Righteousness and Holiness

[Nancy]

So we see so many we come into contact with who say they trust God but are fearful and worried about so many earthly things, like their job, how they will keep a roof over their head, coronavirus, how their 401k has tanked, their health. But we were told not to worry about those things.

And often, those people we come into contact with will talk about and debate about all manner of things about God, yet we see them not trusting but rather worrying. They are right where Israel was in the desert, held back from the abundance God has for them because they try to bypass the one very most important thing to discuss loftier things.

My older brother Frank is very negative and ALWAYS worried about things that "MIGHT" happen. He doesn't like when I try to explain that this is part of faith, that God knows what we have need of already. He will always come back with, "I have faith, but...." There should be no buts after proclaiming that you have faith. Cannot tell him anything as he say's "I know all I need to know to be saved"!!! So, I pray for him as, he does not ever leave his house, does not read the word. He sits in front of the idiot box all day and night and believes all the things that the MSM says. Frustrating no end.
Not to mention that we can never please God without it.

 

[MatthewG]

@marks

1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 4:2; Ephesians 4:22-32; Colossians 3:8; Hebrews 12:1-2; James 1:21; James 5:9

 

[Curtis]

Addressing Your third paragraph, marks -

Abraham believed and trusted God and God counted him righteous because he believed and trusted God.
We believe and trust God also and it is the same righteousness that is through trust (faith) that Abraham had.

By the kindness of God, through trust. That is how a man is saved. By grace, through faith.

I see them as the same. Imputed? imparted? I don’t know what that means. The same trust in God. The righteousness that is by trust (faith).


Romans 4
1
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
2
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." [1]
4
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7
"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." [2]
9
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.
10
Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
12
And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
14
For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,
15
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." [3] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." [4]
19
Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead.
20
Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,
21
being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
22
This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."
23
The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

And now, as Paul Harvey used to say, is the rest of the story, concerning Abraham, his faith, and when he was justified by faith and HOW he was justified.

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,

Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Paul said Abraham was justified apart from works.

James says Abraham WAS justified by works, which PERFECTED his faith, as are all men.

There’s no contradiction there at all.

Paul is always talking about not being justified by works of the law of Moses.

Look at the context of the topic in verses before and after all of Paul’s statements about works, it’s always about works of righteousness of the law of Moses.

James is talking about entirely different works, not about Mosaic law.

Works are involved in our justification, they don’t follow faith, they are part of saving faith, per Abraham’s works PERFECTING his faith, per James quotations above, and Abraham was justified until he obeyed God and took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him, and that work of obedience perfected his faith and justified him, again per the James citation given above.

Many Christians are clueless about what Paul means when he wrote that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works, and ignorantly think any requirement of obedience or righteous living is a work, and that nothing is required of us after salvation.

 

[marks]

Okay, I was reading marks as if he was eager to start this thread and was starting it before he left work and would return last night or this morning. I’m a little worried he ran into some trouble.
Edit: I see he edited his op after 10 p.m. maybe he is just waiting or has a busy weekend…

I post at my oh so slow job, but not at home, so that's why the gaps. And I occassionally can post on the weekends, like now.

All is well! Thank you for your concern.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Still reading replies . . .

Maybe holiness is like electricity, and righteousness is like light?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I see them as the same. Imputed? imparted? I don’t know what that means. The same trust in God. The righteousness that is by trust (faith).

When I think of imputed/imparted/practical righteousness, this is what I'm thinking,

Imputed righteousness - Nothing about the man is changed, only that God has declared him to be righteous. This is a judicial decree of innocence.

Imparted Righteousness - The man has been changed from an unrighteous into a righteous being. This is a transformation of one's nature.

Practical Righteousness - The man does what is right as a result of being made righteous. This is the result of said transformation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

more or less they are holiness and sanctified is same thing . first we get saved and are justified declared righteous , then set part which has 3 steps 1.postional placed in the body of Christ . 2. progressive we grow i grace and knowledge . by becoming a work in progress. 3 ultimate/final we made it to heaven .the work is complete

I understand sanctification is being made holy. And I don't always feel or seem entirely holy! To say the least!

Do we grow in holiness?

Much love!

 

[marks]

“Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

That's a great passage in considering holiness. It seems we have a clear part to play.

Making the right choices out of our righteousness, builds within us our holiness?

(Just a reminder . . . this is something I'm considering, and may say something silly, so be nice . . .)

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks the word for your scripture ends up coming to this definition.

3742. hosiotés only 2 occurrence in scripture.

says see hosios

righteous, pious, holy

Of uncertain affinity; properly, right (by intrinsic or divine character; thus distinguished from dikaios, which refers rather to human statutes and relations; from hieros, which denotes formal consecration; and from hagios, which relates to purity from defilement), i.e. Hallowed (pious, sacred, sure) -- holy, mercy, shalt be. anakainosis

My interlinear translates this word "benignity", so while that was interesting it didn't help me.

But I can see from your word study here how it comes as "holiness".

This is from Bible Gateway,

Cognate: 3742 hosiótēs (from 3741 /hósios, "what is sanctioned by the Lord") – properly, what God sanctions, i.e. what the Lord defines (ordains) as holy and just. See 3741 (hosios).

3742 /hosiótēs ("holiness") looks to the application of what God defines as sanctioned (i.e. as heaven's will works out on earth). This is holiness "fleshed out," i.e. incarnated by living in faith.

[Note the close relationship of faith (4102 /pístis, "God's inbirthed persuasion") and 3742 (hosiótēs) in Eph 4:5-24.]

This connects in my mind with Romans 5:5 "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay, I was reading marks as if he was eager to start this thread and was starting it before he left work and would return last night or this morning. I’m a little worried he ran into some trouble.
Edit: I see he edited his op after 10 p.m. maybe he is just waiting or has a busy weekend…

I've had this topic in mind for several months as I've been meditating on these things. But yes, I was very happy to get it started, at as I've been reading people's thoughts, quite justifiably so!

Much love!!

 

[marks]

So with my post #2 I was addressing marks third paragraph, which seemed to me to be saying there was a difference between Abrahams being counted righteous because of his trust and our being counted righteous because of our trust. I highlighted the parts of the passage I believe show that it is the same righteousness by trust, not different.

I understand us to be justified by the same faith as Abraham with judicial justification. We believe God's message, whatever that message may be that He gives to us, but just the same, we believe, and He counts us as righteous.

Still an amazingly gracious thing!

What I see as different is our recreation, a "material justification" as we are born from God, now different people from the one born from Adam, the sinner. I don't think anyone was actually born again before Jesus raised from the dead.

This connects with me to @MatthewG 's post about that word for holiness in Ephesians 5:24, that being a holiness that is given not so much as to make us holy, He does that too I think, but here, maybe the idea is the intent of that holiness, that we are like God in giving ourselves serving others. But His way.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Here is something found in Romans 10:
“that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9-10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

"resulting in righteousness", this triggers the thought,

Holiness is a condition, and righteousness is the result?

Much love!

 

[marks]

However what is one placing their faith in? It says the Gospel of Christ is the power to Salvation for anyone whom believes. Is that something you put your totally trust in faith in?

Most of us get stuck for many years in worrying about everything rather than that simple trust in everything. And so we are held back in that halfway in trust and halfway out of trust state. It is a state in which He can’t do many miracles because of our lack of trust.

In my life I've seen the many years I was a Christian, and I really believe I was, for a great many reasons, but a few years ago I was not only dreadfully ill for many months, but God really took my world apart, it's hard to describe it all without a book. But the through that process my perception of God changed from One in Whom I believed, to One Who is Here.

I really have a difficult time discussing this period of life, I'm still digesting it. God acted sovereignly, I believe answering prayers I've prayed decades before. I can't say I was growing in faith, or anything like that. I was growing as a Christian, but through all that God pried back the cover so I could see my inner self reliance underneath everything else.

Now I'm learning to just live now, and not past or future. I find living now it's easier to just trust God with that simple childlike trust.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Where you live and believe in your heart that Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected and you now are seen as right in Gods sight because of faith in the Gospel which one has if you want to learn and grow in spirit and worship God in spirit and truth? That you have a connection with God because of your faith in the Gospel of Christ?

This has been the real change in me these days is growing in my sense of connection to God. Understanding justification makes it easy to be in communion with God, so long as I'm not being distracted.

I realize He's always with me, but as I remind myself He is here with me now as I'm typing to you, sitting next to my wife, that He is more present with me than she is, that He is more sharing my life with me than she is, reminding myself He made me for this, changes everything.

The more I think about Christianity in general, the more it seems to me to be, "Draw near to God, and become like Him in so doing".

Much love!

 

[Truman]

In my life I've seen the many years I was a Christian, and I really believe I was, for a great many reasons, but a few years ago I was not only dreadfully ill for many months, but God really took my world apart, it's hard to describe it all without a book. But the through that process my perception of God changed from One in Whom I believed, to One Who is Here.

I really have a difficult time discussing this period of life, I'm still digesting it. God acted sovereignly, I believe answering prayers I've prayed decades before. I can't say I was growing in faith, or anything like that. I was growing as a Christian, but through all that God pried back the cover so I could see my inner self reliance underneath everything else.

Now I'm learning to just live now, and not past or future. I find living now it's easier to just trust God with that simple childlike trust.

Much love!

I wonder if what you went through was similar to what I did 21 years ago. Maybe, maybe not. I relate intimately with this passage.
"…15What can I say? He has spoken to me, and He Himself has done this. I will walk slowly all my years because of the anguish of my soul. 16O Lord, by such things men live, and in all of them my spirit finds life. You have restored me to health and have let me live. 17Surely for my own welfare I had such great anguish; but Your love has delivered me from the pit of oblivion, for You have cast all my sins behind Your back.…" - Isaiah 38:15-17

 

[marks]

So we have moments of pure perfection when we are filled with the Holy Spirit

A taste of what is to come, maybe just the barest taste.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If we won’t believe and trust Him in what He has said about earthly things and then have the obedience of trust, He can’t tell us about heavenly things,(John 3:12) because if we won’t trust in earthly things, we wouldn’t believe Him if He told us about heavenly things.

I think it's that obedience of trust that comes first for us.

So, I guess my point was…the first thing is the righteousness that is by trust (faith). If we are double minded in trust,
We get ahead of ourselves in a discussion about holiness. Do the first thing first.

I think we spend a lifetime on both of these.

I find there are a great many ways to distrust God and all He says to us. He says He will provide for our needs, do we believe Him? He says all our circumstances are for our good, do we believe Him? He says He will always be with us, forever, do we believe?

What James says . . . the double minded shouldn't expect to receive anything from the Lord.

Trusting is simple, but not easy, I think!

Much love!

 

[marks]

And often, those people we come into contact with will talk about and debate about all manner of things about God, yet we see them not trusting but rather worrying. They are right where Israel was in the desert, held back from the abundance God has for them because they try to bypass the one very most important thing to discuss loftier things.

For me, in my life, it's all about that one truth . . . For He has promised, I will never leave you, nor forsake you. He is with me. He's got what He wants. I'm with Him, and I'm safe. He's got me! And everything else is after that.

Much love!

 

[Truman]

Not too long before I went through my time that I called, "being ground to dust," He spoke to me and said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." He never has. Through it all, He has been proven faithful to me.

 

[marks]

I wonder if what you went through was similar to what I did 21 years ago. Maybe, maybe not. I relate intimately with this passage.
"…15What can I say? He has spoken to me, and He Himself has done this. I will walk slowly all my years because of the anguish of my soul. 16O Lord, by such things men live, and in all of them my spirit finds life. You have restored me to health and have let me live. 17Surely for my own welfare I had such great anguish; but Your love has delivered me from the pit of oblivion, for You have cast all my sins behind Your back.…" - Isaiah 38:15-17

I've identified with many things you've said in the past.

It was during this time that I learned much more of how God loves me, and a lot had to do with timely readings from Isaiah.

Much love!