job in the bought company, they can start their own company if they like. Owners of a business are not obligated to become legal guardians of its employees. Expecting a business to always have a job and work for us is a child's mentality treating the owners as if they were parents. Ludicrous.


Once Americans are willing to live 35 to a room like illegals or are willing to work for $1.00 a day like slaves in China, we will have become competitive enough for corporations to bring some of our manufacturing jobs back to this country.

GATT and NAFTA again. Those in power don't like competition. We are not going to see most of our manufacturing base return. Our leaders opened it up to poorer nations to build them up in prep for their one world government. Our economy being set back is being done on purpose. It didn't happen by chance. That's why it's important to look farther than just dollars and cents.


Free enterprise has value. Even the Communist Chinese were able to recognize this in time to stop their flavor of communism from sliding down the same path as the Soviet Union. However, capitalism is not the same thing as free enterprise.

Soviet Communism and Chinese Communism are the same thing, both work together still today, as they have in the past. The FBI agent Cleon Skousen revealed that the U.S. Lend-lease program that sent aid to the Soviets wound up in part to Communist China. Per Golitsyn in his 1984 work New Lies For Old, the supposed fall of the Soviet system was planned in 1958, part of their long-range strategy against the West. I believe it. Since the Cold War ended, the West has been flooded with more Communist-Socialist ideology than it was ever exposed to previously. The West has been down-building their militaries while Russia and Communist China have been busy building their's back up.

Capitalism means a free market. It cannot be compared to a socialist system which is anti-free market.
 

Duckybill

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Speaking of a little lie. It would be a good idea to research the word 'Hell' and you should discover how it has become a false teaching echoed by many Christian, including myself for many years of following blind guides.

Now Satan means Adversary and I do believe that is what he was intended to be and he is very real.
I think I've met him a few too many times and I know some of his followers for sure..

That Erie dark presence is unmistakable.


Hell comes from the Saxon word "Hellan" And means to Cover" and was used to mean ground.
Old english farmers used to say "i''m gonna bury my tators in hell.

Any scripture you read that has the word HELL in it is a mistranslation of another word.
One can certainly play word games with 'Hell'. The fact is that eternal punishment in the fire is a clear NT doctrine.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


There will be MANY in the eternal fire who do not believe in the eternal fire. Denying Hell doesn't save one from Hell.

Matthew 18:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
 

Alethos

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One can certainly play word games with 'Hell'. The fact is that eternal punishment in the fire is a clear NT doctrine.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


There will be MANY in the eternal fire who do not believe in the eternal fire. Denying Hell doesn't save one from Hell.


Mat 25:41

Ducky, don’t you know those who are rejected at the judgment will be as a result of them ignoring the simple material needs of their brethren, and by doing so ignored Christ (Mat 25:41-45)

But what of eternal fire? Eternal? Maybe you would like to compare Jud 1:7 with Luke 17:29. The fire that destroyed Sodom was "eternal" in its effect, but not in its working, compare also Mat 13:42; Mark 9:43,44,45,46,47,48,49. So this lead to a Bible truth that the punishment for the wicked is death: Rom 5:12; 6:23; Rev 20:14. But the righteous will never truly die: Luke 20:36; Hos 13:14; Rev 21:4; Rom 6:9; Isa 25:8.

And what about the angels that you so presumably quote. Well they are not immortal "fallen angels" of God, but mortal "messengers" of the wicked - whoever that might be in this context - a slanderer and false accuser…but sorry no fallen angel here either or a place of torment…just the silence of the grave! Psa 115:17

I have listed below the context just in case you didn’t understand Matt 25:41-43.

Maybe you could learn of from the below?

"I was hungry, and you formed a humanities group to discuss my hunger.

"I was imprisoned, and you crept off to your chapel and prayed for my release.

"I was naked, and in your mind you debate the morality of my appearance.

"I was sick, and you knelt and thanked God for your health.

"I was homeless, and you preached to me of the spiritual shelter of the love of God.

"I was lonely, and you left me alone to pray for me.

"You seem so holy, so close to God... but I am still very hungry and lonely and cold" (Author unknown)

And you believe God will send those wicked people to burn eternally in some fiery place all because they didn’t offer one of his children something to eat!

Ducky, you are yet to find the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Jesus Christ.

Alethos


 

Alethos

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One can certainly play word games with 'Hell'. The fact is that eternal punishment in the fire is a clear NT doctrine.

Matthew 18:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Ducky,

Do you think Jesus expects you to cut off your hand and foot if it offends?

Jesus is amplifying the seriousness of sin as he does with “death” i.e everlasting fire!

However, if you believe we should cut our limbs off when they offend, I will allow you to go first, just to prove the everlasting fire is also literal. :rolleyes:

Alethos

ps. I hope you get the point!
 

TheWarIs1

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One can certainly play word games with 'Hell'. The fact is that eternal punishment in the fire is a clear NT doctrine.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


There will be MANY in the eternal fire who do not believe in the eternal fire. Denying Hell doesn't save one from Hell.

Matthew 18:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
You may be playing some sort of game. I'm not playing.
You're simply defending what you've been taught but you don't really know why it is and from where is comes from. Oh I was a lot like you at one time..
You are just going by a translation of a translation of the original text.
You are trusting a group of men who didn't speak the other languages well to determine what is true.
Just because King James men wrote it as everlasting or eternal does not make it so.
Just because some say KJV is the inspired word of God and the perfect English translation does not make it so either.


Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end." Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."
The above word definitions do not agree with each other. An age is not everlasting but about a thousands years.
There are about 7 ages from Adam til now it is believed. Remember the song "Rock of Ages"?
Christ is known as the Rock of the ages. That is not an eternity.

Eternal or ever lasting came from the Greek word Aionios
Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says, "Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration."

The Complete Works of Falvius Josephus. Josephus obviously did not consider anionios to be "everlasting," seeing that he uses the word to represent the period of time between the giving of the law of Moses and that of his own writing [clearly not an eternity]. He also assigns aionios to the period of imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans [clearly he was not imprisoned for an eternity], and also for the period during which Herod’s temple stood [since Herod’s temple was not even standing at the time Josephus wrote, it too proves that Josephus did not mean ‘eternity’ when he wrote ‘aionios’].

Saint Gregory of Nyssa speaks of anionios diastema, "an eonian interval." How many intervals do you know of that are "endless" or "eternal?"

Saint Chrysostum, in his homily on Eph. 2:1-3, says that, "Satan’s kingdom is aeonian; that is, it will cease with the present world."

Saint Justin Martyr, in the Apol. (p. 57), used the word aionios repeadedly: aionion kolasin…all ouchi chiliontaete periodon, "eonian chastening but a period, not a thousand years," or as some translate this clause "but a period of a thousand years only." Hence, to Justin Martyr, aionios was certainly not "endless."

Believing in a translation of a translation that may have deviated from the original written word does not make it true either.

Hell was a Saxon word never spoken by Christ. So why push the Hellfire doctrine if Christ never said the word?
Because that nice preacher man you know tells you so? Christ used the word Gehenna which was a valley heading south of the city of David and east towards the Lake of Fire or Dead Sea.
That's a whole different concept huh?
Why not tell people they are going to burn in the Gehenna Valley forever or for an age even?

I can tell you right now and this very moment that there is no eternal fire burning in the Gehenna Valley. No all is calm and it's beautiful there now.
The worms still living there but the fires have all died out now.
It was once a smoldering garbage dump where the fires continued day and night.



The words that most of our Bibles have translated "eternal", "forever", and "everlasting" are: "aion" (#165) and the adjective "aionios" (# 166).
Both mean an age, or age-time, or age during . the duration of which is not specified and are used with those definitions in all other writings in Greek including Josephus, Philo, Plato, etc.
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Same word Aion used as Ages and it couldn't be used as Forever, properly anyway..
Several other times it is used as Age.


We all need to become Bereans and Prove ALL things.
We are to study to show ourselves approved.
People need to stop being lazy and just stating what they believe based on what they've been taught for it gives us all a bad name among the non-beleivers.


Rom 5:6 ..... Messiah died for the ungodly:


Shlama w'burkate

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Foreigner

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I have heard people here try to dispell the idea of "eternal" before.


I am always curious as to why they think that God never mentions the great redemption of those he condemns as he does in Matt 25:42 when he says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"


One would think this point would be important enough to mention specifically, no?


Or in Matt 12:42 where it says, "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."


Funny isn't it that it isn't presented as a temporary status and that they will eventually be redeemed?


Same for Rev. 14:11 when he says, "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."


Apparently the "no rest day or night" has an end date on it.


Who knew?
 

Duckybill

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Mat 25:41

Ducky, don’t you know those who are rejected at the judgment will be as a result of them ignoring the simple material needs of their brethren, and by doing so ignored Christ (Mat 25:41-45)

But what of eternal fire? Eternal? Maybe you would like to compare Jud 1:7 with Luke 17:29. The fire that destroyed Sodom was "eternal" in its effect, but not in its working, compare also Mat 13:42; Mark 9:43,44,45,46,47,48,49. So this lead to a Bible truth that the punishment for the wicked is death: Rom 5:12; 6:23; Rev 20:14. But the righteous will never truly die: Luke 20:36; Hos 13:14; Rev 21:4; Rom 6:9; Isa 25:8.

And what about the angels that you so presumably quote. Well they are not immortal "fallen angels" of God, but mortal "messengers" of the wicked - whoever that might be in this context - a slanderer and false accuser…but sorry no fallen angel here either or a place of torment…just the silence of the grave! Psa 115:17

I have listed below the context just in case you didn’t understand Matt 25:41-43.

Maybe you could learn of from the below?

"I was hungry, and you formed a humanities group to discuss my hunger.

"I was imprisoned, and you crept off to your chapel and prayed for my release.

"I was naked, and in your mind you debate the morality of my appearance.

"I was sick, and you knelt and thanked God for your health.

"I was homeless, and you preached to me of the spiritual shelter of the love of God.

"I was lonely, and you left me alone to pray for me.

"You seem so holy, so close to God... but I am still very hungry and lonely and cold" (Author unknown)

And you believe God will send those wicked people to burn eternally in some fiery place all because they didn’t offer one of his children something to eat!

Ducky, you are yet to find the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Jesus Christ.

You're the one who denies Jesus/God, not me.

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.




Do you think Jesus expects you to cut off your hand and foot if it offends?

No because that wouldn't save you. He was explaining the awfulness of eternity in the "everlasting fire".

Matthew 18:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.


Jesus is amplifying the seriousness of sin as he does with “death” i.e everlasting fire!

See, it is quite clear. Even you said it.
However, if you believe we should cut our limbs off when they offend, I will allow you to go first, just to prove the everlasting fire is also literal.

As usual you twist the Scriptures.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:



You may be playing some sort of game. I'm not playing.
You're simply defending what you've been taught but you don't really know why it is and from where is comes from. Oh I was a lot like you at one time..
You are just going by a translation of a translation of the original text.
You are trusting a group of men who didn't speak the other languages well to determine what is true.
Just because King James men wrote it as everlasting or eternal does not make it so.
Just because some say KJV is the inspired word of God and the perfect English translation does not make it so either.
You mention KJV. I have checked many English translations and they agree. Care to try again?
 

Alethos

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No because that wouldn't save you. He was explaining the awfulness of eternity in the "everlasting fire".

Matthew 18:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Ducky

Probably not a very good example to use.

The body parts in mention represent those acts which they may sinfully perform. Its not literal...just like the everlasting fire.

As we have discussed "GEHENNA" also used to express everlasting "death" is the name of a place outside Jerusalem where a fire (
Gehenna ) was kept burning to consume the offal from the city. The term symbolises the everlasting destruction (i.e. perishing in death) of the wicked (Mark 9:47-48).

Actually you remind me of a verse in Isaiah which speaks to the everlasting fire. I am surprised you havn't quote this passage?

Isa 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

"The 'devouring fire' and 'everlasting burnings' speak to divine judgement as in Matt 18:8 & Matt 25:41. You will note both occurense are the subject of judgement, which proceeds the resurection.

This divine judgment was manifest before in Isa 30:27-33; 31:9 and found the same reaction in these Jewish sinners as a like the apperarnce of God had done in the hearts of their forefathers at Sinai; see...Exo 20:18,19; Deut 4:24; Num 17:12,13;

Going to the grave for eternity is a frightful thought Ducky.

Pro 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

Many shall go there and not return.:(

Alethos

ps You do know God is referred to as a consuming fire? I hope you dont think this is speaking of hell? Heb 12:29
 

Duckybill

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Probably not a very good example to use.

The body parts in mention represent those acts which they may sinfully perform. Its not literal...just like the everlasting fire.

Yes, it is literal.

"The 'devouring fire' and 'everlasting burnings' speak to divine judgement as in Matt 18:8 & Matt 25:41. You will note both occurense are the subject of judgement, which proceeds the resurection.

Neither verse says "
devouring fire" or "everlasting burnings".

This divine judgment was manifest before in Isa 30:27-33; 31:9 and found the same reaction in these Jewish sinners as a like the apperarnce of God had done in the hearts of their forefathers at Sinai; see...Exo 20:18,19; Deut 4:24; Num 17:12,13;

Going to the grave for eternity is a frightful thought Ducky.

Pro 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

Many shall go there and not return.:(

Alethos

ps You do know God is referred to as a consuming fire? I hope you dont think this is speaking of hell? Heb 12:29


You are making yourself appear very foolish. Why don't you just say you don't believe in eternal fire rather than telling us the Bible doesn't mean what it says?

Luke 16:22-26 (NKJV)
[sup]22 [/sup]So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. [sup]23 [/sup]And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [sup]24 [/sup]Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' [sup]25 [/sup]But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. [sup]26 [/sup]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'


 

Alethos

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Yes, it is literal.
So Jesus wants us to cut off our limbs if they offend?

Neither verse says "
devouring fire" or "everlasting burnings".



Yes, but the verse is taking about the same lesson "God is a consumming fire"

You are making yourself appear very foolish. Why don't you just say "you don't believe in eternal fire" rather than telling us the Bible doesn't mean what it says?

I rather like to see truth come from you Ducky.

Alethos (Heb 12:29)
 

Duckybill

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So Jesus wants us to cut off our limbs if they offend?

You are twisting what He said. He said it would be better than to go to the everlasting fire.
Yes, but the verse is taking about the same lesson "God is a consumming fire"
Which verse are you referring to?
I rather like to see truth come from you Ducky.
Enjoy.

Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
[sup]49 [/sup]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [sup]50 [/sup]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

 

TheWarIs1

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You're accepting the English translations as if they are prefect and accurate.
The original words were in Hebrew/ Aramaic and Some say Greek for the NT.

The words you see in your English version may not coincide with the Greek or Aramaic.

The same Greek word should mean the same thing in every sentence it's used but they don;t mean the same things always.
Therefore the word meanings should be examined for truth.

According to most ancient Greek writers like Plato, Aristotle and many others the words used by English translators are incorrect.

Aion is used by English translators to mean everlasting when it wasn't in the Greek.
aionian is similar. both are used for the word Age and for ever lasting
.
An Age is a specified period of time.

In Greek it says "eis aion aion"
This does not mean everlasting, or forever.
It means "age of ages"

Christ is the Rock of Ages.

Which came first the English or the Aramaic or Greek scriptures?


Shlama
 

Alethos

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An Age is a specified period of time.

In Greek it says "eis aion aion"
This does not mean everlasting, or forever.
It means "age of ages"

Christ is the Rock of Ages.

Which came first the English or the Aramaic or Greek scriptures?
Shlama

"Thou givest to Thy Son jurisdiction of all flesh, that everything which Thou hast given to him, he might give to them aionian life. And this is the life of the Aion (he aionios zoe) that they should understand Thee (ginoskosi se) the only true God, and Jesus Anointed whom Thou sendest" (John 17:2,3).

From this we learn:

1. That the life of Christs Aion is not given to all mankind!

2. That the life is for those hid in the Son; and

3. That this life is specially given to those who understand "the only true God," and His annointed Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Only a few chapters of the Old Testament were written in Aramaic with the majority of the Torah written in Hebrew.

However, based on your list provided Aramaic would be the answer.

Alethos