Did Jesus really mean that Muslims or Hindus would go to hell?

[Ferris Bueller]

No one is blameless, even in the OT, everyone was justified by faith, and not works of the law.

"there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and whose wife Elizabeth was a daughter of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and decrees of the Lord." Luke 1:5-6​

And so it is that there are people who were blameless in regard to the little knowledge of God they possessed through the law of nature and conscience. They were a law unto themselves, and if they were faithful to it, will be judged accordingly.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There are no exceptions, for all have sinned.

Yes, but one can be blameless in that sin.
Blameless doesn't mean you didn't sin. It means that sin is not held against you in light of mitigating circumstances, like, for example, not having any knowledge of the law of Moses or of the Christ.

See, if a person doesn't follow what they consider in their own heart to be right, that disobedience will testify against them, even though they don't have any knowledge of Moses or the Christ. Just as their obedience to what they consider in their own heart to be right will testify on their behalf.

Remember, this is only in regard to people who have no knowledge of Moses or Christ. Which pretty much rules out everyone at this time in history. You have to remember Paul is addressing an argument from 2000 years ago. This is not an escape clause for someone today who wants to somehow get out of being condemned at the judgment. Just the mere fact that they know about Christ and the judgment instantly excludes them from the people Paul is talking about.

 

[Scott Downey]

So much hate in the name of Love...



This pretty much sums up the way all of you think. Didn't anyone read my post about Love being the Way, the Truth and the Life, not Jesus in his human expression?

Did anyone try to understand John 10:16?

Isn't there anyone to acknowledge that the way we love is more important than the way we think? Well if people like you go to Heaven, I hope I'll make it to a different mansion (John 14:2) where I get to spend Eternity with loving people, whatever their religion is.

John 10:16, these other sheep Christ has, well, they belong to Christ. And they are His sheep. And Christ's sheep have Christ as their shepherd. Christ says He is the door of the sheep, they go in and out by Him only, no other shepherd, no other prophet, or religious leader.
Read all of John 10 and you will see if you try to enter the sheepfold by any other way, Christ calls you a thief and a robber.

These 'other sheep. are all the gentiles whom God has foreknown as His people through Christ, who are not yet saved but will be. They will become christians. And Christ says they are of the same sheepfold and same shepherd. People need to understand God's calling and foreknowledge and determination of things to understand this. Like in Ephesians 1 and Romans 9.

John 10
1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If people could go and live with God in heaven without Christ, that makes His death on the cross unnecessary, and so then all of Christianity is not important.

But God says this again in Acts 17 about the judgement

But look what it says right there in Acts 17...

"God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times" Acts 17:30​

Of course, he's talking about those who were ignorant of the things of God revealed through Moses and the Gospel. Mitigating circumstances keep these individuals from being condemned by the specifics of a law and gospel they had zero knowledge of. As Paul explains in Romans 2:14-16, these people will be judged by what they did with the law of nature and conscience they did possess. But with the knowledge of the gospel their accountability now becomes a matter of the law and the Christ. But people who died in their ignorance of the gospel are judged according to their circumstances and what they did in those circumstances. But don't worry, lol, this is talking largely about ancient history before the knowledge of God and the gospel was sent to the four corners of the world. Remember, Paul is entertaining an argument that is now 2000 years old.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, but one can be blameless in that sin.
Blameless doesn't mean you didn't sin. It means that sin is not held against you in light of mitigating circumstances, like, for example, not having any knowledge of the law of Moses or of the Christ.

See, if a person doesn't follow what they consider in their own heart to be right, that disobedience will testify against them, even though they don't have any knowledge of Moses or the Christ. Just as their obedience to what they consider in their own heart to be right will testify on their behalf.

Remember, this is only in regard to people who have no knowledge of Moses or Christ. Which pretty much rules out everyone at this time in history. You have to remember Paul is addressing an argument from 2000 years ago. This is not an escape clause for someone today who wants to somehow get out of being condemned at the judgment. Just the mere fact that they know about Christ and the judgment instantly excludes them from the people Paul is talking about.

You're still holding to an anti-christ pov though regardless of what time period.
If anyone in the OT period was saved, it was still through Christ, look at ancient Israel in 1 Corinthians 10
All the ancient nations, God tells us He did not know or chose them, they worshipped demons. But of course people have been saved by their faith in the true God, but this was in actuality Christ in the OT period.

Old Testament Examples
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us [a]tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

We don't have any relevance to the ancient people before Christ, we are talking about today, you can't go back into the past, we are now in the New Covenant, the old covenant has passed away.
Today, God commands everyone to repent and believe in Christ, there is no salvation in any other name. There is no salvation for muslims, buddhists, nihilists, etc... unless they repent and believe in the Son

Acts 4
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You'r still holding to an anti-christ though regardless of what time period.
If anyone in the OT period was saved, it was still through Christ, look at ancient Israel in 1 Corinthians 10
All the ancient nations, God tells us He did not know or chose them, they worshipped demons. But of course people have been saved by their faith in the true God, but this was in actuality Christ in the OT period.

Old Testament Examples
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us [a]tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

We don't have any relevance to the ancient people before Christ, we are talking about today, you can't go back into the past, we are now in the New Covenant, the old covenant has passed away.
Today, God commands everyone to repent and believe in Christ, there is no salvation in any other name.

Acts 4
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

This is all wonderful, but completely inapplicable to those who never heard a lick of Moses or the gospel. God mitigates judgement in their case because they lacked this knowledge.

 

[JMyrick]

God also said "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" so even if they're loving and everything, not following that commandment may compromise that.

 

[Scott Downey]

This is all wonderful, but completely inapplicable to those who never heard a lick of Moses or the gospel. God mitigates judgement in their case because they lacked this knowledge.

Sorry but your still talking anti-christ there.
God does not mitigate judgement for lack of knowledge.
Jesus plainly tells them they will die in their sins as they do not believe who He says he is, and that would be God come in the flesh.
Antichrists deny that Christ who came in the form of God has come in the flesh.
When Christ speaks, He speaks as God.


Philippians 2:5-7
New King James Version
The Humbled and Exalted Christ
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

So when Christ speaks, it is the same as if God speaks. Just substitute God for Christ in these verses.
God is speaking here, and he is telling these people they do not believe what he says about Himself, they will die in their sins, that means no forgiveness for them, they go to hell fire.
John 8
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

 

[Scott Downey]

God also said "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" so even if they're loving and everything, not following that commandment may compromise that.

Yes, the True God is Jesus Christ, as Apostle John says.
And not everyone has God given this understanding to.
Only those who have this understanding have eternal life and go to heaven to live with God and Christ and all the rest of the family of God named in heaven, such as the holy angels and perfected saints.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus plainly tells them they will die in their sins as they do not believe who He says he is

They have knowledge of Christ, so how does what I shared from Romans 2:14-16 apply to them that it should somehow disprove what I'm saying?

 

[Scott Downey]

They have knowledge of Christ, so how does what I shared from Romans 2:14-16 apply to them that it should somehow disprove what I'm saying?

What your denying is that what Jesus tells the unbelieving Jews also applies to all unbelieving people who have never heard the gospel.
And while they may be fewer such people as many years ago, they are still many who have not heard.
There is no scriptural distinction among unbelievers, there exist only those who believe and those who do not believe, it does not matter what their circumstances are.

Romans 2, like you're pointing at, people without law, also perish without law. God makes no distinction among them, as it says there is no partiality with God.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

v16 has no qualifiers except for belief, no individual excuses are mentioned, the verse is universal to all men.

Mark 16
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

[Scott Downey]

We could get into a whole n'other level here, as far as why people choose to believe in Christ.
As scripturally God chooses whom He will save, and is to those whom God foreknew as His people, they are the ones who hear the gospel and believe in Christ and no one else does.

Such as this
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Those who God calls are those who end up loving God and they are glorified at the end of the age.
God being all wise, all knowing, all powerful of course, declares the end from the beginning, as He is God.
We just walk this out in time, but God already determined this from the beginning, before time began, just like this here

Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15
New King James Version
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.


This is in contrast to the lost whom God did not call, they remain of the flesh and the devil and follow Satan, like Ephesians 2 says.
These are not born of the Spirit. They are sealed into their delusions. The wicked will never understand. It is why you must be born again to see the kingdom of God. And being born again is what the Father God does, that is not under your authority or will.
2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Before time began God called those He foreknew as in knowing them personally,
Paul is a perfect example of this being called by grace, God preserved Paul through his childbirth alive and brought him to salvation. He was a wicked unbelieving jew who persecuted Christians, put them in prison and to death.
But God had purpose for Paul, and what God does cannot be thwarted. All those God saves, he has a purpose and plan for that cannot be prevented.

Galatians 1
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

The purpose of God explained
Ephesians 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is no scriptural distinction among unbelievers, there exist only those who believe and those who do not believe, it does not matter what their circumstances are.

How do you choose to believe, or choose not to believe, something you've never heard?
God has made provision to judge these people fairly.
He does that per Romans 2:14-16.
He uses their own concept of right and wrong to judge them.

 

[Scott Downey]

How do you choose to believe, or choose not to believe, something you've never heard?
God has made provision to judge these people fairly.
He does that per Romans 2:14-16.
He uses their own concept of right and wrong to judge them.

Whether people hear or not has no bearing on sin, as they sin. God does not forgive sin outside of Christ. Again that kind of thinking is anti-Christ, as for possibly being saved does not need Christ at all. Christ is definitely a stumbling block for many people. But he is the chief cornerstone.

Acts 4:10-12
New King James Version
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Even if you do not believe Christ is the only way to get to heaven, this is a characteristic of being a Christian.
If you believe good people of other faiths can go to heaven, then if you evangelize them and they reject Christ, that rejection then seals their fate of hell. That kind of thinking is also anti-gospel and contrary to scripture.

So from you POV, better not spread the gospel as good people might go to hell fire as otherwise they might not, that is really bad theology.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So from you POV, better not spread the gospel as good people might go to hell fire as otherwise they might not, that is really bad theology.

I don't believe that.
Those who respond favorably to the condition of no knowledge of Christ or Moses will respond favorably to the knowledge of the gospel. It follows in the same vein of revelation that Jesus talked about when he said if they listen to Moses they'll listen to him, and vice versa.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Again that kind of thinking is anti-Christ, as for possibly being saved does not need Christ at all.

It isn't a matter of not needing Christ. Christ is present in veiled form in the law of nature and personal conscience. Just as the rock that accompanied the Israelites in the desert was Christ in veiled form.

 

[Scott Downey]

It isn't a matter of not needing Christ. Christ is present in veiled form in the law of nature and personal conscience. Just as the rock that accompanied the Israelites in the desert was Christ in veiled form.

Your building this teaching on your understanding of Romans 2, outside of the context of Romans 1 and 2.
Romans 2 as I said, God judges them according to the gospel of Christ. Not according to Christ in veiled form in nature.
Note v16, the words, Jesus Christ and Gospel. And it says they excuse themselves, it does not say God excuses them, since when do people get to heaven on their own works and conscience thoughts that does not happen.
Men left to themselves cannot please God and be saved, they must be born again first.
Romans 8:6-9
New King James Version
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

If you are not born again, then you do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in you and you are carnally minded and not His.

Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God judges them according to the gospel of Christ. Not according to Christ in veiled form in nature.

No, no, they are judged by Jesus Christ on the day of judgment. Just as the gospel says will happen.
Christ in veiled form refers to the veiled revelation of God to them while alive.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And it says they excuse themselves, it does not say God excuses them

Their own thoughts about what is right and wrong testify for or against them. Just as the written law and the gospel testify for or against us who have knowledge of the law and the gospel. Since they had no knowledge of the law of God or the gospel by which to convict or acquit them, their own thoughts about what is right and wrong as revealed to them through nature and conscience become the 'law' by which they are convicted or acquitted on the day of judgment. The day the gospel says Jesus will judge all men.

Me and you, we will get judged according to what we did with the knowledge we received about the law and the gospel. Men in past times who received no revelation of the law and the gospel will be judged by the standard of righteousness they did have - the standard of right and wrong as revealed through nature itself and their own conscience.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

since when do people get to heaven on their own works and conscience thoughts

Just as there were blameless, righteous people at peace with God under the law of Moses before the revelation of the gospel of Jesus (Luke 1:6), there are righteous people at peace with God who were under the law of nature and conscience while in this life.

Blameless doesn't mean they never sinned. It means they were aware of their sin through whatever avenue of revelation that was available to them and they found forgiveness and peace with God and turned away from that unrighteousness. Just because they didn't have the specific knowledge of the blood and body of Christ through which God can forgive people doesn't mean they could not be forgiven if they turned to God in sorrow and repentance (i.e. King David).