Sound doctrine for salvation does not require scripture gymnastics or lengthily tirades to convince the willing listener. It is common that those who do so are in reality trying to convince themselves more than others.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Preach the glorious gospel to all that has breath , He or she who believes shall be saved , AS JESUS SAID
and He or she that believeth not shall be damned ,as JESUS said . march on , and let the LORD be praised and thanked .
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Why would you suggest that I was gnashing my teeth? I'm taking time out of my busy schedule to help you. You don't seem to understand the concept of "redemption" and in a loving way, I'm trying to help you.
Ransom is paid to free someone and this is why Peter tells you that we are a free people. Jesus didn't buy slaves, he paid the price to set us free. Peter is exhorting his readers, whom he considers to be a free people against living a life of licentiousness. Why would he do that? Because they are no longer under law but under grace. They no longer are constrained by a law, a set of rules, a set of judgments and a culture.
Jesus-followers are no longer living according to a set of rules. We are now living according to a wisdom, which God himself is teaching us. James 1:5 Peter's point is this. Those whom Christ set free are now able to live according to their own judgment and wisdom, which is coming from God. We are not slaves of God as you suggest. We are students of God, obeying him and learning wisdom from him. In other words, "Live free, but live as those serving God."
If this is not helpful, I'm sorry.
For all whom Christ died, for them He also rose again the third day 1 Cor 15:3-4, and for them He has been seated at the Right Hand of God, and makes intercession for them Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Thats right, all for whom Christ died [Gods Elect] He rose again [for their justification Rom 4:25] and He maketh intercession for them !
Jesus Christ makes intercession for all sinner He died and rose again for.1083
This Intercession also saves them, brings them to God Heb 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Thats right, all for whom Christ died [Gods Elect] He rose again [for their justification Rom 4:25] and He maketh intercession for them !
Jesus Christ makes intercession for all sinner He died and rose again for.1083
This Intercession also saves them, brings them to God Heb 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Again, you dont believe in the saving efficacy of the cross, that can only mean you are attached to the false notion of salvation by man and what he does.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It looks like that is what he believes, because Jesus shed his blood for our sins all men are saved regardless of what they themselves believe, what actions they take in life etc. I wonder how many are saved but do not know it.
How did God measure Abraham's faith? Abraham had to believe and obey. His actions highlighted his belief and faith. Abraham was not born with righteousness but obtained it by faith. It's clear that we must be born again. If we are to be born again we cannot be already born again. We are not born again without knowing so. It's so simply we must be born again. No place in scripture does it say after the cross that we are all automatically born again.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 10:26 seems as clear as could be. Funny how people twist God's word to fit their doctrine.
On this forum, some willfully took 'knowledge' to mean something other than having received - then rejected - the Spirit of God. An odd dichotomy but necessary to reconcile their OSAS doctrine.
You subtract "slaves of God" right out of Peter's writing of "as free, and not having the freedom as a cover-up for evil, but as slaves of God." (1 Peter 2:16), so you do an unbelieving deed/fruit.
You cannot escape the fact that "ransom" is used in scripture to indicate a "demand for payment to recover ownership of 'his life'" in "If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him" (Exodus 21:30).
According to Exodus 21:30, "ransom" is defined as "demand for payment to recover ownership".
According to Exodus 21:30, "redemption" is defined as "payment for recovery of unencumbered ownership".
Christ's Blood shed on the cross is payment for the ransom that leads to Christ's followers being bought unto slaves of God; moreover, the payment for the ransom is redemption of Christ's followers.
We slaves of God are set free from the punishment for sin.
When you wrote "Jesus didn't buy disciples", then, in effect, @CadyandZoe, you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid resulting you being under the punishment for sin.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Those lacking sound doctrine tend to make posts devoid of the Word of God while using the precepts of men (Matthew 15:9) as their foundation.
Oh, look, that's precisely what you've done, @TEXBOW.
No person can believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent UNLESS Almighty God does a work in the person causing the person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent.
The Word says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
This means only people whom God chooses to impart belief in Jesus receive salvation; moreover, Christ died to cause the cleansing of His chosen believers (Acts 15:8-9).
You wrote "God wasn't absolving people of guilt".
It is written "YHWH was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of YHWH will prosper in His hand" (Isaiah 53:10).
Behold, both statements contain the word "guilt".
See the diametric opposition of your heart's thoughts against the Holy Scripture!
Paul wrote "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17)
For a complete scriptural refutation of your writing, please see post #2475.
Your thoughts that you wrote are the precepts of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
I pray that we all find the truth and give glory to God. I do not feel compelled to convince you.
Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and by God's grace for God's glory God caused me to believe in Jesus (John 6:29).
Your heart's treasure is that you claim to have chosen Jesus, so in effect you wickedly steal the glory that is exclusively God's for salvation.
Truly, the Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
Scriptures that prove that Christ did not come to save all men, but only some !
I know the devil has deceived many into thinking that Christ came to save all sinners without exception. This he does by employing words in their minds like every, all, world, or whole world, and then blinding men to the biblical significance of those words in redemptive history !
However its my ministry to tell the truth as it is in Christ Jesus. Here are some verses that show that Salvation is based upon Gods Promise, and its Promised to only Gods Elect, Israel, the Church/Body of Christ !
1. Isa 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
John Gill writes on this verse :
But Israel shall be saved in the Lord,.... Not the carnal seed of Israel, or the natural posterity of Jacob, for only a remnant of them were saved; indeed, in the latter day, when there will be a general conversion of them, there will be a general salvation of them,all Israel shall be saved; but here the spiritual Israel of God are meant, such as God has appointed unto salvation; who are taken into the covenant of his grace, in which their salvation is secured; who are his spiritual people, whom Christ saves from their sins; who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and are called by his grace; who believe in him, and hope in the Lord: these "shall be saved": there is a certainty of their salvation, and not a mere probability and possibility of it only. It is not they "may be", but they "shall be" saved; it is the will of God they should, whose will cannot be resisted; they are the purchase of Christ, which he will never lose, and the Spirit is the earnest and pledge of salvation to them: and it is "in" and "by the Lord" they are saved, not in of themselves; their destruction is of themselves, but their salvation is of the Lord; and they are saved as they are in him, and owing to their being in him; they are chosen in him, and hence spring all the blessings of grace and salvation to them; they are representatively in him, as their federal Head; they are openly in him, in effectual calling; and they are justified in him, and by his righteousness, and so saved; and being in him, there is no condemnation to them, nor can they ever come into it. They are saved "by" the Lord; by the Word of the Lord, as the Targum; by Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word; by his obedience, sufferings, and death; by his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; and by his interceding life, and that "with an everlasting salvation"; which is distinguished, by this epithet, from a temporal one, and is opposed to eternal damnation, the desert of sin; it is the salvation of the immortal soul, and includes in it grace and glory, which are perpetual and everlasting; and the duration of it is owing to the perpetuity of Christ's person, office, and grace: or, "with a salvation of ages", or "worlds" (a):
Click to expand...
I will say, I disagree with John Gill on the portion of his statement I have in red. I do believe a remnant of jews will be saved in the Israel of God, along with remnants of other races of people !
However, be that as it may, Salvation is only promised to some out of the entirety of mankind, and that some is called Israel , a Elect People from all nations !
I know the devil has deceived many into thinking that Christ came to save all sinners without exception. This he does by employing words in their minds like every, all, world, or whole world, and then blinding men to the biblical significance of those words in redemptive history !
However its my ministry to tell the truth as it is in Christ Jesus. Here are some verses that show that Salvation is based upon Gods Promise, and its Promised to only Gods Elect, Israel, the Church/Body of Christ !
1. Isa 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
John Gill writes on this verse :
But Israel shall be saved in the Lord,.... Not the carnal seed of Israel, or the natural posterity of Jacob, for only a remnant of them were saved; indeed, in the latter day, when there will be a general conversion of them, there will be a general salvation of them,all Israel shall be saved; but here the spiritual Israel of God are meant, such as God has appointed unto salvation; who are taken into the covenant of his grace, in which their salvation is secured; who are his spiritual people, whom Christ saves from their sins; who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and are called by his grace; who believe in him, and hope in the Lord: these "shall be saved": there is a certainty of their salvation, and not a mere probability and possibility of it only. It is not they "may be", but they "shall be" saved; it is the will of God they should, whose will cannot be resisted; they are the purchase of Christ, which he will never lose, and the Spirit is the earnest and pledge of salvation to them: and it is "in" and "by the Lord" they are saved, not in of themselves; their destruction is of themselves, but their salvation is of the Lord; and they are saved as they are in him, and owing to their being in him; they are chosen in him, and hence spring all the blessings of grace and salvation to them; they are representatively in him, as their federal Head; they are openly in him, in effectual calling; and they are justified in him, and by his righteousness, and so saved; and being in him, there is no condemnation to them, nor can they ever come into it. They are saved "by" the Lord; by the Word of the Lord, as the Targum; by Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word; by his obedience, sufferings, and death; by his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; and by his interceding life, and that "with an everlasting salvation"; which is distinguished, by this epithet, from a temporal one, and is opposed to eternal damnation, the desert of sin; it is the salvation of the immortal soul, and includes in it grace and glory, which are perpetual and everlasting; and the duration of it is owing to the perpetuity of Christ's person, office, and grace: or, "with a salvation of ages", or "worlds" (a):
Click to expand...
I will say, I disagree with John Gill on the portion of his statement I have in red. I do believe a remnant of jews will be saved in the Israel of God, along with remnants of other races of people !
However, be that as it may, Salvation is only promised to some out of the entirety of mankind, and that some is called Israel , a Elect People from all nations !
No its not, you just dont understand, and you promote salvation by works, and deny the saving efficacy of the death of Christ.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Friend, you can’t have it both ways. Either there is universal salvation (through your much beloved phrase, ‘the saving efficacy of the death of Christ’) or there is not.
A. Universalism
B. Not universalism.
Perhaps it is your hatred toward a believer having a burden (works) that blinds you to this truth.
Christ makes it clear what that burden is, for he says not all who call him Lord will be saved. What do you trust more, your OSAS doctrine or the words of the Son of God?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Kermos,
The "guilt" offering is a "reparation" offering: a gesture intended to express "mea culpa", an acknowledgment of one's fault or error, which accompanies a desire to restore good relations with the offended party, in this case, God. Unlike a sin offering, which is punishment for an offence; the guilt offering is an act of conciliation, attempting to make peace with God.
How does this information help us understand Isaiah's point? We might get the wrong impression that the servant's suffering is the "guilt offering" but I believe Isaiah is focused on the servant's life. First of all, Isaiah's description of the suffering is stated in the past tense, as if the suffering had already taken place. Second, the conditional statement, "If he renders himself as a guilt offering . . ." indicates that the servant is offering his entire life as the offering. In other words, the guilt offering is not the death of Jesus on the cross per se, but Jesus offered his entire life of obedience which not only included his death on the cross but his walk with the Father, healing the sick and setting the captives free.
Isaiah is not talking about our guilt being punished; he is talking about Jesus' role in expressing Israel's mea culpa and if they would give their own lives of obedience as a guilt offering, the Father would prolong their days and prosper in his hand.
Another scriptural reason why Christ did not die for all men without exception, its because those He died for, He Lived for, and fulfilled the Law for them, obeyed it for them Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
And so they are declared Righteous before God. Now all men God doesnt declare righteous, since the unrighteous will be excluded from the eternal kingdom 1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Now if Christ had died for them, God could not declare them unrighteous !1093
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
And so they are declared Righteous before God. Now all men God doesnt declare righteous, since the unrighteous will be excluded from the eternal kingdom 1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Now if Christ had died for them, God could not declare them unrighteous !1093
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