Did Jesus need a redeemer? Or was He The Redeemer?

[aspen]

One needs to take a great deal of what you quote out of context to find truth. BTW we again see you quoting someone elses work?

Whats with that?

Do you believe the flesh is good? How can something whcih dies be good? God is a God of the living not the dead...the Spirit is good yes, but what of the flesh?

Do you have your own understanding or shall we read wiki again?

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:18 and Jesus Mark 10:18

What was Paul speaking about Aspen?

Here is some information you might be able to use........students quote scholars - they do not simply pull ideas out of thin air. BTW I use The Ethereal Library for most of the information I gather online about the Church Fathers and Christian Mysticism.

As far as the flesh being good - we were created good - that includes the flesh and the spirit. Actually, Jewish people and the Early Church didn't even distinguish between the body and spirit. Then, through our own sinful actions we were cursed - we were subjected to spiritual death, which also manifested in physical death. It has been pointed out to you many times that you are confusing Paul's use of the word flesh (being ruled by our lower passions) with the body - yet you continue to deny this fact, which has been part of the Christian narrative since PAUL.

The fact that you rely on your own understanding of the Bible is not a virtue! It is considered foolish and arrogant, by theologians and academics, alike. Dismissing over 2,000 years of study is so bombastic and reckless, it makes me dizzy!

In addition, the very fact that you continue to deny the true nature of God places you outside Christianity. Once again, all heresies and Christian cults begin by distorting the true nature of God as Triune.

So please spend some time thinking about where you have gone astray - pray for wisdom and understanding and consider reading some church history, opening a commentary or taking a class in Christian theology.

I certainly do not claim to be an expert in theology, but the issues you raise are so basic, seriously! Determining the role of sanctification in salvation is an example of a contentious issue amongst Christian theologians; considering whether or not baptism is symbolic or a necessary part of justification is paramount in making an informed decision concerning church membership and framing our relationship with God; both issues are legitimate. Arguing over the word 'flesh', as if you alone have made the discovery of a lifetime is quaint and amusing at best, and heretical at worse; especially when it ends in the erosion of Christ's deity.

I am not a person who looks down on people who are self-taught, but clearly you are dangerous and should be viewed only as a cautionary tale of someone too absorbed in his own understanding of the Bible to allow the light of truth to enter his mind and heart! Let alone the fact that you are trying to teach....Lord have mercy on us all!

 

[Robbie]

Where did you gain this reasoning from Athelos? Were you reading the bible for yourself? or did someone point these scriptures and ideas out to you?

I don't want to go back and forth with you anymore about this man... I can feel my ego kind of inflating about it and I'd rather relate with you about stuff we do agree on than go on and on about things we don't.

 

[Alethos]

Here is some information you might be able to use........students quote scholars - they do not simply pull ideas out of thin air. BTW I use The Ethereal Library for most of the information I gather online about the Church Fathers and Christian Mysticism.

As far as the flesh being good - we were created good - that includes the flesh and the spirit. Actually, Jewish people and the Early Church didn't even distinguish between the body and spirit. Then, through our own sinful actions we were cursed - we were subjected to spiritual death, which also manifested in physical death. It has been pointed out to you many times that you are confusing Paul's use of the word flesh (being ruled by our lower passions) with the body - yet you continue to deny this fact, which has been part of the Christian narrative since PAUL.

Thanks Aspen for at least providing an explanation of your beliefs.

If you read Gen 3:17 you will find that God actually cursed the ground, the substance of all living. It is important that you define the difference between a curse (which will be lifted upon Christs return) compared to the passing of a death sentence. Within Adam and Eve a change occurred in their nature which caused a dying process to begin Rom 6:23. Paul calls this Rom 7:23 it is this law which determines our death and it is this law where sin reigns until death. Paul also refers to this inherent law with us as no good thing Rom 7:18 notice he even defines this law as being in the Flesh!!!

Because you believe in the immortal soul, which by the way never appears in the Bible no not once. However this belief which you say is a spiritual death is not mentioned anywhere in the beginning. If you are referring to Adam having the breath of life being breathed into him which caused him to be a living creature, then this is not immortal in any sense.

Only God hath immortality 1 Tim 1:17 but that is another subject.

Rom 6:6 Speaks of the "old man" symbolic of our physical flesh being crucified with Christ.

Rom 8:10 Speak of how our fleshly bodies are dead because of sin - see the connection?

Rom 8:3 Speaks of sinful flesh - sin reigns in the flesh, sin owns the flesh - you will notice how he states sin "in" the flesh.

Gal 6:8 He who practices the desires of the flesh again the law in his members is activated produces sin.

Eph 2:3 States our position before Christ - where we lived in the lustful flesh

Eph 6:5 We can be servants of the flesh

Phil 3:3 We can have confidence in the flesh

Col 1:21,22 Here we see the "body of Jesus flesh"..."through death"

Col 2:11 "Body of the sins of the flesh"

1 Pet 1:24 teach the corruption of the flesh as grass - again sins dominion over flesh

1 Pet 3:8 Here Jesus was put to death "in" the flesh

1 Peter 3:21 FILTH of the flesh

1 Peter 4:1 CHRIST SUFFERED IN THE FLESH and wait for it...arm yourselves with the same mind (Spirit) This is how Jesus overcame the inherited nature, corrupt and dying, he took to himself his Fathers mind and conquered every temptation destroying the inherent power within his members. 1 Peter 4:2<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

2 Peter 2:10 flesh is unclean

2 Peter 2:18 lusts of the flesh

1 John 2:16 - ALL THAT IS THE WORLD...sin in the flesh!

Heb 10:20 Question...How did provide a new in living way through Jesus Flesh?

Whatever you and I believe about Jesus nature, the Scriptures continually refer to it whenever salvation is mentioned, it is always spoken of in relation to the atonement.

This by itself forgetting about me, my personality which I know can be abrasive (something I need to work on) we should be alarmed at how many references to his nature connect to sin and flesh and blood and our salvation.

Whatever happened in Jesus’ flesh both during his life and one the cross must be “very” important for us to understand.

I am sure you would agree?

Consider how many people referred to Jesus as “thou son of David” Matt 1:1,20; 9:27; 12:23 and so on...

Jesus connection with the line of fallen man is profound throughout all Scripture. One cannot ignore this or explain it away. Rom 1:3 defines these statements connecting him with the same flesh and blood as David.

Aspen, I appreciate your kind words, I do. Searching for truth is not easy...it requires one to approach the word without any preconceived ideas. One must look deeply and test the scriptures against themselves to establish truth facts about all sorts of topics, doctrine, prophecy, themes, character studies etc.

Finally can I ask you a question about what the Apostle Paul said about his flesh?

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

Do you think Jesus could have said this during his mortal life on earth?

for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Of course we both agree that through the power of the Spirit of God he always chose his Fathers will so able to perform always that which is good and perfect.

I would be interested in others input to this question also? I think it will crystallise our collect view of Jesus.

In the Masters service

Shane

 

[Alethos]

Where did you gain this reasoning from Athelos? Were you reading the bible for yourself? or did someone point these scriptures and ideas out to you?

I don't want to go back and forth with you anymore about this man... I can feel my ego kind of inflating about it and I'd rather relate with you about stuff we do agree on than go on and on about things we don't.

Robbie,

Unwind and leave the weight of these matters to God and His Son. We cannot change the Word of God who spoke through 40 authors, over 1600 years to deliver us this book. Men and woman were burnt at the stake, sawn asunder and persecuted to the death so we can sit here in the comfort of our homes (or on the beach ) discussing/debating these heavenly lessons.

Why do I care so much?

This reminds of the time when Jesus overturned the money changers in the Temple. Warning: Alethos is about to teach...thought you might like that!

Psa 69:8 I (Jesus) am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.

Psa 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

Enter the spirit of the Lord brother and understand the righteous passion and zealousness for God and his family.

This is a prophecy of the Lords ministry and his enthusiastic cleansing of his Father house see John 2:11, 17.

It’s all about how Jesus was alienated from his brothers and his family. Notice where its states “consumes me”, every time Jesus felt rejected by his brothers he felt like a "burn offering" being consumed on the alter (see Lev 1:9)

Now thats a hard saying!

Jesus showed an amazing love unrequited and rejected by all, but he stuck it out, he didn’t drift away or complain he maintained divine disciplines which meant finishing the duties at hand. The Spirit moved him powerfully and did he have incentive Robbie, whether you agree or not Heb 5:7 a slave is motivated but the lashings of his masters whip and it pleased God to bruise him Isa 53:10. And not once did he feel resentment towards his Father, nor those brothers who desired not to hear his words. Robbie, the Master’s zeal was like fire in his bones with such intense love for the Father that this zeal could only come from a life of study, meditation upon his Father s Words and Works.

Robbie, don’t discourage me man…enter the Word and delight in the perfect law of liberty Psa 119:16 James 1:25...My love for you is seen in my willingness to reveal those gems as found in the body of my Lord. A body he nailed to a tree, destroying sin and death for all who would look upon him (the offered serpent on a pole in the wilderness) John 3:14

Take a look brother..its not pretty, pretty ugly, but the truth hurts, if you are prepared to look. Jer 23:29

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

This thread has been very interesting. It's great to see that Satan's efforts to make our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ sinful have been seen for what they are, 'doctrines of demons'.

 

[justaname]

We have Jesus' words to rely on here. He says I will raise this temple in three days, not my Father will. Check your scripture. I hope this helps and may the Holy Spirit guide you all back home, not our own knowledge.

 

[Alethos]

We have Jesus' words to rely on here. He says I will raise this temple in three days, not my Father will. Check your scripture. I hope this helps and may the Holy Spirit guide you all back home, not our own knowledge.

Hi Justaname,

Its been a little while.

Just in case you don’t know; a dead man cannot restore himself to life, this you must admit, but here in John 2:19 we see Jesus who in obedience to his Fathers commands had already been given a title and name of resurrection, as you would know death could not take hold of him permanently, in this he had great confidence in his God, so in this way, yes he could speak of his resurrection being his own act.

Imagine if we could have that same belief and confidence as Jesus? You of course know and it is plainly taught by all Christians that God, the Father, was the power by which Jesus was raised from the dead: Acts 2:30,32,36; 3:15,26; 4:10; etc.

By the way Justaname did you notice how Jesus was using the tabernacle analogy to speak of his death and resurrection, but they (Pharisees) twisted it to make it into a literal statement, that’s because it suited them to do so. All in order to find charges to lay against him.

Most Christians I hope would see this as a figure speech of the lords, but some “maybe” like you have taken it literally in order to win a debate? Would you prefer to believe that Jesus spoke of his dying as NOT really dying? Than say believe that Jesus actually being fully dead, he relied soley on His Father power to raise him from the dead?

Alethos

 

[justaname]

Robbie,

Unwind and leave the weight of these matters to God and His Son. We cannot change the Word of God who spoke through 40 authors, over 1600 years to deliver us this book. Men and woman were burnt at the stake, sawn asunder and persecuted to the death so we can sit here in the comfort of our homes (or on the beach ) discussing/debating these heavenly lessons.

Why do I care so much?

This reminds of the time when Jesus overturned the money changers in the Temple. Warning: Alethos is about to teach...thought you might like that!

Psa 69:8 I (Jesus) am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.

Psa 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

Enter the spirit of the Lord brother and understand the righteous passion and zealousness for God and his family.

This is a prophecy of the Lords ministry and his enthusiastic cleansing of his Father house see John 2:11, 17.

It’s all about how Jesus was alienated from his brothers and his family. Notice where its states “consumes me”, every time Jesus felt rejected by his brothers he felt like a "burn offering" being consumed on the alter (see Lev 1:9)

Now thats a hard saying!

Jesus showed an amazing love unrequited and rejected by all, but he stuck it out, he didn’t drift away or complain he maintained divine disciplines which meant finishing the duties at hand. The Spirit moved him powerfully and did he have incentive Robbie, whether you agree or not Heb 5:7 a slave is motivated but the lashings of his masters whip and it pleased God to bruise him Isa 53:10. And not once did he feel resentment towards his Father, nor those brothers who desired not to hear his words. Robbie, the Master’s zeal was like fire in his bones with such intense love for the Father that this zeal could only come from a life of study, meditation upon his Father s Words and Works.

Robbie, don’t discourage me man…enter the Word and delight in the perfect law of liberty Psa 119:16 James 1:25...My love for you is seen in my willingness to reveal those gems as found in the body of my Lord. A body he nailed to a tree, destroying sin and death for all who would look upon him (the offered serpent on a pole in the wilderness) John 3:14

Take a look brother..its not pretty, pretty ugly, but the truth hurts, if you are prepared to look. Jer 23:29

Alethos

From this post are you saying Jesus wrote the Psalm???

From my understanding it was David's Psalm. The things he suffered at his time and his experience is what he wrote about. He is known as a King. Search Isaiah for things of prophetic nature, or maybe revelation.

From my own personal experience when I submitted to Jesus my entire world turned against me. My mother and dad, wife and kids, co workers and even strangers. The prince of the air attacked me from every corner and person I knew, and still attacks me to this day. If you are not born again you will never experience this. The Kingdom of Heaven is a gift given by grace. There is no back or side door entrance. There is nothing you can learn to gain entrance. You must submit your will to the Father and Son and in turn the Holy Spirit will be your deposit sealing your entrance giving proof, and bearing witness, through all the courts above. This is why only one name is proclaimed above all through out all the heavens, earth, and below, Jesus Christ. Simply believe in the name and grace is given, Jesus does all the work.

 

[Episkopos]

Heb 13:20,21 Shows the mechanism used to raise Jesus Christ (yes)

What was that mechanism?

“through” the blood of the everlasting covenant

Without the blood and the destruction of sin and death which was achieved in that blood Jesus could NOT be raised!

Think of it this way.

Jesus was the firstborn raised from the dead (yes actual death nothingness, silence..he didn’t go to heaven, he didnt go the hell...he was in the grave three days a dead corpse. It was God his Father who raised him and changed him from flesh to spirit.
Again what enable God to do this?

The blood of the everlasting covenant.

Now I will leave you with one simple question.

What is the blood of the everlasting covenant? And what was in the blood that enabled him to be raised?

What made Jesus blood different than yours? What did he do in his flesh that you havnt?

Alethos

The blood of the everlasting covenant came from the fact that Jesus Christ is fully God AS WELL as fully man.

If Jesus is just a man then you are still dead in your sins....yes! ...YOUR sins!

A Christian disciple seeks to walk in our Master's life....that is divine life. The life He lived on this earth.

Jesus Christ knew NO sin, yet you deny this.

The bible says ALL men have sinned. But Jesus Christ is no ordinary man. He is Christ the Lord, the Son of the living God. Only as such could His blood bring atonement for all the people.

Also Jesus was raised in the flesh...not spirit as you say! Jesus was raised BODILY. Jesus became mortal...yes... but His body was holy! He was raised in that holy body! You are so off in your formulations.

Of course Jesus was tempted. Satan was tempted as well and this WITHOUT a human body!

But Jesus overcame temptations because His nature was different. That is how we can also overcome....by His faith in His nature. A disciple is learning to walk in HIS nature.

Also it was not His blood that allowed Him to be raised!!!! (where do you get this stuff?)

Jesus took back His own life! Death cannot hold divinity! Divinity trumps death. THAT is the victory of Christ within us. We have moved from death to life...the life of God in us!

[sup]17[/sup] “The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. [sup]18[/sup] No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”

The blood of Christ is a sacrifice for others. NO ONE SACRIFICES HIMSELF...FOR HIMSELF...THAT IS NOT A SACRIFICE.

This is not about body parts...it is about WHO JESUS IS! He is the living manna that came from heaven! He is the door to life. He is the Light of men!

 

[Alethos]

From this post are you saying Jesus wrote the Psalm???

From my understanding it was David's Psalm. The things he suffered at his time and his experience is what he wrote about. He is known as a King. Search Isaiah for things of prophetic nature, or maybe revelation.

From my own personal experience when I submitted to Jesus my entire world turned against me. My mother and dad, wife and kids, co workers and even strangers. The prince of the air attacked me from every corner and person I knew, and still attacks me to this day. If you are not born again you will never experience this. The Kingdom of Heaven is a gift given by grace. There is no back or side door entrance. There is nothing you can learn to gain entrance. You must submit your will to the Father and Son and in turn the Holy Spirit will be your deposit sealing your entrance giving proof, and bearing witness, through all the courts above. This is why only one name is proclaimed above all through out all the heavens, earth, and below, Jesus Christ. Simply believe in the name and grace is given, Jesus does all the work.

The Psalm is Messianic...do you know what that means? (said in sincerity)

Heb 13:20,21 Shows the mechanism used to raise Jesus Christ (yes)



The blood of the everlasting covenant came from the fact that Jesus Christ is fully God AS WELL as fully man.

If Jesus is just a man then you are still dead in your sins....yes! ...YOUR sins!

A Christian disciple seeks to walk in our Master's life....that is divine life. The life He lived on this earth.

Jesus Christ knew NO sin, yet you deny this.

The bible says ALL men have sinned. But Jesus Christ is no ordinary man. He is Christ the Lord, the Son of the living God. Only as such could His blood bring atonement for all the people.

Also Jesus was raised in the flesh...not spirit as you say! Jesus was raised BODILY. Jesus became mortal...yes... but His body was holy! He was raised in that holy body! You are so off in your formulations.

Of course Jesus was tempted. Satan was tempted as well and this WITHOUT a human body!

But Jesus overcame temptations because His nature was different. That is how we can also overcome....by His faith in His nature. A disciple is learning to walk in HIS nature.

Also it was not His blood that allowed Him to be raised!!!! (where do you get this stuff?)

Jesus took back His own life! Death cannot hold divinity! Divinity trumps death. THAT is the victory of Christ within us. We have moved from death to life...the life of God in us!

[sup]17[/sup] “The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. [sup]18[/sup] No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”

The blood of Christ is a sacrifice for others. NO ONE SACRIFICES HIMSELF...FOR HIMSELF...THAT IS NOT A SACRIFICE.

This is not about body parts...it is about WHO JESUS IS! He is the living manna that came from heaven! He is the door to life. He is the Light of men!

I agree with your statement regarding Jesus being raised bodily my point was that no longer does he have blood running through his veins...he lives by the Spirit. His body is now energised by Spirit.

But it was a nice pick up and I thank you for clarifying that point.

However, you haven’t defined the "blood of the everlasting covenant"

Lets try again...what is the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant?
Jesus was delivered from death by the ''blood of the everlasting covenant" Heb 13:20

Alethos

 

[Episkopos]

The Psalm is Messianic...do you know what that means? (said in sincerity)





I agree with your statement regarding Jesus being raised bodily my point was that no longer does he have blood running through his veins...he lives by the Spirit. His body is now energised by Spirit.

But it was a nice pick up and I thank you for clarifying that point.

However, you haven’t defined the "blood of the everlasting covenant"

Lets try again...what is the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant? Jesus was delivered from death by the ''blood of the everlasting covenant" Heb 13:20

Alethos

We are delivered by His blood. He is the Deliverer not the delivered one.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Let's look more closely at your error.


Imagine you order a pizza! And you ask to have it delivered. So the guy shows up with the pizza at the door!

Now is he delivering the pizza to himself????


Or is he a deliverer of said pizza for others! ?

I agree with your statement regarding Jesus being raised bodily my point was that no longer does he have blood running through his veins...he lives by the Spirit. His body is now energised by Spirit.

Jesus was ALWAYS energised by Spirit. This is what I'm trying to relay to you.

WE are also to walk in this energization!

That is what He died to bring us...HIS life....HIS energy life force. When we surrender our bodies to God HE then indwells us and quickens us through Christ.

Jesus Christ IS that quickening Spirit!

Alethos,
you have concocted your own theory from some misfiring synapses in your brain. This theory SEEMS to make sense to you. But there are thousands of ways to misread the bible,

The gospel is according to power not just word. When you receive power from above THEN you know you are experiencing the truth of it.

The mind can play tricks on you!

Let God show you HIS ways!

 

[Episkopos]

So Alethos has Jesus delivering himself as an example that we might also deliver ourselves? As in...good luck buddies!

Jesus redeemed Himself so that we could learn how to redeem ourselves by copying?

Jesus died for His own sins so that now we can die for our own sins?


So in this scheme things remain as they always were. We are on our own....oh....but we have a Buddha to pattern our lives on????:blink:

This puts the lame back into lamentations!!!!


(Hebrews 13:11,12 )
[sup]11[/sup]For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.




[sup]12[/sup]Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

 

[Robbie]

All aboard.... haha

 

[aspen]

Thanks Aspen for at least providing an explanation of your beliefs.

I guess you have forgotten the last time we talked.

[font="tahoma][quote]Because you believe in the immortal soul, which by the way never appears in the Bible no not once.[/quote][/font][/color][/size][color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[size="3"][font="tahoma]
[/font][/color][/size]
[size="3"][font="tahoma]When did I use the word soul?[/font]

 

[aspen]

We are delivered by His blood. He is the Deliverer not the delivered one.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Let's look more closely at your error.


Imagine you order a pizza! And you ask to have it delivered. So the guy shows up with the pizza at the door!

Now is he delivering the pizza to himself????


Or is he a deliverer of said pizza for others! ?



Jesus was ALWAYS energised by Spirit. This is what I'm trying to relay to you.

WE are also to walk in this energization!

That is what He died to bring us...HIS life....HIS energy life force. When we surrender our bodies to God HE then indwells us and quickens us through Christ.

Jesus Christ IS that quickening Spirit!

Alethos,
you have concocted your own theory from some misfiring synapses in your brain. This theory SEEMS to make sense to you. But there are thousands of ways to misread the bible,

The gospel is according to power not just word. When you receive power from above THEN you know you are experiencing the truth of it.

The mind can play tricks on you!

Let God show you HIS ways!

Great post! I love the pizza delivery example. Expect it to be ignored. If it is not supportive of Shane's private theology, it is cast aside.

 

[Alethos]

We are delivered by His blood. He is the Deliverer not the delivered one.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Let's look more closely at your error.


Imagine you order a pizza! And you ask to have it delivered. So the guy shows up with the pizza at the door!

Now is he delivering the pizza to himself????


Or is he a deliverer of said pizza for others! ?



Jesus was ALWAYS energised by Spirit. This is what I'm trying to relay to you.

WE are also to walk in this energization!

That is what He died to bring us...HIS life....HIS energy life force. When we surrender our bodies to God HE then indwells us and quickens us through Christ.

Jesus Christ IS that quickening Spirit!

Alethos,
you have concocted your own theory from some misfiring synapses in your brain. This theory SEEMS to make sense to you. But there are thousands of ways to misread the bible,

The gospel is according to power not just word. When you receive power from above THEN you know you are experiencing the truth of it.

The mind can play tricks on you!

Let God show you HIS ways!

[sup]20[/sup]Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Heb 13:20

The facts as presented:

1. Gods action here is the bringing Jesus back to life from the dead

2. Jesus is defined as the great shepherd of the sheep (us)

3. The power prescribed by God in raising his son is activated “through the blood of the everlasting covenant”

So verse 20 is all about God raising His son and the mode of operation that God used in raising Jesus “through” the same blood covenant as we will be raised, should we see death.

So how is it, that Christ is came under the beneficial operation of his own death (blood)?

Which is also stated in Heb 9:12 'Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood “he” Jesus entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption

By Jesus “own blood he entered in once ...

Now you would have to be deaf, blind and dumb if cannot read these verses and see their context and meaning. You would need to be purposefully rejecting them in the entirety, because of some falsely held belief.

Either confess the false belief or provide the interpretation.

Here it is again !

Phil 2:8 'He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God hath also highly exalted him'.

Jesus was obedient unto death (Yes)

The very death on the cross (Yes)

As a result of his death he was highly exalted, without that death he could not be exalted. (Yes)

How was he exalted? And by what means did he benefit from his death?

“by his own blood”

“through the blood of the everlasting covenant”

Now do I have to ask you a third time to explain for us how Jesus “by” his own blood” and “through the everlasting covenant” enter the most holy?

My 13 year old Sunday school student can answer this question and yet here we are three attempts and still you cannot answer how Jesus came under the “the blood of the everlasting covenant”

I doubt you even knew these verses existed? I am sure you can see the passages and their meaning but you run off to your many deities and numerous gods.

Answer the question “What is the everlasting covenant” and how did Jesus benefit?

Alethos

 

[justaname]

Hi Justaname,

Its been a little while.

Just in case you don’t know; a dead man cannot restore himself to life, this you must admit, but here in John 2:19 we see Jesus who in obedience to his Fathers commands had already been given a title and name of resurrection, as you would know death could not take hold of him permanently, in this he had great confidence in his God, so in this way, yes he could speak of his resurrection being his own act.

Imagine if we could have that same belief and confidence as Jesus? You of course know and it is plainly taught by all Christians that God, the Father, was the power by which Jesus was raised from the dead: Acts 2:30,32,36; 3:15,26; 4:10; etc.

By the way Justaname did you notice how Jesus was using the tabernacle analogy to speak of his death and resurrection, but they (Pharisees) twisted it to make it into a literal statement, that’s because it suited them to do so. All in order to find charges to lay against him.

Most Christians I hope would see this as a figure speech of the lords, but some “maybe” like you have taken it literally in order to win a debate? Would you prefer to believe that Jesus spoke of his dying as NOT really dying? Than say believe that Jesus actually being fully dead, he relied soley on His Father power to raise him from the dead?

Alethos

Just in case you don’t know; a dead man cannot restore himself to life, this you must admit,


To this response you are calling Jesus a liar. So then he was a sinner to you also.


Now also I never remember in scripture Jesus ever praying to His God but to His Father.


As far as the final question I would say the temple of Jesus, the Son of man, was fully dead. But as we all know the completion of a man is more than just temple. We all have a fleshly death, but Jesus being without sin, unlike you say, was able to raise his Holy temple, for satan had no hold on Him.

 

[aspen]

My 13 year old Sunday school student can answer this question and yet here we are three attempts and still you cannot answer how Jesus came under the “the blood of the everlasting covenant”

Which shows that you are doing a fine job of indoctrinating the adolescents in your Sunday school class.....congratulations. How does comparing adult students of the Bible to your students help spread the gospel?

 

[justaname]

[/size]

I guess you have forgotten the last time we talked.

[font="tahoma][/font][/color][/size][color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[size="3"][font="tahoma]
[/font][/color][/size]
[size="3"][font="tahoma]When did I use the word soul?[/font]

Matthew 23 : 37

 

[aspen]

Matthew 23 : 37

So true.......Truth's theology maybe labeling Jesus a liar AND an Australian!