Why was there a reformation?

[quietthinker]

Protestants have ironically kept traditions and adhered to beliefs that were enforced by popes for centuries. Protestants shouldn't be pointing their fingers at Catholics using sexual abuse, their support of criminals, fraud, and heresy is that Protestant churches have been significantly more guilty of all these things. Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the Reformers are basically the Protestants' popes, and they have certainly done equally monstrous things in the name of Christ. But when someone speak against those men or the scandals that permeates their churches, Protestants are quick to act like no one is supposed to hold those churches and their religion accountable.

Protestants shouldn't be so arrogant as to believe they have spent 6 centuries being squeaky clean and preaching the biblical Jesus, because it's clear from their own bloody and scandalous history that this isn't true. The amount of lawlessness that has being exposed in Protestant churches over the past few years alone is enough to make a person's head spin. Your leaders are either conning people out of their money to live lavishly, having affairs, committing fornication with sex workers, ordaining homosexuals into the clergy, or committing some other shameful act that causes people to blaspheme Christ. Protestants are not in the position to be judging anybody when they won't hold their own churches accountable for the amount of evil that is accepted in their own churches.

Shock horror! ...there are actually sinners around in sanctified places! well I'll be!
When you find the holy crowd, let me know

 

[TEXBOW]

Oh...any YOU know the truth? Your theory is that the Catholic Church doesn't have the "truth" and they are following the anti-Christ? Well, every Protestant denomination teaches a different "truth" so which one does have this "truth" that you speak of and eludes you?

There are 2.38 billion Christians in the world. Of that 1.2 billion are members of the Catholic Church (largest church) and 220 million Eastern Orthodox Catholics (2nd largest). That means that 60% of Christians adhere to the same teaching/truth. They have discovered this "truth" that eludes you.

There are 920 million Protestants which make up the other 40% of Christians. Each denomination teaches a different "truth". Clearly they all can't have the "truth" and only one of them can have the "truth". So let's just pretend that out of the dozens of different Protestant denominations (different truths) that the largest one, World Communion of Reformed Churches with 100 million members, has this "truth" that you speak of and eludes you. That means that only 100 million Christians adhere to this "truth" that eludes you. Which means that 2.28 billion Christians (Catholics and Protestants) don't know the "truth" and are being deceived by the anti-Christ.

Clearly, according to your theory, Satan has won.

Keeping it real...Mary

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You will not find salvation or safety in numbers.

 

[Marymog]

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You will not find salvation or safety in numbers.

Hold on kiddo.
You said "The Roman Catholic Church is the dwelling place of the Anti-Christ...... I pray they discover the truth."

Since you believe that The Catholic Church has not discovered the "truth" that means that YOU surely must know what the "truth" is. Because you can't tell someone, or in this case an entity, that they don't have the "truth" unless YOU know the "truth".

Sooooo why don't you start your own church and teach the 'truth' instead of wasting your time on this forum arguing with me? I am sure everyone would love to hear your 'truth'.

Curious Mary

PS...Maybe the 'truth' is that Satan has not won, which is what your theory suggests, and the majority of Christians in the world are following the Truth in the teaching of The Catholic Church.....

 

[Marymog]

lol....sounds like the standard mantra coming from very quarter Mary.....you know, 'them and us'

Hmmmm....either you don't want to answer the question or you missed it so lets try this again quitthinker. Which Church would you like to go to so we can settle this difference we have between us?

Let's you and I fulfill what Scripture tells us to do in Matthew 18:17....Which Church do you choose?

 

[TEXBOW]

Hold on kiddo.
You said "The Roman Catholic Church is the dwelling place of the Anti-Christ...... I pray they discover the truth."

Since you believe that The Catholic Church has not discovered the "truth" that means that YOU surely must know what the "truth" is. Because you can't tell someone, or in this case an entity, that they don't have the "truth" unless YOU know the "truth".

Sooooo why don't you start your own church and teach the 'truth' instead of wasting your time on this forum arguing with me? I am sure everyone would love to hear your 'truth'.

Curious Mary

PS...Maybe the 'truth' is that Satan has not won, which is what your theory suggests, and the majority of Christians in the world are following the Truth in the teaching of The Catholic Church.....

It's the truth, not my truth. Take the Roman Catholic doctrine and get your eraser out and if you remove the false teachings you will eventually get to the truth. Start off by believing that Jesus's death on the cross was 100% sufficient to remove your sins if you accept God's grace and believe. Erase all the works based mumbo jumbo. Throw purgatory out too. Remove the papacy as a substitute or stand-in for Christ. He is just another sinner in need of God's grace. Remove all the idols and dead that you pray to, they can't hear you including Mary. Stop the worship of relics. Repent and follow Jesus only.

 

[TEXBOW]

Hmmmm....either you don't want to answer the question or you missed it so lets try this again quitthinker. Which Church would you like to go to so we can settle this difference we have between us?

Let's you and I fulfill what Scripture tells us to do in Matthew 18:17....Which Church do you choose?

The only true Church is the body of Christ. Buildings, denominations, and relics don't matter.

 

[TEXBOW]

One day all the Popes will stand in Judgement before the true Throne. Poor old Pope Formosus has the distinction of having to be pulled out of the grave twice for trial. What a clown show that must have been. It's obvious that one of the RCC infallible Popes was insane (Pope Stephen VI).

 

[Marymog]

The only true Church is the body of Christ. Buildings, denominations, and relics don't matter.

Huh? Sooooooo we should go to the body of Christ to fulfill Matthew 18:17? The body of Christ is the pillar and foundation of truth spoken of in 1 timthy 3:15? When Jesus said to Peter 'upon this rock I will build my church' He meant 'upon this rock I will build my church and my church is my body'???? NONE of that makes sense. Have you even read what Scripture has to say about The Church? Would you care to try again?

Patient Mary

 

[TEXBOW]

Huh? Sooooooo we should go to the body of Christ to fulfill Matthew 18:17? The body of Christ is the pillar and foundation of truth spoken of in 1 timthy 3:15? When Jesus said to Peter 'upon this rock I will build my church' He meant 'upon this rock I will build my church and my church is my body'???? NONE of that makes sense. Have you even read what Scripture has to say about The Church? Would you care to try again?

Patient Mary

Peter is not the rock on which the Church was built. Jesus is the rock. The Church is the body of Christ. The body of Christ is the collection of believers. It is not a denomination. It is not building.
Loving Texbow

 

[Marymog]

It's the truth, not my truth. Take the Roman Catholic doctrine and get your eraser out and if you remove the false teachings you will eventually get to the truth. Start off by believing that Jesus's death on the cross was 100% sufficient to remove your sins if you accept God's grace and believe. Erase all the works based mumbo jumbo. Throw purgatory out too. Remove the papacy as a substitute or stand-in for Christ. He is just another sinner in need of God's grace. Remove all the idols and dead that you pray to, they can't hear you including Mary. Stop the worship of relics. Repent and follow Jesus only.

Finally....you are teaching me your truth....which you believe is THE truth.

Soooooo all the men for the last 2,000 years who you teach opposite of you (yes, even the reformers taught opposite of you) were wrong and YOU are right? Is that what you are trying to convince me?

Did you know Catholics don't "worship relics"? Did you know that The Church doesn't teach that the pope is the "stand-in for Christ"? Only you protestants teach that lie. Sooooo we can put those to lies to rest and have a honest discussion.....I hope!!

As far as "works" go can you show me your faith without your works? Did you know that Scripture says faith, without works, is dead? Can you quote from Scripture what works we are supposed to do? And what happens to a person if they don't obey Scripture?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Peter is not the rock on which the Church was built. Jesus is the rock. The Church is the body of Christ. The body of Christ is the collection of believers. It is not a denomination. It is not building.
Loving Texbow

Hold on. Hold on kiddo. Jesus said 'you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church' but YOU say "Peter is not the rock on which the Church was built." It seems to me what you are saying contradicts what is written in Scripture.

So your theory is that "the collection of believers" is the church???? OK.....So, once again, which "collection of believers" should we go to so that we can fulfill Matthew 18:17? Which collection of believers is the pillar and foundation of truth? Is this "collection of believers" invisible? Only known to a select few? Help me out here...I am trying to understand what you are saying.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Satan’s seething hatred for God, Christ and his holy church continues in the person of luther a Freemason Rosa crucian occultist atttacking God and his church and his truth of course!

Except that the Roman Catholic Church organization are the FIRST Protestants, becoming so in 1050 when they tossed the Orthodox Catholics under the bus, and grabbed the primacy for themselves.

 

[TEXBOW]

Hold on. Hold on kiddo. Jesus said 'you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church' but YOU say "Peter is not the rock on which the Church was built." It seems to me what you are saying contradicts what is written in Scripture.

So your theory is that "the collection of believers" is the church???? OK.....So, once again, which "collection of believers" should we go to so that we can fulfill Matthew 18:17? Which collection of believers is the pillar and foundation of truth? Is this "collection of believers" invisible? Only known to a select few? Help me out here...I am trying to understand what you are saying.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) of the church. It is a mistake to think that here He is giving either of those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles played a foundational role in the building of the church (Ephesians 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So, Jesus’ words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. And Christ Himself is called the “chief cornerstone” (1 Peter 2:6, 7). The chief cornerstone of any building was that upon which the building was anchored. If Christ declared Himself to be the cornerstone, how could Peter be the rock upon which the church was built? It is more likely that the believers, of which Peter is one, are the stones which make up the church, anchored upon the Cornerstone, “and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6).

 

[Marymog]

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11)...

No, not true. Read those verses again. Acts 4:11 talks about Jesus being the cornerstone. A cornerstone is part of a foundation. So you got that one wrong.

Read 1 Corinthians 3:11 again. It says that Christ laid a foundation....it doesn't say He is the foundation. Also, read 1 Corinthians 3:10. Paul says he laid a foundation. How does that fit into your interpretation of Scripture?

 

[quietthinker]

Hmmmm....either you don't want to answer the question or you missed it so lets try this again quitthinker. Which Church would you like to go to so we can settle this difference we have between us?

Let's you and I fulfill what Scripture tells us to do in Matthew 18:17....Which Church do you choose?

Your question infers that 'Church' means an organisation with a visible structure and name. My guess is you take this line so that you can continue the 'them and us'

God's church is manifest in this.....'by this will all men know you are my disciples, if you have love one for another'....pretty simple huh!

 

[TEXBOW]

No, not true. Read those verses again. Acts 4:11 talks about Jesus being the cornerstone. A cornerstone is part of a foundation. So you got that one wrong.

Read 1 Corinthians 3:11 again. It says that Christ laid a foundation....it doesn't say He is the foundation. Also, read 1 Corinthians 3:10. Paul says he laid a foundation. How does that fit into your interpretation of Scripture?

I can't help you. Your understanding of the cornerstone and foundation make this a mute discussion. I'm sorry but Peter was not your first Pope.

 

[Illuminator]

I can't help you. Your understanding of the cornerstone and foundation make this a mute discussion. I'm sorry but Peter was not your first Pope.

The reason it's a mute discussion is that some people refuse to accept that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and words in Scripture can have more that one meaning.

1 Cor. 3:11 – Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

The Biblical Church - Scripture Catholic

see also THE PRIMACY OF PETER - Scripture Catholic

The basic assumptions the typical Evangelical has about the papacy are part of the wallpaper in the Evangelical world. Being brought up in an independent Bible Church, I was taught that our little fellowship of Christians meeting to study the Bible, pray and sing gospel songs was like the ‘early Christians’ meeting in their house churches. I had a mental picture of ‘Catholic Pope’ which I had pieced together from a whole range of biased sources. When I heard the word ‘pope’ I pictured a corpulent Italian with the juicy name “Borgia” who drank a lot of wine, was supposed to be celibate, but who not only had mistresses, but sons who he called ‘nephews’. This ‘pope’ had big banquets in one of his many palaces, was very rich, rode out to war when he felt like it and liked to tell Michelangelo how to paint. That this ‘pope’ was a later invention of the corrupt Catholic Church was simply part of the whole colorful story.

But of course, the idea that the florid Renaissance pope is typical of all popes is not a Catholic invention, but a Protestant one. Protestantism has been compelled to rewrite all history according to it’s own necessities. As French historian Augustin Thierry has written, “To live, Protestantism found itself forced to build up a history of its own.”

The five basic assumptions of non-Catholic Christians can be corrected by looking at the history of the early church. Did Jesus envision and plan a monarchical papacy? Was the early church de-centralized? Was the early church essentially local and congregational? Did the early church only become hierarchical after the emperor was converted? Did Leo the Great invent the papacy in the fifth century? To examine this we’ll have to put on one side the preconceptions and mental images of Borgia popes and get down to ‘just the facts ma’am.’
Authority of the First Popes - Fr. Dwight Longenecker

 

[theefaith]

Except that the Roman Catholic Church organization are the FIRST Protestants, becoming so in 1050 when they tossed the Orthodox Catholics under the bus, and grabbed the primacy for themselves.

peter always has primacy the orthodox separated themselves from Christ and his one true church

 

[Marymog]

I can't help you. Your understanding of the cornerstone and foundation make this a mute discussion. I'm sorry but Peter was not your first Pope.

I feel like your joking. MY understanding of cornerstone and foundation is wrong?????????????????????????? Those passages LITERALLY don't say what you allege they say. You have twisted them around to fit what you believe. Who is helping you with your bible study????? Whomever it is you should RUN from them very fast and very far. Sadly I think you are your own teacher and you can't run from yourself!!! But Scripture (2 Peter 3:16) did warn us about men like you! Scripture is always right!

 

[theefaith]

Peter was the first pope
Pope means father
Isa 22:21-22