Did Jesus need a redeemer? Or was He The Redeemer?

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Alethos

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Just in case you don’t know; a dead man cannot restore himself to life, this you must admit,


To this response you are calling Jesus a liar. So then he was a sinner to you also.


Now also I never remember in scripture Jesus ever praying to His God but to His Father.


As far as the final question I would say the temple of Jesus, the Son of man, was fully dead. But as we all know the completion of a man is more than just temple. We all have a fleshly death, but Jesus being without sin, unlike you say, was able to raise his Holy temple, for satan had no hold on Him.

So you are saying that Jesus never really died. Sounds like the serpent in the Garden and how wrong was he and A&E.

You have believed in the same lie.

Which shows that you are doing a fine job of indoctrinating the adolescents in your Sunday school class.....congratulations. How does comparing adult students of the Bible to your students help spread the gospel?

Thanks Aspen...it appears some here would benefit from Paul instruction in Heb 5:12. Certianly many here are avoiding the questions being asked.

Keep putting up the distractions for they only prove (to me) your unwillingness to address Heb 13:20 Phil 2:8 Heb 9:12

Cast your many stones!

But when you get moment infomr us of how Jesus came under the operation of his own blood?

Waiting












 

aspen

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So you are saying that Jesus never really died. Sounds like the serpent in the Garden and how wrong was he and A&E.

You have believed in the same lie.


"'I would say the temple of Jesus, the Son of man, was fully dead."


I am not sure how you missed this part of the post.

Thanks Aspen...it appears some here would benefit from Paul instruction in Heb 5:12. Certianly many here are avoiding the questions being asked.

Keep putting up the distractions for they only prove (to me) your unwillingness to address Heb 13:20 Phil 2:8 Heb 9:12

Cast your many stones!

But when you get moment infomr us of how Jesus came under the operation of his own blood?


I asked you a serious question and you are refusing to answer it; just as you have refused to answer the majority of questions posed to you.
It seems crazy to me that you can act condescending AND play the victim simultaneousnessly!


BTW - I have already addressed those verses in our first conversation - weeks ago.















 

justaname

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I am saying the temple was fully dead, but fully restored to life. If you remember Jesus had a friend in which he wept over that was fully dead that he also restored. It is not I who believes a lie but you who spreads them.
We as humans have what is called a soul. Jesus' teaching not mine. It is the soul that lives on. Before Jesus, souls waited in Abraham's bosom. Some in paradise others in hades. If you remember Jesus told the thief next to him he would be in paradise. Jesus left that paradise, gathered His temple, and took His place at the right hand of the Father. The throne now being protected by the Everlasting Father. At final judgement those not in the fold will be cast into the lake of fire, the rest either being established in the heavens or able to live with God here on earth.

Jesus did not take on the nature of angles, but the seed of Abraham. The soul of Jesus shared in the Spirit of the Father, Jesus being the Lord of Hosts. Now established he is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, there is no God beside Him. On earth before death he took the role of servant, yet the devils he cast out out knew exactly who he was.
 

Alethos

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I am saying the temple was fully dead, but fully restored to life. If you remember Jesus had a friend in which he wept over that was fully dead that he also restored. It is not I who believes a lie but you who spreads them.
We as humans have what is called a soul. Jesus' teaching not mine. It is the soul that lives on. Before Jesus, souls waited in Abraham's bosom. Some in paradise others in hades. If you remember Jesus told the thief next to him he would be in paradise. Jesus left that paradise, gathered His temple, and took His place at the right hand of the Father. The throne now being protected by the Everlasting Father. At final judgement those not in the fold will be cast into the lake of fire, the rest either being established in the heavens or able to live with God here on earth.

Jesus did not take on the nature of angles, but the seed of Abraham. The soul of Jesus shared in the Spirit of the Father, Jesus being the Lord of Hosts. Now established he is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, there is no God beside Him. On earth before death he took the role of servant, yet the devils he cast out out knew exactly who he was.

Aspen, do you agree with all the above?
 

aspen

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Here is a post I wrote several years ago and decided to re-post after recently engaging in a rather nasty religious debate. Here are my observations about the conversational style of people who are more interested in winning an argument, rather than learning.
After spending years debating James White, I have noticed common tactics employed by people who want to win at any cost rather than seek a mutual understanding of the facts or even work toward a mutual disagreement. Ann Coulter is a good example of a political satirist who engages in this sort of rhetoric. Let's take a closer look, shall we?

1. Make an outrageous claim. It doesn't matter if the Pope is or is not speaking infallibly, or if you take a comment out of context, or if the group you belong to is just as guilty as the group you are making accusations against, because the goal is not to be fair minded or even handed or even accurate; all you need to be concerned with is igniting an emotional response from your opponent rather than a logical one. Remember, you are always right and your opponent is always wrong; your job is to simply supply enough emotional rope for your opponent to hang himself.

2. Rely on Mocking or Sarcasm to ignite passion: If you are of a conservative ilk, rely on a mocking, morally superior tone to deliver your message (James White, Ann Coulter, etc); if you happen to be liberal use a lot of sarcastic humor to exalt yourself above your opponent's attempts at presenting himself/herself as morally superior (John Stewart, Steven Colbert, Al Franken). BTW, liberals get the most points when they present themselves so convincingly that even conservatives mistake them for a conservative! (Archie Bunker)

3. Do not give an inch: If your opponent happens to stumble upon a true statement, ignore, deny or re-frame the conversation! In all cases, never concede even a minor point to your opponent.

4. Make your opponent work harder: Always remember that you are right, regardless of the facts presented, and you will eventually prove it by weathering any storm that may be created due to the information your opponent happens to give you. Most importantly, make sure he spends most of his time researching the topic; you must put him in a place where he feels like he has to prove you wrong. If he presents troubling information to you about your own position simply refuse to acknowledge it. The fact is you set the pace and the agenda of the debate; your opponent is either a brainwashed innocent or at worst, a conniving, interloper who has no right to challenge your superior position, and only appears to have the nerve to do so without merit. Most importantly, he is challenging you intentionally; therefore it is the "Christian" thing to do to put him back in his place.

5. Do not bother reading posts or listening to responses from your opponent: After all, reading your opponent's posts may ignite emotions within yourself, or take your mind off your primary goal, winning. Instead of reading, skim your opponent's post for statements that can be molded to aid you in your ultimate goal. The best statements are usually the most irrelevant to your opponent's point - why re-post something meaningful or relevant? Oh, and make sure you continue to apply the steady drumbeat of either mocking / moral superiority, or sarcastic humor.

6. Stay the Course!: Eventually your opponent with either hang himself or simply tire of the interaction; in both cases, you must declare victory immediately. Like any good staring contest or series of tic-tac-toe draws, it is not the person that presents the best case who wins, but the person who is left standing.

Aspen, do you agree with all the above?

I do not believe in a soul. I do believe we will receive a new spirit body like Jesus did.


 

Alethos

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"'I would say the temple of Jesus, the Son of man, was fully dead."


I am not sure how you missed this part of the post.

I asked you a serious question and you are refusing to answer it; just as you have refused to answer the majority of questions posed to you.
It seems crazy to me that you can act condescending AND play the victim simultaneousnessly!


BTW - I have already addressed those verses in our first conversation - weeks ago.

Aspen, I am a sinner...look past the person who is fallible and see the message.

 

aspen

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Aspen, I am a sinner...look past the person who is fallible and see the message.

You message is flawed, Shane. It is so flawed that it places your theological position, outside of Christianity. That is the primary issue.

It is also causing me discomfort because I am being placed in a position of reigning you in, rather than challenging the status quo. Your ideas go far beyond pushing the limits.....you are teaching heresy.

You unwillingness to consider the errors within your position is another.
 

justaname

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Jesus said thou shat love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy soul, and all thy mind.
 

Alethos

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I do not believe in a soul. I do believe we will receive a new spirit body like Jesus did.

Aspen, thankyou for providing some moderation guidelines.

Can you further explain what you mean by "soul"

I believe our mortal bodies will be "clothed" or changed to a new Spirit Body.

At some stage please revisit your thoughts on Jesus being redeemed. Heb 13:20 Phil 2:8 Heb 9:12

Jesus "obtained eternal redemption "by" his own blood? Not just for us but himself also...the question is still why and how?

Alethos
 

Alethos

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You message is flawed, Shane. It is so flawed that it places your theological position, outside of Christianity. That is the primary issue.

It is also causing me discomfort because I am being placed in a position of reigning you in, rather than challenging the status quo. Your ideas go far beyond pushing the limits.....you are teaching heresy.

You unwillingness to consider the errors within your position is another.

Aspen

I appreciate your position is one of status quo, but I feel you are yet to consider the eternal riches stored in the nature of Christ...I understand you accept Christian thought as revealed by Church Forefathers who for the most learnt from Plato and his cronies.

I am asking you to speak to the verses “themselves” and not to fall back “continually” on those things you have been taught as a child.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus was born of a woman being in the condemned line of Adam (man) for a reason, however you have failed thus far to communicate that reason as the Bible reveals him (Son of Man)

You don’t believe there was enmity in his flesh, a mind that warred against his spirit mind desiring to work within him. Jesus himself often expressed this internal battle “not my will but thine”

Until you accept Jesus was like you and I in “every” way in his physical state and form, the very foundation of how you are atoned for is without basis.

You declare Jesus was victorious – but over what?

If he couldn’t be tempted to sin

If he couldn’t really die

Then what was he victorious over?

Answer:

God in sending His son with this nature of “flesh and blood” spent 33 years operating (spiritually) on his character, perfecting a pure sound mind through suffering. This produced a morally sinless son by allowing His Father to operate even second of every day; together they put to death the “law in his members”, every day they crucified his lusts in the flesh Gal 5:23 and God (His Father) was able to hold captive every single rebellious thought and remove its power “sin”.

While his body was an offence to God because that’s where sin “reigns” or has its dominion, it was here God confronted sin with righteousness making sin powerless in a “body of sin” God destroyed its power first of Jesus and then over us by faith.

Our victory over the illness of death was cured because Jesus “came in the flesh” and overcame its propensity to sin. While his flesh was tainted with hereditary death, this was something totally outside his control in every way, for it was his Fathers will that he be born of a woman Gal 4:4.

If you say he didn’t have sinful flesh then you must also say he didn’t fight the battle that you and I fight every day, he wasn’t tempted to sin in all points like us, he was make like his brethren and him being born of a woman was a facade, a show and in my view lacks substance.

My God is powerful that he allowed his son to dwell in the body of sin and made him strong in overcoming sins power. That’s what Heb 2:14,15 is all about.

Jesus and us fear death we are under slavery to death, we pray for deliverance form death, now Jesus never and I repeat never needed to be reconciled to God, absolutely not! BUT he needed redeeming from his body of death and tasted death for all that through him we may have everlasting life.

 

justaname

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To further extend the existence of a soul near the end of every gospel it says Jesus gave up the ghost. Psalmists speak of the soul. You may not believe in a soul but my Deliver did and others who wrote the scriptures did. That is good enough for me.
rolleyes.gif


And to add I will leave you two with this.
Luke 24 : 39
Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
 

Alethos

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To further extend the existence of a soul near the end of every gospel it says Jesus gave up the ghost. Psalmists speak of the soul. You may not believe in a soul but my Deliver did and others who wrote the scriptures did. That is good enough for me.
rolleyes.gif


And to add I will leave you two with this.
Luke 24 : 39
Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I assume you believe we have in us something immortal?

If so, I suggest you study the word soul and its application in Scripture.

1 Cor 15:53 we must be "clothed" its put on from external not within us!

Alethos
 

justaname

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I assume you believe we have in us something immortal?

If so, I suggest you study the word soul and its application in Scripture.

1 Cor 15:53 we must be "clothed" its put on from external not within us!

Alethos

1 Corinthians 15 : 51 - 53
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in t he twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this mortal must put on immortality.

I am mortal. The dead shall be raised incorruptible. My God is the God of the living, I wonder if yours is.
 

Alethos

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1 Corinthians 15 : 51 - 53
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in t he twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this mortal must put on immortality.

I am mortal. The dead shall be raised incorruptible. My God is the God of the living, I wonder if yours is.

The “idea” that the righteous who are dead or alive suddenly spring into a state of incorruption is often construed by this passage.

I think this is one such example where context is essential!

Do you believe the change to spiritual nature occurs before appearing the presence of Christ, if so, in this one belief you have totally destroyed any sense of responsibility and the very fact that we “all” must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, that we may receive in body according to that we have done, whether good or bad.

Do you believe we all are change instantly without judgement? (I mustn’t assume)

I understand how you could interpret this passage like you have. I would ask you here in 1 Cor 15 is Paul teaching the dramatics affect of the resurrection; the finer details? Are you looking too narrowly at this account? Are there other passages which fill out this event?

If you don’t believe in judgement, which is extremely unscriptural, then you cannot believe in the immoral emergence doctrine.

2 Co 5:10 1 Peter 4:17,18

If logic prevails you would have immortality bestowed and then its removal upon further investigation of those things done in the body?

The whole point of being clothed with immortatily is it never ever can be removed i.e its eternal!

I think upon further investigation you will recant your above stated assumption.

However, true it is for those who are raised, judged, accepted...they will put on immortality.

Your servant by grace.



 

aspen

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To further extend the existence of a soul near the end of every gospel it says Jesus gave up the ghost. Psalmists speak of the soul. You may not believe in a soul but my Deliver did and others who wrote the scriptures did. That is good enough for me.
rolleyes.gif


And to add I will leave you two with this.
Luke 24 : 39
Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I think I need to clear up a misconception about my statement regarding my disbelief in the concept of a soul. I believe like the early church that God is spirit and that we have a spirit within us. The reason I stated that I do not believe in a soul is because Truth was trying to trap me into Plato's philosophy of the soul, which is different than the Christian concept of the spirit. Truth seems to believethat everyone who was born before him and calls themselves a Christian is in fact a Neo-Platonist, which aligns us with Paganism. The irony is, the Truth believes that the body is evil, which is a Gnostic idea, illustrating a clear belief in dualism, which in fact, proceeds Christianity by a few hundred years. Dualism and Gnosticism have no place within Christian thought.

To sum up - I believe we will have spirit bodies in Heaven just like God and the angels.
 

Alethos

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I think I need to clear up a misconception about my statement regarding my disbelief in the concept of a soul. I believe like the early church that God is spirit and that we have a spirit within us. The reason I stated that I do not believe in a soul is because Truth was trying to trap me into Plato's philosophy of the soul, which is different than the Christian concept of the spirit. Truth seems to believethat everyone who was born before him and calls themselves a Christian is in fact a Neo-Platonist, which aligns us with Paganism. The irony is, the Truth believes that the body is evil, which is a Gnostic idea, illustrating a clear belief in dualism, which in fact, proceeds Christianity by a few hundred years. Dualism and Gnosticism have no place within Christian thought.

To sum up - I believe we will have spirit bodies in Heaven just like God and the angels.

Nice summary Aspen.

I like how you interchange soul and spirit to suit your position. Whether you agree or not your belief is closer to Plato's soulism philosophies than you would like to admit.

Plato believed a human person is both body and soul. The body is the physical flesh-and-blood "shell" temporarily housing the soul. The soul is the nonmaterial aspect, made of spirit.

Which is unscriptural...there is nothing separating us from the animals (Eccl 3:19) accept our abiblity to reason morally!

I often wondered whether Plato believed animals also had immortal souls? Maybe he did!

While would like to think this teaching has no place in Christian thought, you may be naive to think that it is not! It’s everywhere in this forum...its rife, even non believers understand this to be Christian teaching.

Like Paul said manys times “I am CARNAL” that’s animal if you didn’t know.

 

Alethos

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Back on topic.

Was God just in appointing “death” as the means of redemption?

Yes, for it is flesh that sins and the lusts of the flesh must be put to death if God is to triumph in our lives. Paul speaks of himself in terms of daily crucifixion (Gal. 2:20; 6:14; 1 Cor. 15:31), by which he honours the divine requirement that through death would come life, in this God's justness is exalted.

Was it just that God require Jesus to wear the condemned nature of humanity?

Of course, for this was the only way to demonstrate the principle that only God manifest in flesh could conquer flesh. Jesus had to be in human weakness in order to redeem us. That’s why it states in Rom 8:3 2 Cor 5:21 that Jesus was required to rise above sin and be superior to it.

Was God just in bringing Jesus to the cross of sacrifice?

1 Tim 1:15 was the very purpose Jesus himself said he would not avoid the sacrifice, BUT set his face toward it. John 10:18. For Jesus knew it would be the “blood of the everlasting covenant” through which he and others would enter Glory - Heb 13:20.

What does this teach the disciples?

That the flesh and all its lusts and passions must be put to death Gal 5:24, and Jesus invited his Apostles to bear “their” cross Matt 16:24 which is conforming to his life.

The conquest of sin by Christ was through God who gave the victory 2 Cor 5:19 and teaches that we must seek similar strength if we would overcome Phil 4:13

The justness o f God was vindicated in the resurrection of His sinless Son who had sacrificed his own “will” to conform to His Fathers Acts 2:24.
 

Robbie

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Here's where I'm at with it Truth... tell me if this is basically what each of us believes...

You believe Jesus was on the cross dieing for the sin that was a part of Him...

I believe Jesus was on the cross dieing for the sins that belonged to us and He had no part in but paid the price for...
 
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Alethos

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Here's where I'm at with it Truth... tell me if this is basically what each of us believes...

You believe Jesus was on the cross dieing for the sin that was a part of Him...

I believe Jesus was on the cross dieing for the sins that belonged to us and He had no part in but paid the price for...

Hey Robbie, and if you dug a little in the the record you would see how in overcoming his nature he also overcame yours.

Good summary though!

Alethos
 

aspen

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Nice summary Aspen.

I like how you interchange soul and spirit to suit your position. Whether you agree or not your belief is closer to Plato's soulism philosophies than you would like to admit.

Plato believed a human person is both body and soul. The body is the physical flesh-and-blood "shell" temporarily housing the soul. The soul is the nonmaterial aspect, made of spirit.

Which is unscriptural...there is nothing separating us from the animals (Eccl 3:19) accept our abiblity to reason morally!

I often wondered whether Plato believed animals also had immortal souls? Maybe he did!

While would like to think this teaching has no place in Christian thought, you may be naive to think that it is not! It’s everywhere in this forum...its rife, even non believers understand this to be Christian teaching.

Like Paul said manys times “I am CARNAL” that’s animal if you didn’t know.

So does this mean that you are calling Peter is a Neo-Platonist?

1Peter 2:11
Dear friends, I urgeyou, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires,which wage war against your soul.