amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
THATS RIGHT , STAND ON IT TILL THE LAST BREATH .
Did Jesus really mean that Muslims or Hindus would go to hell?
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Thus if one is truly born again they then DO love GOD . But none are born again if they DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST .
take that to the grave . We believe , BELIEVE in JESUS CHRIST . That is how one will be saved . And all the good works
without BELEIVING IN JESUS , AINT GONNA MATTER . EVEN CORNELIOUS .
Lets stop there so i remind us all. EVEN CORNELIOUS .
Now let us examine this cornelious . He beleived in the one true GOD , the jewish GOD .
HE did many alms and prayers . THe angel told him SO .
but could all his good works save him . NOPE . THe angel told HIM , YE MUST send for peter and HE IS GONNA TELL YA
what you must DO . Exactly . THE POPE is a CHarlaton . SO are many others
tellling folks that muslims and buddits and atheists are saved if they do good . YEH RIGHT , EVEN CORNELIOUS who DID MUCH GOOD
HAD TO BELIEVE IN JESUS TO BE SAVED . I SHUN the all inclusive gospel to HELL . I WLL SHUN IT and may i shun it till the day i die .
I will stand on the only HOPE MANKIND HAS . AND THAT IS THIS AND THIS ALONE . YE MUST BELEIVE IN JESUS TO BE SAVED .
PEROID .
I suppose most of us can think of modern day icons who do much good in the world and are considered to be wonderful people, but unless they accept Jesus and are born again and washed in the blood of the lamb then the have no hope of eternal life no matter how wonderful they are.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
yes indeed dear sister . Ponder on oprah wimphrey , the lady gives more money to the poor in one hour
than i have in my whole life . YET she says there are many ways to GOD , and me being poor in this world , SAYS
NOPE there is but ONE WAY AND HE IS JESUS . On the day of judgement one thing will have mattered
did we love Christ , did we point to HE ALONE . DID WE BELIEVE IN HIM . Lest ye become as children you shall
in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven . AND as a little child we would simply BELIEVE OUR LORD .
If one is not truly born again, one is not of the Kingdom of God.
If you are not worthy of the Kingdom of God you are not worthy to go to Heaven in fact. that is because such a one does not truly know Jesus Christ and because they do not truly know him, that means that they are of this world ?
Now Jesus said that he was not of this world in fact, not to mention why did he says such ! well the reason is that That this world is full of deception and the people are under delusions. Religion never cut it ! Only Jesus Christ cut it and you must abide in him. now remember who he says to them how say Lord lord ? they say such but they do not truly know him. because they are all wrapped up in religion. that is all of mans works.
Their is a huge difference, their is a huge gulf between the truly Saved born again and the religious dupes regardless of what camp one wants to talk about. Even Communism is religious, in fact the greatest religion one may say, because all believe the same thing, or at least they have to make such a claim or they are killed just as it was with the Jews of old, they killed such people who were to be seen stepping outside the line. remember they worked to set Jesus up time and time again to kill him and the same with all of the rest.
So the Jews being a carnal religious people could not see the Light, they needed our Saviour that Holy Moses talked about would come. and them Jews who truly followed in Moses came to understand, now not all of the Jews look up to Moses. for they had Idols.
If you are not worthy of the Kingdom of God you are not worthy to go to Heaven in fact. that is because such a one does not truly know Jesus Christ and because they do not truly know him, that means that they are of this world ?
Now Jesus said that he was not of this world in fact, not to mention why did he says such ! well the reason is that That this world is full of deception and the people are under delusions. Religion never cut it ! Only Jesus Christ cut it and you must abide in him. now remember who he says to them how say Lord lord ? they say such but they do not truly know him. because they are all wrapped up in religion. that is all of mans works.
Their is a huge difference, their is a huge gulf between the truly Saved born again and the religious dupes regardless of what camp one wants to talk about. Even Communism is religious, in fact the greatest religion one may say, because all believe the same thing, or at least they have to make such a claim or they are killed just as it was with the Jews of old, they killed such people who were to be seen stepping outside the line. remember they worked to set Jesus up time and time again to kill him and the same with all of the rest.
So the Jews being a carnal religious people could not see the Light, they needed our Saviour that Holy Moses talked about would come. and them Jews who truly followed in Moses came to understand, now not all of the Jews look up to Moses. for they had Idols.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Strange, that I never thought of the Outer Darkness that way. But I stand by my original sleep-deprived thought: In the end, God illumines everything, and there is no darkness.
The Light shines in the Darkness, and the Darkness did not overcome it.
- John1:5
Yes. And as I said, I’m hoping the outer darkness lasts only to the end of the thousand years. That would make it akin to some sort of…purgatory, where you won’t come out until you’ve paid the last farthing…beaten with many stripes as opposed to few…
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Interesting that you would connect the Outer Darkness to Purgatory. Some semi-universalists and at least one rabbi I read liken Hades/Gehenna to Purgatory, where if torment doesn't drive you to repentance, nothing will. After their sins have been paid for, those who finally repent will move on to the World to Come; those who do not will finally have to be put down.
I also picked up your connection of the exile to the Outer Darkness to the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, and I saw at least one other notable eschatological connection you made which I'll have to go back and find. The theological crowd I run with doesn't focus much on eschatology; we talk about the Second Coming on Christ the King Sunday (the last Sunday in the Liturgical calendar), then we move on to Advent and talk about the First Coming. May I ask you to give some information on the theological/eschatological/ecclesiological background from which you come? Feel free to respectfully decline if you would prefer.
There is no mention of Purgatory in the scriptures and you need to be driven to repentance in this life not in a mythical place when you are dead. All that stuff is false teaching and not part of the true Gospel. The Gospel is the Good News that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour now in this life.
I don’t come from any background and no denomination. I do have a desire to fit it all together and…not try to fit it into any certain framework men have built but to just understand it.
I am not good with eschatology but it seems it might be one of your focuses so maybe God will help us in it.
There sort of is mention of it…it’s in those verses you can’t quite seem to know what to do with. Like when Jesus talks about the man whose debt was forgiven who did not extend that same mercy to another man and He said, I tell you, you will not escape until you have paid the last farthing. And in…if you do not forgive, I will not forgive you.
I used the word purgatory because it is the only word I could think to use for it. Maybe there would be some better word to use concerning those verses…
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. But eschatology really isn’t one of my focuses at all. I stumbled into one of Charity’s eschatological threads, looked around, and wondered what the heck I was doing in that neighborhood. I’m more interested in understanding where you’re coming from.
Lol. Doesn’t eschatology mean delving into end times verses? I got the impression you were eager in it. Most people pick a prebuilt framework to settle on, but they all have problems. I think the fog clears some if you divide correctly which vss concern before a gathering together, which concern after a gathering together, which are before thousand years, which after thousand years.
I also think the same foggy problems begin to clear up by rightly dividing which verses concern righteousness and which concern holiness.
Behaving like a saint sounds like they are trying to do good works, but it is not good works that saves anyone.
By works of God's law (doing the right things) shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
The only people who go to heaven are the elect whom HE chose. Such people that He chose, believe in Christ.
Infants and young children, also go to heaven up to a certain point into their young life after which they demonstrate their evil nature and consciously, willfully sin being disobedient to God's laws.
Paul specifically said the children of believers are Holy to the Lord, else they would be unclean creatures.
And Jesus blessed the young children, and said the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as them.
Here is Romans 4 on this matter. Trying to be good is irrelevant to going to heaven or not.
And if you reject the scriptures, where does that leave you except as allied with Satan, and against Christ.
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Their ignorance will not save them one bit, as all have sinned and are guilty before God. This is never a question of fairness, as they are all judged worthy of death.
Romans 2, says of gentile unbelievers this, they will be judged by the gospel, and we know what Christ said, he that believes shall be saved, and he that believes not damned.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Adam tried excusing his actions to God, by blaming Eve for what he did, but it did not work did it. Their thoughts may excuse them, but not to God, for there is no partiality, the soul that sins shall die. It is only through Christ that there is the forgiveness of sin.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
But Paul is saying they are not ignorant...
"they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts" Romans 2:15
[QUOTE="Ferris Bueller, post: 1190328, member: 9156"]But Paul is saying they are not ignorant...[/QUOTE]
Yes, but Scripture stipulates that God is no respecter of persons, that is anyone can have the chance to be saved.
Yes, but Scripture stipulates that God is no respecter of persons, that is anyone can have the chance to be saved.
Yes, but I am talking about those who have never heard the gospel. They are ignorant of that.
Example here
Ephesians 4:17-21
New King James Version
The New Man
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as [a]the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Having the work of the law written on their hearts, is not a positive for salvation, it tells then they are guilty, example here
Galatians 3:10
The Law Brings a Curse
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Unless one is blameless under that law, and has no knowledge of justification through Jesus.
No one is blameless, even in the OT, everyone was justified by faith, and not works of the law.
What you're actually saying is anti-Christ, in that people can be going to the Father without the ministry of Christ who is our great high priest to God. There are no exceptions, for all have sinned. Not believing in Christ is a sin and it will kill you, as Christ says those who do not believe in Him, die in their sins. And are condemned with the wrath of God abiding on them
NT, John 3
35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
OT, Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith.
If people could go and live with God in heaven without Christ, that makes His death on the cross unnecessary, and so then all of Christianity is not important.
But God says this again in Acts 17 about the judgement, he commands all men everywhere to repent, as He will judge them by Christ alone, and Christ says no one comes to the Father but by Him, Christ is the door of the sheep to enter into God's kingdom.
Look at each verse here and see for yourself.
John 10
New King James Version
Jesus the True Shepherd
1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
Acts 17
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
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