Did Jesus need a redeemer? Or was He The Redeemer?
- Thread starter Duckybill
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http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gal 5.24
He is not a Buddha! We cannot do what He did. It is impossible!
Jesus Christ empowers us to overcome through HIM! So we surrender our lives and bodies to Christ to be indwelt of Christ. THEN we can overcome as He did. But the spiritual darkness in the old man is crucified with Christ. He took on our condition on the cross to make atonement for sins....and He died that no sin could continue to live. He was then resurrected to give US HIS life that we should walk in it.
Gal. 2:20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
To say that the above verse is figurative is to miss the whole point and salvation to boot!
The flesh is holy! Our flesh now contains Christ. HE is living in we who are resurrected into HIS likeness.
As Jesus Christ IS so are WE in this world.
That is the gospel! The kingdom of God has come, and we are being conformed to live in it!
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb 2.9
Here you show again your ignorance. Jesus Christ is not an angel but GOD. (Are you a JW?)
That is why Jesus could not remain dead!!!! He is the Lord! He cannot die! The flesh He was carrying died! That is all! But Jesus has never died. Neither will we if we are in Him!
Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die” (John 11:25-26).
We also with ...Christ's nature within us...will leave these bodies. But these bodies are not evil....they are temporal and weak.
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom 5.12
Romans 5:12 (King James Version)
[sup]12[/sup]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Jesus is NOT of that one man! He did not sin!
Romans 5:15 (King James Version)
[sup]15[/sup]But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/James 1.13
[sup]13[/sup]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: [sup]14[/sup]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[sup]15[/sup]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
This is a convenient JW argument that Jesus is not God. Jesus Christ comes from the Father having the same nature and life as the Father. He came as the Light of the world...the Living Logos, the Lord of creation.
So Jesus Christ is not the Father but the Son. Jesus has forever become a new creation....being both fully God AND fully man. When Jesus walked this earth he walked as a man having put on the weakness of the flesh. He was tempted in this flesh but remained pure throughout.
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John 3.14
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
May the Lord forgive your lack of understanding here. Jesus was not WANTING to be crucified to get rid of His flesh. Quite the opposite!
You are REALLY rwisting the meaning of the word in order to satisfy your...well...heresy!
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb 13.20
Hebrews 13:20-21 (King James Version)
[sup]20[/sup]Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
[sup]21[/sup]Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
You are so way off here again! Jesus wasn't trying to save Himself!!!! He redeemed others!!! He could enter the holiest in the heavens because He is the Lord!!!!! His sacrifice was (is) for men.
Brother Alethos...you have a very skewed and rather sick approach to the word.
He is not a Buddha! We cannot do what He did. It is impossible!
Jesus Christ empowers us to overcome through HIM! So we surrender our lives and bodies to Christ to be indwelt of Christ. THEN we can overcome as He did. But the spiritual darkness in the old man is crucified with Christ. He took on our condition on the cross to make atonement for sins....and He died that no sin could continue to live. He was then resurrected to give US HIS life that we should walk in it.
Gal. 2:20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
To say that the above verse is figurative is to miss the whole point and salvation to boot!
The flesh is holy! Our flesh now contains Christ. HE is living in we who are resurrected into HIS likeness.
As Jesus Christ IS so are WE in this world.
That is the gospel! The kingdom of God has come, and we are being conformed to live in it!
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb 2.9
Here you show again your ignorance. Jesus Christ is not an angel but GOD. (Are you a JW?)
That is why Jesus could not remain dead!!!! He is the Lord! He cannot die! The flesh He was carrying died! That is all! But Jesus has never died. Neither will we if we are in Him!
Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die” (John 11:25-26).
We also with ...Christ's nature within us...will leave these bodies. But these bodies are not evil....they are temporal and weak.
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom 5.12
Romans 5:12 (King James Version)
[sup]12[/sup]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Jesus is NOT of that one man! He did not sin!
Romans 5:15 (King James Version)
[sup]15[/sup]But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/James 1.13
[sup]13[/sup]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: [sup]14[/sup]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[sup]15[/sup]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
This is a convenient JW argument that Jesus is not God. Jesus Christ comes from the Father having the same nature and life as the Father. He came as the Light of the world...the Living Logos, the Lord of creation.
So Jesus Christ is not the Father but the Son. Jesus has forever become a new creation....being both fully God AND fully man. When Jesus walked this earth he walked as a man having put on the weakness of the flesh. He was tempted in this flesh but remained pure throughout.
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John 3.14
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
May the Lord forgive your lack of understanding here. Jesus was not WANTING to be crucified to get rid of His flesh. Quite the opposite!
You are REALLY rwisting the meaning of the word in order to satisfy your...well...heresy!
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb 13.20
Hebrews 13:20-21 (King James Version)
[sup]20[/sup]Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
[sup]21[/sup]Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
You are so way off here again! Jesus wasn't trying to save Himself!!!! He redeemed others!!! He could enter the holiest in the heavens because He is the Lord!!!!! His sacrifice was (is) for men.
Brother Alethos...you have a very skewed and rather sick approach to the word.
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship" (Romans 12:1).
“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.”
I Corinthians 6:19-20
The fleshly body is the temple of God! It is not sinful. But it is weak. His strength is made perfect in OUR weakness! We have THIS treasure in vessels of flesh.
“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.”
I Corinthians 6:19-20
The fleshly body is the temple of God! It is not sinful. But it is weak. His strength is made perfect in OUR weakness! We have THIS treasure in vessels of flesh.
Robbie
New Member
Hey Athelos...
You're acting like it made Jesus less God because He cried but Jesus didn't cry because He was made like man... we cry because we're made like God... Jesus was about to experience the consequences of death... separation from His Father... for God's Word there could be no greater sacrifice... no greater suffering... than to be forsaken by His Father for our sins... but once again God wouldn't allow His Holy One to see corruption. Jesus isn't His half Holy and half sinner One... Jesus is His Holy One... Jesus is the lamb without spot or blemish... the reason why Jesus was clean both inside and out is because if the inside is clean the outside is clean also... so Jesus didn't pay the price for His sin... He paid the price for ours... that's why Jesus was still in His flesh after He conquered death... because He was completely Holy... He is completely Holy... He is the Word of God... He is the light... He is the Truth... He is the Holy One... He is the Lamb without spot or blemish... He is the Lord our Righteousness... He is the exact image of God and God has no darkness in Him.
And as far as Paul... I just listen to what Paul says about himself... so when He says he's not yet perfected and doesn't understand certain stuff I take it as exactly that and don't think beyond what he wrote... and yes I don't hold Paul equal to Jesus because Paul isn't the revelation of the Father... Jesus is... Jesus is the name above all other names... I respect Paul, Moses and Elijah... but Jesus is His beloved Son, His Word, and the only way to the Father so I hear Him...
You're acting like it made Jesus less God because He cried but Jesus didn't cry because He was made like man... we cry because we're made like God... Jesus was about to experience the consequences of death... separation from His Father... for God's Word there could be no greater sacrifice... no greater suffering... than to be forsaken by His Father for our sins... but once again God wouldn't allow His Holy One to see corruption. Jesus isn't His half Holy and half sinner One... Jesus is His Holy One... Jesus is the lamb without spot or blemish... the reason why Jesus was clean both inside and out is because if the inside is clean the outside is clean also... so Jesus didn't pay the price for His sin... He paid the price for ours... that's why Jesus was still in His flesh after He conquered death... because He was completely Holy... He is completely Holy... He is the Word of God... He is the light... He is the Truth... He is the Holy One... He is the Lamb without spot or blemish... He is the Lord our Righteousness... He is the exact image of God and God has no darkness in Him.
And as far as Paul... I just listen to what Paul says about himself... so when He says he's not yet perfected and doesn't understand certain stuff I take it as exactly that and don't think beyond what he wrote... and yes I don't hold Paul equal to Jesus because Paul isn't the revelation of the Father... Jesus is... Jesus is the name above all other names... I respect Paul, Moses and Elijah... but Jesus is His beloved Son, His Word, and the only way to the Father so I hear Him...
Alethos
New Member
Hold on Robbie, you are all over the place here. You believe Jesus is God right? (yes) But you are saying God was separated from Himself and that Jesus/God experienced death but He couldn’t really die? He couldn’t ever sin, and by implication couldn’t really be tempted. If you believe Jesus is God then how could he pray to Himself with strong crying and tears to save Him from death when really he cannot die anyway?
Your doctrine makes a mockery of the sufferings of Jesus and a mockery of their victory over sin and death. You say Jesus was clean inside and out so why did he need his own cleansing blood to enter the most holy? Heb 13:20
Why did Jesus need his own blood if as you say he was 100% pure in every way?
If Jesus was made lower than the angels and the angels do God works, then would that not make Jesus lower than God...But you say Jesus is God?
You say Jesus conquered death but deny he was under deaths dominion?
If we look at 2 Cor 5:21 as you believe it to be this is what it looks like
[sup]21[/sup] God made (God) who had no sin to be sin[sup][a][/sup] for us, so that in him (God) we might become the righteousness of God.
So you are actually saying that God made Himself Sin!
Let’s try another Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own (God) in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh
This is utter foolishness, because you deny the flesh and blood nature of Jesus Christ and hold onto a doctrine which cannot fit into that nature.
You will “never” be able to place the deity into a “body of sin” “Sins Flesh” Flesh and blood” “made a curse” “sinful flesh” and on and on...while you ignor the many Scriptures that show us Jesus was like us in absolutely every way physically yet without moral sin...how can you ever understand Jesus Christ?
This far you cannot.
You would be doing very well to imitate Paul he is Christ to the Gentiles...without him you wouldn’t know Christ.
Also, do you have an answer regarding Jesus being redeemed from his flesh and blood nature...I guess you would say no!
The evidence for Jesus/God in the Bible is incredibly powerful.
Jeremiah 17:10 (ESV)
[sup]10 [/sup]“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”
And again in the NT:
Revelation 2:18-28 (ESV)
[sup]18 [/sup]“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. [sup]19 [/sup]“ ‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. [sup]20 [/sup]But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. [sup]21 [/sup]I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. [sup]22 [/sup]Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, [sup]23 [/sup]and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. [sup]24 [/sup]But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. [sup]25 [/sup]Only hold fast what you have until I come. [sup]26 [/sup]The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, [sup]27 [/sup]and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. [sup]28 [/sup]And I will give him the morning star.
Robbie
New Member
I don't make a mockery of anything guy... I just don't agree with your beliefs... and because you're kind of an egomaniac about your beliefs you freak out when people won't submit to them... but here's the deal dude... they're your beliefs... and I honestly think they're kind of bull... it's like who cares if you can pull a sentence out of Paul's writing that agrees with you... does the revelation of Jesus Christ agree with you? It's like you can pull sentences out of the bible that say we should hate our Mother, that we should kill our kids when they're disobedient, that women shouldn't be allowed to speak, that men shouldn't have long hair, that if you sin once after being saved you're condemned, and on and on and on... So to me you're the same as people that run away with those scriptures all high and mighty and form religions out of them and then freak out when others won't join them in their out of context understanding. No thanks man... I've heard your beliefs and that's fine but you're not the kind of person that just shares personal beliefs... you're the kind of person that ram their beliefs down other people throats and then starts freaking out on people who won't agree with you.... haha... seriously so annoying man.
haha... and yeah... the testimonies of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John that actually carry the Words of Jesus aren't worth anything... and the people I've known that shared Jesus with me based on knowing Him personally that have never even read Paul are worthless to... thank God for Paul... because without being able to pull sentences out of his letters I'd never understand that the Word of God is sinful...bahahhahahhaha.... what a joke dude...
Man... I'm at the point that I don't even care what you say homey because it's starting to feel like you're just an arrogant know it all that doesn't know... my person beliefs are based on actually reading the bible in context and holding Christ above all as the revelation of the Father... I hear Him as the Father commanded John on the mountain top and not mere men... and Paul might be your christ... but He aint mine... Jesus is my savior... The Holy One that's above all...
So here's the deal dude... He suffered the consequences of our sins... not His... you keep wanting me to believe that Jesus suffered the consequences of His own sin... but if that's the case He wasn't the lamb without blemish that was able to pay for mine... so you can take that garbage and flush it... because you'll never get me to believe that the sin He paid the price for was His own... the sins Jesus paid the price for was humanities alone... period...
Now so far I've seen you in conflict with a lot of people on this board about this topic and I've seen you try to ram your beliefs down their throat and pretty much everyone wants nothing to do with them. Maybe you should question yourself whether the problem is actually with everyone else or if maybe just maybe the problem is actually with you.
I know Ducky... Jesus is God's Word... God's Word is God the same way my word is me... and don't worry... no matter how hard Athelos tries to ram his beliefs down my throat they'll never enter my mouth...
haha... and yeah... the testimonies of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John that actually carry the Words of Jesus aren't worth anything... and the people I've known that shared Jesus with me based on knowing Him personally that have never even read Paul are worthless to... thank God for Paul... because without being able to pull sentences out of his letters I'd never understand that the Word of God is sinful...bahahhahahhaha.... what a joke dude...
Man... I'm at the point that I don't even care what you say homey because it's starting to feel like you're just an arrogant know it all that doesn't know... my person beliefs are based on actually reading the bible in context and holding Christ above all as the revelation of the Father... I hear Him as the Father commanded John on the mountain top and not mere men... and Paul might be your christ... but He aint mine... Jesus is my savior... The Holy One that's above all...
So here's the deal dude... He suffered the consequences of our sins... not His... you keep wanting me to believe that Jesus suffered the consequences of His own sin... but if that's the case He wasn't the lamb without blemish that was able to pay for mine... so you can take that garbage and flush it... because you'll never get me to believe that the sin He paid the price for was His own... the sins Jesus paid the price for was humanities alone... period...
Now so far I've seen you in conflict with a lot of people on this board about this topic and I've seen you try to ram your beliefs down their throat and pretty much everyone wants nothing to do with them. Maybe you should question yourself whether the problem is actually with everyone else or if maybe just maybe the problem is actually with you.
I know Ducky... Jesus is God's Word... God's Word is God the same way my word is me... and don't worry... no matter how hard Athelos tries to ram his beliefs down my throat they'll never enter my mouth...
I believe what Truth is teaching is that Jesus was....
100% man
AND (wait for it...)
100% man!
He sees Jesus as a kind of Buddha who we are supposed to emulate in our flesh.
But was Jesus just a realy good guy? Or the Son of God?
Truth then states that Jesus can't be God or else He would be praying to Himself?:mellow:
Well that shows something doesn't it?
The word says...
[sup]1[/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [sup]2[/sup]The same was in the beginning with God.
[sup]3[/sup]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[sup]4[/sup]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[sup]5[/sup]And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[sup]6[/sup]There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[sup]7[/sup]The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[sup]8[/sup]He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[sup]9[/sup]That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[sup]10[/sup]He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[sup]11[/sup]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[sup]12[/sup]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[sup]13[/sup]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[sup]14[/sup]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[sup]15[/sup]John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[sup]16[/sup]And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[sup]17[/sup]For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
[sup]18[/sup]No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
100% man
AND (wait for it...)
100% man!
He sees Jesus as a kind of Buddha who we are supposed to emulate in our flesh.
But was Jesus just a realy good guy? Or the Son of God?
Truth then states that Jesus can't be God or else He would be praying to Himself?:mellow:
Well that shows something doesn't it?
The word says...
[sup]1[/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [sup]2[/sup]The same was in the beginning with God.
[sup]3[/sup]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[sup]4[/sup]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[sup]5[/sup]And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[sup]6[/sup]There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[sup]7[/sup]The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[sup]8[/sup]He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[sup]9[/sup]That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[sup]10[/sup]He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[sup]11[/sup]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[sup]12[/sup]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[sup]13[/sup]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[sup]14[/sup]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[sup]15[/sup]John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[sup]16[/sup]And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[sup]17[/sup]For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
[sup]18[/sup]No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Truthiness
Why do you continue to bother with us mere mortals? All you have accomplished here is to spend weeks arguing your point with various people; making it clear that your belief system trumps everyone who disagrees with you, including Church Fathers; and, finally, when you get to the point of completely irritating everyone you've ever talked to, you finish off your conversation by pointing out how stupid we all are. Why not jump to the chase? We have all rejected your Jehovah's Witness model of exegesis, so we must be stupid or evil according to your logic; knock the dust off your feet already!
Why do you continue to bother with us mere mortals? All you have accomplished here is to spend weeks arguing your point with various people; making it clear that your belief system trumps everyone who disagrees with you, including Church Fathers; and, finally, when you get to the point of completely irritating everyone you've ever talked to, you finish off your conversation by pointing out how stupid we all are. Why not jump to the chase? We have all rejected your Jehovah's Witness model of exegesis, so we must be stupid or evil according to your logic; knock the dust off your feet already!
Robbie
New Member
Truth just picks and chooses sentences out of Paul's writings and runs away with them...
It' like Paul also said, "Flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom of God"
Does that mean I should ignore the whole testimony at the end of Luke after Jesus was risen where He says, "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." and then is carried up to heaven still in His flesh...
Jesus also says He who eats His flesh abides in Him... does that mean Jesus want's us to eat sin? haha
and that He who eats sin abides in Him?
It' like Paul also said, "Flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom of God"
Does that mean I should ignore the whole testimony at the end of Luke after Jesus was risen where He says, "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." and then is carried up to heaven still in His flesh...
Jesus also says He who eats His flesh abides in Him... does that mean Jesus want's us to eat sin? haha
and that He who eats sin abides in Him?
Alethos
New Member
Robbie,
If you speak against the verses, whether quoted together or separately and you discourage them from being raised (run away with in your terms) what else can be said?...you are not willing to address the passages as they speak, and you don’t want them quoted?? My hands are tied, you remove our common ground and there remains no foundation to work from.
Personally I believe Jesus needed to be redeemed from his flesh and blood nature and this is clearly what the Scriptures teach. I understand how making Jesus God conflicts with this teaching, so I again only assume you will hold onto your belief that Jesus did not need redeeming, he didn’t really taste death for us, nor was he really tempted in any meaningful way, he didn’t really have flesh and blood.
In many ways he is vastly different Jesus than the one taught by the Apostle Paul but that is my opinion and understanding from 2 Cor 2:51 Rom 8:3 Heb 13:20 Heb 2:14,15 Gal 4:4 All of Rom chapter 6,7,8 all etc.
You have made this very clear.
Alethos
A JW once told me that God was going to destroy me because I believe in Jesus/God. I noticed the JW connection too.
Alethos
New Member
So what you are saying here is you no longer sin? Your flesh is holy? Right! And yet you will die? Rom 6:23
you don’t wrestle with the flesh and its passions? If your flesh is holy I suppose you wouldn’t.
So from Adam you are saying Jesus was not in his line? That the same death which Adam passed onto all people was not passed onto Christ?
That’s the whole point of Jesus being in the flesh that he could overcome the condemnation which was upon him and all mankind! That’s the substance of this argument. You say the condition of sin in the flesh was not given to Jesus Christ I say the Scriptures clearly say he did receive a fallen body, one which could die and be tempted to sin!
You need to go back to 2 Cor 5:21 Rom 8:3 Gal 4:4 and anywhere that it states that Jesus came in the flesh in the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Read the beginning of the Gospels, its everywhere plastered all over the Gospels and Epistles. JESUS CAME IN THE CONDENMED LIVE OF ADAM!!!!
This is interesting because firstly I am not JW!
Here is your problem.
Was Jesus tempted in all points yet without sin? Heb 4:17
If you agree with Heb 4:17
Then you must also agree with James 1:13,14,15
If he could be tempted it means he must have a nature which could sin you cannot avoid this truth. If Jesus could not be tempted to sin then he did not have flesh you yourself and the Word has lied.
You cannot have it both ways. He is either flesh and blood and is able to sin also able to be tempted in the flesh or he is something else...but NOT FLESH.
You idea (false) of Jesus being Fully God and Fully man is not able to fit into Heb 2:14,15 2 Cor 5:21 Rom 8:3 Gal 4:4 etc etc ....
For like you so aptly stated God cannot be tempted But wait for it...Jesus could and was and overcame.
EVERY MAN (including Jesus) IS TEMPTED WHEN HE IS DRAWN AWAY BY HIS OWN LUST!!!
Where does lust come from?
Flesh – you know the stuff with blood running through it..its weak and prone to sin!
And that leads us beautifully into John 3:14
Heb 13:20,21 Shows the mechanism used to raise Jesus Christ (yes)
What was that mechanism?
“through” the blood of the everlasting covenant
Without the blood and the destruction of sin and death which was achieved in that blood Jesus could NOT be raised!
Think of it this way.
Jesus was the firstborn raised from the dead (yes actual death nothingness, silence..he didn’t go to heaven, he didnt go the hell...he was in the grave three days a dead corpse. It was God his Father who raised him and changed him from flesh to spirit.
Again what enable God to do this?
The blood of the everlasting covenant.
Now I will leave you with one simple question.
What is the blood of the everlasting covenant? And what was in the blood that enabled him to be raised?
What made Jesus blood different than yours? What did he do in his flesh that you havnt?
Alethos
Alethos
New Member
Robbie,
The irony in your mocking comes very close to the truth...if only you open your mind a little wider.
Why does Jesus ask us to eat his flesh? What did he do in his flesh that you have not done or able to do!?
Heb 2:14,15 just to give you a little clue.
Alethos
Aspen, firstly, I believe I have told you in the past I am not a JW. In terms of mere mortals, we all suffer in the flesh, as did the Master, though you reject this truth. If truth has irritated you then “good” so it should, in fact, it should be like a sledgehammer which smashes your conscience, however if your conscience is seared you will have no feeling or passion for truth nor the Word. Yes Aspen you lack such passion.
On the point of you being stupid or evil?
John 15:6
Alethos
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Ignatius addressed several heresies, including Gnosticism and Docetism. The basis of these heresies was the pagan belief in dualism: spirit is good, flesh is evil. They recognized an eternal conflict between good and evil, mind and matter, idea and object. According to the Gnostics, Satan is the co-eternal opposite of the good God. With this view of the spirit world, people would be likely to say that God is limited in power and perhaps in knowledge, and is doing the best he can with a sinful world. This heresy separated the divine Christ from the human Jesus, and taught that the divine Christ came upon the human Jesus at His baptism and departed just before His death. According to Doceticism, since God is spirit, and spirit is good, but flesh is evil, then if Jesus is God, He could not have taken on sinful flesh. The Jesus that lived among men and died on the cross was simply a phantom with an appearance like flesh. Ignatius argued that if Jesus did not truly take on human flesh and die as a man, then He could not have made atonement for our sins (Hebrews 2:9, 9:12,10:12). His letters stressed the importance of communion as a means of stressing the reality of Jesus' humanity. He believed that if Jesus did not truly shed His blood, then His martyrdom was meaningless.
Alethos
New Member
Interesing Aspen!
[sup]1[/sup] Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— [sup]2[/sup] the gospel he (God) promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures [sup]3[/sup] regarding his Son (that's Jesus if you didnt know), who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, [sup]4[/sup] and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power[sup][b][/sup] by his resurrection from the dead: Rom 1:1,2,3,4
Wow, its all here boys and girls!
We have a Gospel belonging to God
We have a promise of a son (Jesus) which those condemend men foretold would come
We even have Jesus being a descendant of David, you know the fleshly king of Israel, he is dead in the grave awaiting the resuerrection.
His power and position in the Heavens was appointed to him HOW? by a resurrection from the dead.
Aspen, you ought to reconsider the reality of Jesus' humanity..you could learn a lot...if you enquired.
Jesus needed to share in our humanity to be asuitable atonement for those held under sins force.
Heb 2:14,15 How does it go "all those who lived in fear of death" Even Jesus did the same Heb 5:7
Was Jesus in slavery to death? Heb 2:9
Alethos
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
You are the master of picking and choosing information, taking it completely out of context and using it to support your preconceived ideas. It is really amazing to watch! I could say 'the green frog hopped down the road" And you would scream 'SEE the road is sloped DOWNWARD! The frog proves it!'
Of course Ignatius was stressing Christ's humanity (not His sinful flesh) because he was refuting the heresy of dualism - a false doctrine that claims the spirit is good and the flesh is evil. That was the part you missed in the paragraph. Ignatius believed that Christ came in the flesh and remained sinless - that is the entire point of the article.
But do not let that stop you!
Of course Ignatius was stressing Christ's humanity (not His sinful flesh) because he was refuting the heresy of dualism - a false doctrine that claims the spirit is good and the flesh is evil. That was the part you missed in the paragraph. Ignatius believed that Christ came in the flesh and remained sinless - that is the entire point of the article.
But do not let that stop you!
Alethos
New Member
One needs to take a great deal of what you quote out of context to find truth. BTW we again see you quoting someone elses work?
Whats with that?
Do you believe the flesh is good? How can something whcih dies be good? God is a God of the living not the dead...the Spirit is good yes, but what of the flesh?
Do you have your own understanding or shall we read wiki again?
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:18 and Jesus Mark 10:18
What was Paul speaking about Aspen?
Robbie
New Member
It means Paul wasn't perfect... pretty simple... haha...
There's something someone used to say to me when I was younger when I'd over complicate things to the point of error, "Keep it simple stupid" haha... that was almost as good as when my grandpa would smack me and say, "That's for what you're gonna do" hahhahahahahah
There's something someone used to say to me when I was younger when I'd over complicate things to the point of error, "Keep it simple stupid" haha... that was almost as good as when my grandpa would smack me and say, "That's for what you're gonna do" hahhahahahahah
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