How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?
- Thread starter Joshua David
- Start date
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Pomp.
Pomp.
My ancestors in France were Catholic, but I am not. It hasn't done orthodox Jews any good to have the Hebrew Bible because they cannot get past OT Scripture about Christ coming as Immanuel, God with us.
The King James bible was under great persuasion and threats of the catholic church. Then because of it's popularity and saleability every translation followed suite with all of it's errors intact. All except "The Youngs Literal translation" which was not popular and criticized for not having all of the gross errors that those who live in error love.
Comparing the Young's Literal Translation, a one-man-made translation, to the 1611 King James Bible is like trying to compare a coloring book to a book on calculus. What a joke.
Obviously you don't know the history of the 1611 King James Bible translation.
Yes I do know the true history. the entire group of people chosen to translate the King James bible worked for many years under threats from all the religious people of their times and were never paid for their labors even though they were supposed to be paid by the king. You don't like the youngs literal translation because of the reasons that I mentioned. Apparently you love your confusion and doctrines of confusion enough to rise up in spirit against the Lord over it.
I assure you, I'm not rising up in spirit against The Lord on this matter. King James was ordained by God to give His people an English translation they could read for themselves and understand. And God fulfilled it through King James of England, Defender Of The Faith; and the close scholarship of the various religious groups that made the translation grew closer daily in their agreements the further the translation came along. Afterall, it was... the religious people of the day that were the actual educators and translators, not groups of foreigners. There's a pretty good historical DVD that came out last year on the KJV translation process; might want to check it out.
Concerning Young's Literal translation...
http://www.bible-res....com/young.html
An excerpt from that link which I agree with...
"Young's translation is designed to assist students in the close study of the Biblical text by reproducing in English the Hebrew and Greek idioms, in an exceedingly literal translation. In the New Testament his translation is based on the text of Estienne 1550. The character of the version may be judged from the sample passage below. It will be noticed that the English is highly unnatural. In the pursuit of minute accuracy, Young tries to represent the Greek tenses with certain English tenses consistently, he tries to adhere to the word-order of the original, and he consistently translates a Greek word with the same English word in all of its occurrences. But in doing these things, he often fails to give the sense of the Greek correctly in English. It is doubtful whether the translation is really of much help to those who do not know Greek, because here the English is being forced to observe rules of the Greek language. The reader must become familiar with Greek syntax and vocabulary in order to make sense of the English! Regarding Young's translation of the Old Testament, F.F. Bruce writes that "it is largely vitiated by an eccentric theory about the tenses of the Hebrew verb." (The English Bible: A History of Translations, p. 132.) The method of the translation and its rationale—including his theory of the Hebrew tenses—are fully explained in the Prefaces."
In that sense, why must we try to re-learn English all over again with such an elemental level literal translation? If one wants to transliterate Hebrew-Greek to English instead, like it does, they'd be better off learning Biblical Hebrew and Greek! So in that sense, for the English speaking peoples of 1600's, it would be going backwards in communicating the sense of God's Word to them.
Thanks for posting that link veteran. It is confirmation that Young's translation is much more brought forth by God than King James who had to be talked into it or rather tricked into it by John reynolds.
Here it is in history
Soon after King James assumed the throne of England in 1603, he was approached by a group of Puritans led by John Reynolds, president of Corpus Christi College, Oxford, and presented with the Millennium Petition. This called for spiritual reform in the Church of England along Presbyterian lines, and it got its name from the fact that it was signed by an estimated 1,000 ministers.
A conference was held at Hampton Court Palace in 1604 to discuss the petition. Reynolds suggested that a new translation of the English Bible be produced. It is thought that this historic meeting was held in the Cartoon Gallary, which is so called because of the impressive paintings that hang on the walls depicting biblical scenes. The Gallary was first built to display Raphael’s Acts of the Apostles. Queen Victoria gave the originals to the Victoria and Albert Museum, and the paintings in the Cartoon Gallery today are copies that were made by Henry Cooke in 1697.
The king approved the proposition for the new Bible, and within six months a list of 54 scholars was drawn up for the work. Deaths and withdrawals reduced the list, and it appears that roughly 50 men were actually involved in the translation.
Work began in 1607.
The translators of the King James Bible were not paid for their work. Only the 12 who did the final revision received anything, and their wage was a small weekly stipend for basic expenses as they met in London for the nine months required to complete that portion of the work.
King James: " I had nothing to do with the translation beyond authorizing the work to proceed and agreeing on the translation standards".
He did not choose the translators. He did not do any of the translation. He did not fund the work.
There is no evidence that he even issued an official authorization when the translation was completed.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Joshua David. (Good name, by the way! I named my son the same!)
I said I don't believe in the "seven years of tribulation" because the "seven years" of Dani'el's 70th Seven is not the same thing as the "tribulation." The "tribulation" (Greek: "thlipsis" meaning "pressure") has been going on since the first century A.D. and will continue to go on until the Second Coming of the Messiah. Furthermore, it is not just a "pressure" on everyone or on the unbelievers; it is a "pressure" put upon the Jews - both believers and blind - to DRIVE them back to God through their Messiah.
This term comes from Matthew 24, Mark 13, and to some extent from Luke 21 (the "Olivet Discourse").
This pressure is not a constant pressure; that is what Yeshua` meant by saying that He would "shorten the days." He wasn't shortening the whole time period of the pressure; He was shortening the actual days of pressure within the whole time period, giving them lulls in between. These reprieves give the Jews time and limited peace to rebuild and survive until the time of the blindness is past.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
I said I don't believe in the "seven years of tribulation" because the "seven years" of Dani'el's 70th Seven is not the same thing as the "tribulation." The "tribulation" (Greek: "thlipsis" meaning "pressure") has been going on since the first century A.D. and will continue to go on until the Second Coming of the Messiah. Furthermore, it is not just a "pressure" on everyone or on the unbelievers; it is a "pressure" put upon the Jews - both believers and blind - to DRIVE them back to God through their Messiah.
This term comes from Matthew 24, Mark 13, and to some extent from Luke 21 (the "Olivet Discourse").
This pressure is not a constant pressure; that is what Yeshua` meant by saying that He would "shorten the days." He wasn't shortening the whole time period of the pressure; He was shortening the actual days of pressure within the whole time period, giving them lulls in between. These reprieves give the Jews time and limited peace to rebuild and survive until the time of the blindness is past.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Hi Retrobyter,
You provide a CORRECT assessment of what the Daniel seventieth week ISN'T. Do you know what it IS?
BibleScribe
That is so obviously not so.
Those Matt.24 and Mark 13 signs of the end of the world and of Christ's second coming did not just involve Jerusalem and what the Romans did in 69 A.D. To know that, all one need do is simply read the Scripture as written.
What you appear to be pushing instead, is a-millennialism, a belief that Christ's literal Kingdom officially manifested on earth with His crucifixion, and that ever since His Church has been in a state of evolution to the future point where He can return.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, BibleScribe.
Sure, it's the week of testing when the Messiah to be King is to assume the role as King over Y'hudah, just as David did in Hevron (2 Sam. 5:1-5). He began to "confirm the [Davidic] covenant with many for one Seven," but "in the middle of the Seven" He caused "the sacrifice and the gift to cease" by sacrificing His body as Keves haPesach Elohiym (the Paschal Lamb of God, Hebrews 10:1-22) when "the Messiah was cut off," and "for the overspreading of abominations," He made the city Yerushalayim (Jerusalem, and its inhabitants) "desolate, even until the consummation" (Matt. 23:37-39).
The "tribulation" or "thlipsis" or "pressure," on the other hand, is that time period from the first century through the Second Coming when "that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (Luke 21:20-28; Matt. 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-27).
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Hi Retrobyter,
You provide a CORRECT assessment of what the Daniel seventieth week ISN'T. Do you know what it IS?
BibleScribe
Sure, it's the week of testing when the Messiah to be King is to assume the role as King over Y'hudah, just as David did in Hevron (2 Sam. 5:1-5). He began to "confirm the [Davidic] covenant with many for one Seven," but "in the middle of the Seven" He caused "the sacrifice and the gift to cease" by sacrificing His body as Keves haPesach Elohiym (the Paschal Lamb of God, Hebrews 10:1-22) when "the Messiah was cut off," and "for the overspreading of abominations," He made the city Yerushalayim (Jerusalem, and its inhabitants) "desolate, even until the consummation" (Matt. 23:37-39).
The "tribulation" or "thlipsis" or "pressure," on the other hand, is that time period from the first century through the Second Coming when "that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (Luke 21:20-28; Matt. 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-27).
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Actually, I am a strong proponent of premillennialism! I am not an amillennialist nor am I a preterist, although I might classify myself as a “partial preterist” in that I believe that SOME of the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24, 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21) were fulfilled between 66 and 70 A.D. while SOME of it will not be fulfilled until Yeshua` haMashiach returns in His Second Coming or Second Advent.
If anything, I believe that the Kingdom is yet to come and that the “entity” called the “Church” is NOT the Kingdom at all! We can be potential subjects for His Kingdom when it arrives, but we are NOT currently within that Kingdom.
I believe that it is quite obvious that the Messiah did not come back, “spiritually” or otherwise, in the first century.
However, I also believe that there are enough contextual clues to support that much of the Discourse WAS fulfilled in the past.
For instance, the “Road of the Rooftops” makes no sense today, but it was perfectly appropriate in the first century. The person upon the rooftop was instructed not to come down but to escape a different way. In today’s more modern cities, even in Jerusalem, that no longer makes sense; the buildings are too high, they are at varied heights, and they are too wide apart to use them for an escape route, but in Yeshua`s day, a person COULD run from roof to roof to the wall and escape from the Old City without ever coming down to ground level!
The instruction to pray that their escape not be in the “winter” or rather the rainy season or on Shabbat (the Sabbath day) makes much better sense within the borders of Isra’el than it does elsewhere in the world. Who but Jews would CARE that their escape would happen on Shabbat?! The slippery silt of an otherwise dusty city in the rainy season would be treacherous for someone trying to escape; however, this is assuming an escape on foot! With today’s modern vehicles, it seems unlikely that we are talking about escape from any other city in the world but Jerusalem.
Add to these facts that we have the direct statements in Luke’s account, “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies” and “let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains,” added to the DIRECT ADDRESSING of His students (disciples) in several locations within the chapters, and one MUST come to the conclusion (IMO) that at least PART of that discourse was directed to His students (and not just Peter, James, John and Andrew or the Twelve, either, but ALL of His students who were with Him on Har haZeitiym, the Mount of Olives).
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
Actually, I am a strong proponent of premillennialism! I am not an amillennialist nor am I a preterist, although I might classify myself as a “partial preterist” in that I believe that SOME of the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24, 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21) were fulfilled between 66 and 70 A.D. while SOME of it will not be fulfilled until Yeshua` haMashiach returns in His Second Coming or Second Advent.
If anything, I believe that the Kingdom is yet to come and that the “entity” called the “Church” is NOT the Kingdom at all! We can be potential subjects for His Kingdom when it arrives, but we are NOT currently within that Kingdom.
I believe that it is quite obvious that the Messiah did not come back, “spiritually” or otherwise, in the first century.
However, I also believe that there are enough contextual clues to support that much of the Discourse WAS fulfilled in the past.
For instance, the “Road of the Rooftops” makes no sense today, but it was perfectly appropriate in the first century. The person upon the rooftop was instructed not to come down but to escape a different way. In today’s more modern cities, even in Jerusalem, that no longer makes sense; the buildings are too high, they are at varied heights, and they are too wide apart to use them for an escape route, but in Yeshua`s day, a person COULD run from roof to roof to the wall and escape from the Old City without ever coming down to ground level!
The instruction to pray that their escape not be in the “winter” or rather the rainy season or on Shabbat (the Sabbath day) makes much better sense within the borders of Isra’el than it does elsewhere in the world. Who but Jews would CARE that their escape would happen on Shabbat?! The slippery silt of an otherwise dusty city in the rainy season would be treacherous for someone trying to escape; however, this is assuming an escape on foot! With today’s modern vehicles, it seems unlikely that we are talking about escape from any other city in the world but Jerusalem.
Add to these facts that we have the direct statements in Luke’s account, “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies” and “let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains,” added to the DIRECT ADDRESSING of His students (disciples) in several locations within the chapters, and one MUST come to the conclusion (IMO) that at least PART of that discourse was directed to His students (and not just Peter, James, John and Andrew or the Twelve, either, but ALL of His students who were with Him on Har haZeitiym, the Mount of Olives).
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
Hi Roy,
I asked because there is a great delusion regarding this Chapter which is "shut up and sealed until the time of the end", which I approximate to 1948. And where you have provided the errant "Classical" interpretation, the TRUTH is different.
As provided in the Topic "How Close Is The Seven Year Tribulation", pg. 5, Post #139,
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/14089-how-close-is-the-seven-year-tribulation/page__st__120
1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".
2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Soloman biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.
3. Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather and edict directly from GOD.
4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.
5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.
6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.
7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.
8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.
9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.
10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.
If you were to simply consider the "seven and sixty-two", you could take the obvious concept as proposed by Newton and perceive that a ~hammer~ does NOT cost $3 plus $18 (plus tax) , -- it costs $21. He observed that NO society sums numbers in such fashion and that contortion does "violence" to Scripture. He further amplifies that if GOD intended to say ~sixty-nine~ HE would have simply said "sixty-nine".
So where you now have a "seven", so too you also have an ~anointed one~; and where you have the "sixty-two", so too you have a SECOND ~anointed one~.
Thus, using your doctrine, one must conclude that either Jesus made two appearance, or had an older brother, or something else. -- OR you could accept that this chapter has NOTHING to do with a messianic fulfillment, -- as both Scripture and History substantiate.
BibleScribe
The only way I recognize that view is with how some of the signs being multiple fulfillment prophecy like 'blueprints', which are always lacking in complete fulfillment of every parameter given in the sign until the final time it was ultimately meant for. Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. almost fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel to a tee. Yet he did not fulfill everything given in the prophecy. That prophecy cannot apply to the Romans destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 69 A.D., simply because the prophecy requires Jerusalem and a temple to be established when it occurs.
You're treating that "housetop" symbol not as a symbol like how our Lord Jesus gave it, but as a literal warning that if was literally caught on their roof. Christ gave some metaphors from the OT along with those 7 signs in Matt.24 and Mark 13. The housetop idea was one of them. The roof top served as a place of lookout in OT times (2 Samuel 18:12). Our Lord Jesus also used the housetop as a metaphor for His servants preaching The Gospel (Matt.10:27). It is often taught by pre-trib rapturists in connection with their belief that the first taken in the field is to Christ. Per the end of Luke 17 we can know that's not what it's about, and the first one taken is not to Christ Jesus.
The housetop analogy is connected with the idea of a 'watchman'. Our Lord Jesus linked it to His servants remaining faithful doing His work all the way to the time of His coming, their being found so doing (Message towards end of Matt.24). The field He used as symbol for the world (per Matt.13:38), so the idea of the housetop is as a watchman looking at the signs of the end He gave there, and staying in the 'field' (world) being found doing His work when He appears; i.e., not being the first one 'taken'.
In that watch sense... it very much fits the time of great tribulation at the very end of this present world, for it's about watching for His coming as He commanded us to do.
It did apply to 69 A.D. Jerusalem, and it will apply once again in the very end when the abomination of desolation is setup in Jerusalem. Under the Roman army invasion, many Christians in Jerusalem did literally flee in that time. But Luke 21 is obvious that He gave that especially about the end of days for His servants in Jerusalem, and not just 69 A.D.
One of the things I've found many of my brethren have not been taught to do, is to pull all the chaste spiritual virgins, harlot, wedding, and bride Messages together in understanding. The 'blessed are the barren' metaphor Jesus gave in Luke 23 is another of that type that goes with it, and it's a part of the 'travaileth with child' metaphor from the Old Testament. Paul gave that travail with child metaphor also in 1 Thess.5 about those in darkness, as that's how it was applied in the OT. He referenced it again in 2 Cor.11 about us being espoused to one Husband (Christ) as a 'chaste virgin'.
The idea of 'winter' is in connection with the "untimely figs" metaphor mentioned in Rev.6, and with all those above metaphors. In fig horticulture, an untimely fig is a winter fig that grows in the winter, but is too early, and falls off in the spring. What did our Lord Jesus tell us there in Matt.24 about the time of the fig tree, when we see its leaves sprouting, we know that 'summer' is just around the corner. Our Lord Jesus used metaphorical 'summer' to represent the season... of His coming and our gathering to Him. So... if you're harvested in metaphorical 'winter' instead, like an untimely winter fig that grows in winter but falls off in the spring, what would that mean if you did that against Him?
If you understand that, and if you fell to that, what would you be found with at His appearance (relating to false worship to another)? This is why He told those women in Jerusalem crying for Him as He carried His cross to be crucified, to not weep for Him, but weep for theirselves and their children, for the days would come when they shall say, "blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck." (Luke 23:27-31). Our Lord was pulling from the barren metaphor given in Isaiah 54. It's all in the spiritual sense. It's all about not remaining faithful to Him waiting and watching for His coming.
This is why the harlot of Rev.18 says she is 'no widow', and sits as a queen and will see no sorrow. It's a spiritual metaphor for her having already gotten spiritually married to a false husband to become a spiritual harlot, instead of waiting for her True Husband (Christ Jesus). So the 'woe unto them that are with child..." is actually about those spiritual metaphors for false worship He gave through His prophets and Apostles, and at His first coming.
Yet, we know for the very end of this world at Christ's coming, the Ezekiel 38-39 army out of the northern quarters is to come upon Israel on the last day, which is about Armageddon and "the day of The Lord" events. We also know those prophecies were not fulfilled in 69 A.D. by the Romans.
I hope our Lord blesses your understanding in those metaphors He gave I mention. He gave those to make things easier for us to understand, not more difficult.
2 Samuel 18:24 was the OT reference to the roof top for the watchman idea. I missed the verse and put verse 12 instead.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, BibleScribe.
First, for whatever reason, your link wasn't working, but I found Post 139. Then, I see that you just repeated it for me. I AM capable of following links.
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense at all.
However, if you truly want to understand the text, GET OUT OF THE ENGLISH! The English is - at best - confusing. The Hebrew of this passage is much clearer. Also, spend some time getting to understand a Jewish perspective on the passage. If Newton stated such confusion, then I feel sorry for his plight, but these Scriptures were not intended to be mystifying.
Allow me to give you a means for translation:
Dani'el 9:24-27
24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha l’kalei’ hapesha` uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt uwlkhapeer `aavon uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym
v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’ v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:
25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-Maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym:
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible
24 Shaavu`iym = 24 Sevens
shiv`iym = seventy
nechtakh = are-decided
`al- = upon
`amkhaa = your-(singular)-people
v’`al- = and-upon
`iyr = city
qaadshekha = your-(singular)-holy
l’kalei’ = to-finish
hapesha` = the-transgression
uwlhaateem = and-to-make-an-end
chaTaa’owt = [of]-sins
uwlkhapeer = and-to-make-reconciliation-for
`aavon = iniquity
uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-usher-in
tsedeq = righteousness
`olaamiym = of-ages
v’lachtom = and-to-seal-up
chaazown = vision
v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
qodesh = holy
qaadaashiym: = of-holies:
25 V’teeda` = 25 And-know
v’taskeel = and-understand
min-= from
motsaa’ = going-forth
daavaar = [of]-word
l’haashiyv = to-restore
v’livnowt = and-to-build
Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
`ad-= unto
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
naagiyd = Prince
shaavu`iym = sevens
shiv`aah = seven
v’shaavu`iym = and-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
taashuwv = again
v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
rchowv = avenue
v’chaaruwts = and-trench
uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
haa`itiym: = the-times:
26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
hashaavu`iym = the-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
low = not
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-destroy
`am = people
naagiyd = [of]-prince
habaa’ = the-comer
v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
basheTef = in-a-flood
v’`ad = and-until
qeets = end
milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = desolations:
27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-for
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate:
24 Sevens seventy are-decided upon your-(singular)-people and-upon city your-(singular)-holy…
to-finish the-transgression
and-to-make-an-end [of]-sins
and-to-make-reconciliation-for iniquity
and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages
and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy
and-to-anoint holy of-holies:
25 And-know and-understand from going-forth [of]-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince sevens seven and-sevens sixty and-two again and-shall-be-built avenue and-trench and-in-distress the-times:
26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-for-himself not and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:
24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint Holy of Holies:
25 So, know and understand from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens and sixty-two sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:
24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the Holy of Holies:
25 So, know and understand: from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens (when an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress) and sixty-two sevens again:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and a people [of] a prince the comer shall destroy the city and the Holy [place] and the end of it in a flood and until end [of] war are decided desolations:
27 And he (Messiah) shall strengthen a covenant to many [for] one seven and in [the] middle [of] the seven he shall cause to end sacrifice and meal offering and for a spreading out like a wing [of] abominations he shall make [them] desolate and until [the] completion, that decided shall be poured upon [the] desolate:
Verse 27 has fulfillment in two passages of Scripture within the B'rit Chadashah (the NT): Hebrews 10:1-22 and Matthew 23:37-39:
Heb. 10:1-22
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV
Matt. 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
Ps. 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
KJV
The Hebrew of the phrase in Psalm 118:26 is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH." It means "Welcome, the Comer in Name of YHVH" or "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHVH."
Yeshua` the Messiah not only put a stop to sacrifice and meal offering as the FINAL SACRIFICE, but HE is the One who put the gap between His first and second comings! HE'S the One who left the house of Isra'el DESOLATE until the completion! Because they spread out their abominations of rejecting Him as the Messiah of God, He left them DESOLATE - EMPTY! It won't be restored until the JEWS can welcome Him back as the One who comes in the authority of YHVH! Furthermore, according to Psalm 118:26b, they must welcome Him "out of the house of the Lord" or "from the Temple" in order to fulfill that prophecy.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
First, for whatever reason, your link wasn't working, but I found Post 139. Then, I see that you just repeated it for me. I AM capable of following links.
specifies "years".
2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Soloman biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.
3. Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather and edict directly from GOD.
4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.
5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.
6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.
7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.
8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.
9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.
10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.
If you were to simply consider the "seven and sixty-two", you could take the obvious concept as proposed by Newton and perceive that a ~hammer~ does NOT cost $3 plus $18 (plus tax) , -- it costs $21. He observed that NO society sums numbers in such fashion and that contortion does "violence" to Scripture. He further amplifies that if GOD intended to say ~sixty-nine~ HE would have simply said "sixty-nine".
So where you now have a "seven", so too you also have an ~anointed one~; and where you have the "sixty-two", so too you have a SECOND ~anointed one~.
Thus, using your doctrine, one must conclude that either Jesus made two appearance, or had an older brother, or something else. -- OR you could accept that this chapter has NOTHING to do with a messianic fulfillment, -- as both Scripture and History substantiate.
BibleScribe
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense at all.
However, if you truly want to understand the text, GET OUT OF THE ENGLISH! The English is - at best - confusing. The Hebrew of this passage is much clearer. Also, spend some time getting to understand a Jewish perspective on the passage. If Newton stated such confusion, then I feel sorry for his plight, but these Scriptures were not intended to be mystifying.
Allow me to give you a means for translation:
Dani'el 9:24-27
24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha l’kalei’ hapesha` uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt uwlkhapeer `aavon uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym
v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’ v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:
25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-Maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym:
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible
24 Shaavu`iym = 24 Sevens
shiv`iym = seventy
nechtakh = are-decided
`al- = upon
`amkhaa = your-(singular)-people
v’`al- = and-upon
`iyr = city
qaadshekha = your-(singular)-holy
l’kalei’ = to-finish
hapesha` = the-transgression
uwlhaateem = and-to-make-an-end
chaTaa’owt = [of]-sins
uwlkhapeer = and-to-make-reconciliation-for
`aavon = iniquity
uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-usher-in
tsedeq = righteousness
`olaamiym = of-ages
v’lachtom = and-to-seal-up
chaazown = vision
v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
qodesh = holy
qaadaashiym: = of-holies:
25 V’teeda` = 25 And-know
v’taskeel = and-understand
min-= from
motsaa’ = going-forth
daavaar = [of]-word
l’haashiyv = to-restore
v’livnowt = and-to-build
Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
`ad-= unto
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
naagiyd = Prince
shaavu`iym = sevens
shiv`aah = seven
v’shaavu`iym = and-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
taashuwv = again
v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
rchowv = avenue
v’chaaruwts = and-trench
uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
haa`itiym: = the-times:
26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
hashaavu`iym = the-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
low = not
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-destroy
`am = people
naagiyd = [of]-prince
habaa’ = the-comer
v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
basheTef = in-a-flood
v’`ad = and-until
qeets = end
milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = desolations:
27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-for
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate:
24 Sevens seventy are-decided upon your-(singular)-people and-upon city your-(singular)-holy…
to-finish the-transgression
and-to-make-an-end [of]-sins
and-to-make-reconciliation-for iniquity
and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages
and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy
and-to-anoint holy of-holies:
25 And-know and-understand from going-forth [of]-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince sevens seven and-sevens sixty and-two again and-shall-be-built avenue and-trench and-in-distress the-times:
26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-for-himself not and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:
24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint Holy of Holies:
25 So, know and understand from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens and sixty-two sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:
24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the Holy of Holies:
25 So, know and understand: from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens (when an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress) and sixty-two sevens again:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and a people [of] a prince the comer shall destroy the city and the Holy [place] and the end of it in a flood and until end [of] war are decided desolations:
27 And he (Messiah) shall strengthen a covenant to many [for] one seven and in [the] middle [of] the seven he shall cause to end sacrifice and meal offering and for a spreading out like a wing [of] abominations he shall make [them] desolate and until [the] completion, that decided shall be poured upon [the] desolate:
Verse 27 has fulfillment in two passages of Scripture within the B'rit Chadashah (the NT): Hebrews 10:1-22 and Matthew 23:37-39:
Heb. 10:1-22
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV
Matt. 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
Ps. 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
KJV
The Hebrew of the phrase in Psalm 118:26 is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH." It means "Welcome, the Comer in Name of YHVH" or "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHVH."
Yeshua` the Messiah not only put a stop to sacrifice and meal offering as the FINAL SACRIFICE, but HE is the One who put the gap between His first and second comings! HE'S the One who left the house of Isra'el DESOLATE until the completion! Because they spread out their abominations of rejecting Him as the Messiah of God, He left them DESOLATE - EMPTY! It won't be restored until the JEWS can welcome Him back as the One who comes in the authority of YHVH! Furthermore, according to Psalm 118:26b, they must welcome Him "out of the house of the Lord" or "from the Temple" in order to fulfill that prophecy.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
I see two problems in your estimation: First and foremost, get out of the habit of thinking that everything Yeshua` said had to be symbolic and metaphors! I am reminded of the following quote:
Unless the text demands that a passage be taken symbolically, assume it is literal FIRST! I see nothing in Matthew 24 or Mark 13 or Luke 21 that demand anything to be taken as metaphors, except one's own prejudices and expectations on the passages! Don't READ INTO the passages what you expect to see! That's eisegesis. READ to GAIN understanding FROM the passages without prejudice or expectation, as much as is humanly possible, letting the Scriptures speak to YOU! That's exegesis.
Secondly, no prophecy has two fulfillments. If a prophecy comes from God, there will be ONE SPECIFIC fulfillment to verify that the prophecy came from God. Prophecies that are nebulous enough to provide more than one fulfillment are false prophecies by false prophets, such as Jeanne Dixon. Prophecies so nebulous provide a buffer - a cushion - to protect the false prophet by multiple possibilities in their fulfillment, increasing their odds of being perceived as a trustworthy prophet.
While there is such a thing as a double reference, i.e. a passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time, such as Zechariah 9:9-10 (Bible Prophecy For Blockheads by Douglas Connelly, p. 33), or Yeshua`s partial quotation of Isaiah 61:1-3, it is NOT right to assume that a passage in Dani'el could be fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and then again by some "Antichrist" in the future!
If a prophecy doesn't have a concrete fulfillment, how would one know when it was fulfilled?! That position makes no sense at all.
I'm not going to bother with all your "metaphors" because I don't believe they are metaphors at all! Furthermore, it's ludicrous to find the "meaning" of these "metaphors" in some of the Scriptures to which you refer! 2 Sam. 18:24 makes no more sense to "define" the "metaphor" of the rooftop than did 2 Sam. 18:12!
In the Messiah's love anyway,
Roy
I see two problems in your estimation: First and foremost, get out of the habit of thinking that everything Yeshua` said had to be symbolic and metaphors! I am reminded of the following quote:
More can be read at http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/literal.htm.
Unless the text demands that a passage be taken symbolically, assume it is literal FIRST! I see nothing in Matthew 24 or Mark 13 or Luke 21 that demand anything to be taken as metaphors, except one's own prejudices and expectations on the passages! Don't READ INTO the passages what you expect to see! That's eisegesis. READ to GAIN understanding FROM the passages without prejudice or expectation, as much as is humanly possible, letting the Scriptures speak to YOU! That's exegesis.
Secondly, no prophecy has two fulfillments. If a prophecy comes from God, there will be ONE SPECIFIC fulfillment to verify that the prophecy came from God. Prophecies that are nebulous enough to provide more than one fulfillment are false prophecies by false prophets, such as Jeanne Dixon. Prophecies so nebulous provide a buffer - a cushion - to protect the false prophet by multiple possibilities in their fulfillment, increasing their odds of being perceived as a trustworthy prophet.
While there is such a thing as a double reference, i.e. a passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time, such as Zechariah 9:9-10 (Bible Prophecy For Blockheads by Douglas Connelly, p. 33), or Yeshua`s partial quotation of Isaiah 61:1-3, it is NOT right to assume that a passage in Dani'el could be fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and then again by some "Antichrist" in the future!
If a prophecy doesn't have a concrete fulfillment, how would one know when it was fulfilled?! That position makes no sense at all.
I'm not going to bother with all your "metaphors" because I don't believe they are metaphors at all! Furthermore, it's ludicrous to find the "meaning" of these "metaphors" in some of the Scriptures to which you refer! 2 Sam. 18:24 makes no more sense to "define" the "metaphor" of the rooftop than did 2 Sam. 18:12!
In the Messiah's love anyway,
Roy
Hi Retrobyter (Roy),
I think I've passed the "English" source, have assessed the observations of Young, Keil, & Kliefoth (as provided by Walvoord in "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation), have appreciated Newton's observations, and have presented those foundations to you. So once again I will present those observations one at a time, in the order listed:
1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".
Where so many fail to perceive the letter and inference of the inconcise Masculine text, shibiym, they ignorantly/stupidly presume that Author intended the concise Feminine text. However, in the onset of this prophetic passage, Daniel specifies seventy "years". So was Daniel misguided if GOD's intent was seventy "sevens", -- or 490 years -- ?
BibleScribe
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