A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Cristo Rei]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

The Trinitarian interprets "the Lord" here to be one and the same in every verse, referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Paul's readers were being encouraged to serve with sincerity of heart, in fearing God. The non-Trinitarian, however, interprets verses 22-24 to be references to serving God, whereas the phrase in v.24 "Serve Christ the Lord" is a sudden transition to talking about serving the man Jesus Christ.

So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
Hidden In Him

Hello. I hope your doing well...
To be honest... I don't know the answer to your question... Nor do i understand the trinity...
Im ignorant before God and im not shy to admit it...
The biggest thing i don't understand is who Jesus was praying to in the garden before he got arrested...
Himself? Why would you pray to yourself? It makes no sense... Thats just one example where Jesus speaks to God or refers to him as a sperate entity. Then there is scripture that appears to support the claim that Jesus is God. So, i don't know for sure

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello. I hope your doing well...

Well enough, aside from 70 degree temperatures in the dead of winter. I don't like freezing to death, but I don't like sweating around Christmas time either, LoL.

 

[Cristo Rei]

Well enough, aside from 70 degree temperatures in the dead of winter. I don't like freezing to death, but I don't like sweating around Christmas time either, LoL.

Thats the norm down here in Oz Christmas...
From Thursday we're expecting 3 hot days ranging from 90 to 100 Fahrenheit

 

[Taken]

There's no difference between man serving Jesus Christ and man serving God- Jesus is God.

The reason I'm not a trinitarian is that I believe that the Father/Son/Spirit are 1 God via unity rather than via a shared substance as stated in the Trinitarian Creeds (most notably the Athanasian Creed).

I agree.
@Cristo Rei

The Word Trinity, is simply;
TRI - meaning THREE
UNITY - meaning UNITED

God Himself reveals His OWN SELF IS ALWAYS together, Never Divided, Never Separated, Always IN UNITY ONE GOD.

God Himself reveals (for a lack of a better word), what PARTS of God DOES WHAT, to Accomplish His WILL.

God...THINKS what He wants to Create.
God...SPEAKS what He Thinks.
God...POWER effect His Thoughts, His Speech, to manifest.

(And since God created a mankind of thing in his LIKENESS...not rocket science for an individual man, to experience his own, parallel to God...)
One Man -
Thinks, Speaks, Manifests his thoughts and speech.
* I think I will cook....thought
* I say I will cook......speech
* I cook...................manifested

And...once spoken the Family waits for the manifestation.
And...the Family ... tastes...doesn’t like...spits it out....look for something else
OR....the Family ... tastes...likes...eats...enjoys...becomes full

That IS THE PARALLEL...
God THINKS...
God TOLD.....
God MANIFESTED...
Men HEAR...
Men TASTE...
Some men SPIT IT OUT ... look for something else
Some men EAT... enjoys...becomes full.....OF WHAT? FAITH

I do not FAVOR...the teaching VIA the “trinity shield”...which expresses...
WHAT God IS..........AND IS NOT.

I do not believe....ONE religious sect has a patent on the WORD...TRINITY.

God IS ONE GOD....What He calls His thoughts, His words, His power....
IS at His discretions.....
and BTW men do the same thing.

ONE man...
multiple names and titles (mr, king, servant, CEO, Billy, William)
multiple thoughts (IQ, smart, dumb, truth, lie)
multiple words (true, false, speculative),
multiple powers (position, muscles, strength, weak)

ONE mans...
Constant dilemma IS NOT BEING IN UNITY WITHIN HIMSELF “IN THOUGHTS”
...Meaning...
The Carnal MIND thinks one thing.
The HEART often thinks another thing.

Scripture calls it doubled minded, double hearted...

James 1:8
[8] A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

1 Chr 12:33
[33] Of Zebulun, such as went forth to battle, expert in war, with all instruments of war, fifty thousand, which could keep rank: they were not of double heart.

Pss 12:2
[2] They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.


God Offers the ONLY ONE WAY, to resolve a mans natural
Double hearted, Double minded condition.
(By, Through, Of, Christ Jesus)

Men Offer men MULTIPLE pseudo ways, to resolve a mans natural
Double hearted, Double minded conditions.
(Therapy, Drugs, hypnosis, restraint, depravity, etc.)

Yes God IS ONE Triune Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Well enough, aside from 70 degree temperatures in the dead of winter. I don't like freezing to death, but I don't like sweating around Christmas time either, LoL.

That’s when ya turn on the air conditioner down low, put on a festive sweater, turn on festive music, turn the faux flames up in the electric fire place, turn on the twinkle lights, (disconnect from electronics), smell the delights of roast, cookies, bread in the oven....assemble a puzzle with your sweetheart, or let the kids beat you in a game of chutes and ladders. Laugh, eat, enjoy.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That’s when ya turn on the air conditioner down low, put on a festive sweater, turn on festive music, turn the faux flames up in the electric fire place, turn on the twinkle lights, (disconnect from electronics), smell the delights of roast, cookies, bread in the oven....assemble a puzzle with your sweetheart, or let the kids beat you in a game of chutes and ladders. Laugh, eat, enjoy.

I'm not sure if faux flames really say Christmas, LoL. But I appreciate the thought.

Besides, knowing the one I'm married to, she'd still complain about "It's too cold! It's too cold!!"

 

[Taken]

I'm not sure if faux flames really say Christmas, LoL. But I appreciate the thought.

Besides, knowing the one I'm married to, she'd still complain about "It's too cold! It's too cold!!"

That’s what Long Johns, sweater, cute blankets and funny ear muffs are for...


Geeze... for those fortunate couples who are both hot or both cold...
No daily thermostat tag...

Really, do people just get married for love....and not discuss that one really important thingy that will affect their daily compatibility, compromising, AND suffering.....LOL

 

[keithr]

The passage refers to Christ alone.

I'm not sure that I agree with that. The WEB translates Colossians 3:22-24 as:

(22) Servants, obey in all things those who are your masters according to the flesh, not just when they are looking, as men pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
(23) And whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord, and not for men,
(24) knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.​

I think that the first two Lords are referring to God, because our inheritance is from God, and when he is referring to Jesus Paul explicitly uses "Lord Christ". Verse 17 says:

(17) Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him.​

So it says servants should obey their earthly masters, fearing God who sees everything that they do, and that everything they do (whether in service to their masters or otherwise) they should do it as if it was for God, done in Jesus' name, giving thanks to God though Jesus, for it is from God that we will receive our inheritance, because we serve Jesus, who is our head (and we members of the body of Christ).

 

[Wrangler]

But without assenting to Unitarianism, your position is a sound one on this passage. I think the JW position is weaker, as the context makes it a rather unnatural reading, IMO.

I don't know what the JW position is on this verse.

 

[Wrangler]

But you cannot get your head around this. The Angel of the LORD was none other than the pre-incarnate Christ.

I reject, that is I cannot get my head around you making up stuff from whole cloth.

 

[Taken]

Hello. I hope your doing well...
To be honest... I don't know the answer to your question... Nor do i understand the trinity...
Im ignorant before God and im not shy to admit it...
The biggest thing i don't understand is who Jesus was praying to in the garden before he got arrested...
Himself? Why would you pray to yourself? It makes no sense... Thats just one example where Jesus speaks to God or refers to him as a sperate entity. Then there is scripture that appears to support the claim that Jesus is God. So, i don't know for sure

It amounts to having a conversation with yourself.
In Jesus’ case, remember God does have conversation with Himself, and when what God thinks among Himself and shares it will us, we have better knowledge of the Whole of God.
And
In Jesus’ case, Jesus was on Gods Footstool (Earth) in the “likeness” as a man, thus acted like a man. And men saw Him step away from the others, and heard Him pray to God (in Heaven)...and thus we have the account by the testimony of men who were Jesus’ constant witnesses.

Mans first introduction to Gods WHOLENESS ... us, our, our

Gen 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gods own counsel .... in agreement .... us, our, our

Eph 1:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Later man learns ..... Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Later man learns ..... Will, Word, Power

Later man learns.... ONE....Lord God Almighty

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not sure that I agree with that.

Can you imagine how boring the world would be if everyone agreed about everything?

fearing God.

I think @Hidden In Him referenced this is recognizing the CEV is a 'paraphrase' translation.* Point is, it is not wise to only fear one of many things that can negatively alter your future state.

* Not to distract the thread but I prefer thought translations, which are NOT paraphrases. A 'paraphrase translation' is a pejorative misnomer. Literal translations awkwardly translate each word. Thought translations smoothly translate whole sentences and even combine verses in the way we speak today.

because we serve Jesus, who is our head

I'm really glad you mentioned this. I meant to elaborate on hierarchy and kept forgetting to do so.

As I mentioned in my 1st response to the OP, Person A doing things through Person B is very common in Scripture. IMO, our culture is saturated with individualism, where loyalty and submission to hierarchy is held with contempt. Naturally, what the world holds in contempt is likely to be at odds with Divine order and value.

1 Cor 11:3 and 15:23-28 strongly address hierarchy. I serve my boss, who serves the boss of everyone at work. It does not mean that my boss is the boss of everyone (Jesus is not God). It is that my loyalty to the boss of everyone is through my boss. I am loyal to my boss, who in turn, is loyal to his boss, the boss of everyone.

In some companies, it is politically unacceptable to skip a level and even talk to one's boss' boss. Certainly, whenever I have a meaningful conversation with my boss' boss, I make sure I let my boss know to make sure he knows I am loyal, there is no back stabbing and that we are all on the same page. Actually, this happened in September several times.

My boss' boss' 2nd language is English and what he told me several times was at odds with what he told my boss. It took several iterations to make sure we were communicating properly and fully in the context the boss' boss intended. In that case, I served by boss by being a more effective communicator with his boss. However, most of the time I serve my boss directly and communicate mostly with him.

Returning to theology, Jesus is my boss (master or lord) who serves the boss of everyone (the LORD God). This is simple. Sadly, trinitarian doctrine wants to confuse hierarchy - in direct contraction to repeated Scripture verses - to make this conditional supposition; that if Jesus has been given all authority it makes him the one who gave him that authority.

It is for this reason that trinitarians reject the sequence of events and the logic of Jesus not having authority as a prerequisite to him being given authority. What Being lacks all authority? Beings who are not God, which sequentially and logically include Jesus. The fact that Jesus now has all authority is certainly God-like but 1 Cor 11:3 and 15:23-28 confirm the ongoing hierarchy between God, in his unitarian nature, and Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

It amounts to having a conversation with yourself.

Certainly this is a hijacking post.

It is silly that Jesus conceived himself, sent himself, told himself what to say, asked himself to take the cup, only to refuse his request of himself to take the cup from himself. The mental gymnastics trinitarians must do to make sense of all that in their own head shows the human capacity for rationalization.

"This is my son in whom I am well pleased." This was just Jesus having a conversation with himself? Pul-lease.

 

[amadeus]

...
So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Difficult for me to understand precisely your question although I reread the post a couple of extra times.

Your final question, perhaps the one you wanted to emphasize, is what caught my attention and the following words from Jesus came to mind:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matt 22:37-39

How is the first great commandment different than the second? Is it possible for a person to obey one perfectly while disobeying the other?

If Jesus is God, then the first commandment would apply in our treatment of him.
If, on the other hand, Jesus is a man, then the second commandment would apply in our treatment of him.

Paul writes the following verse with regard to how we are to treat other men:

"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself" Phil 2:3

Could not God Himself as well as a man be included in the word, others? Are we not to so esteem God?

Sounds to me like we are to treat men as we are to treat God. Of course, God is first, but how far behind are men in way that we are to treat them? Did not Jesus as a man provide us with the perfect example?

When and if we are perfect as God is perfect, would we not treat a man with the same love and respect with which we treat God even though the man is in second place being an almost undiscernible distance behind Him?

See the example of Jesus:

How did Jesus treat his 12 apostles? Did he treat Judas differently than the other 11? Did he manifest less love for Judas, the one, who was to betray him?

Can we tell by how Jesus treats God or people whether or not Jesus is somehow a part of God rather than a man in the perfect pattern that we are striving to fit? People apparently do it both ways... and our end result?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." I John 3:2-3

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't know what the JW position is on this verse.

I really have no idea why the question is even asked TBH.....???

@Hidden In Him, this passage in the NWT reads....
“22 You slaves, be obedient in everything to those who are your human masters, not only when they are watching, just to please men, but with sincerity of heart, with fear of Jehovah. 23 Whatever you are doing, work at it whole-souled as for Jehovah, and not for men, 24 for you know that it is from Jehovah you will receive the inheritance as a reward. Slave for the Master, Christ.”

This is self explanatory IMO.....what is the contradiction?
If you are waiting for the JW contribution.....not sure what you are waiting for...?

So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

@Wrangler explained it well.....to serve the Master Jesus is to serve the one he served....Jehovah.
Jesus is also a servant. (Acts 4:27) Like an employee serves a CEO, and the CEO serves the interests of the business owner.
To serve the one with authority from their superior, in turn serves the one at the top....the Supreme One. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him, this passage in the NWT reads....
“22 You slaves, be obedient in everything to those who are your human masters, not only when they are watching, just to please men, but with sincerity of heart, with fear of Jehovah. 23 Whatever you are doing, work at it whole-souled as for Jehovah, and not for men, 24 for you know that it is from Jehovah you will receive the inheritance as a reward. Slave for the Master, Christ.”

This is self explanatory IMO.....what is the contradiction?
If you are waiting for the JW contribution.....not sure what you are waiting for...?

The JW translation you just quoted translates the word Greek word κύριος (i.e. "Lord") in two entirely different ways in this passage ("Jehovah" in v.22-23 and "Master" in v.24), which ends up dividing the verses into talking about two different things: Serving God in v.22-23 verses serving Christ in v.24. Hence the question in the OP.

How is the first great commandment different than the second? Is it possible for a person to obey one perfectly while disobeying the other?

Yes, because if Jesus and God are not treated as One and the same then you are in effect dealing with two different "groups" of people as it were: Men and God. It is very easy to treat one well and the other poorly, and visa versa.

Sounds to me like we are to treat men as we are to treat God.

We are supposed to, yes. But this is not that same as saying that we do.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The JW translation you just quoted translates the word Greek word κύριος (i.e. "Lord") in two entirely different ways in this passage ("Jehovah" in v.22-23 and "Master" in v.24), which ends up dividing the verses into talking about two different things: Serving God in v.22-23 verses serving Christ in v.24. Hence the question in the OP.

Here is how we understand the title "Lord".....which is applied to many different people in the scriptures....

"The Greek and Hebrew words rendered “lord” (or such related terms as “sir,” “owner,” “master”) are used with reference to Jehovah God (Eze 3:11), Jesus Christ (Mt 7:21), one of the elders seen by John in vision (Re 7:13, 14), angels (Ge 19:1, 2; Da 12:8), men (1Sa 25:24; Ac 16:16, 19, 30), and false deities (1Co 8:5). Often the designation “lord” denotes one who has ownership or authority and power over persons or things. (Ge 24:9; 42:30; 45:8, 9; 1Ki 16:24; Lu 19:33; Ac 25:26; Eph 6:5) This title was applied by Sarah to her husband (Ge 18:12), by children to their fathers (Ge 31:35; Mt 21:28, 29), and by a younger brother to his older brother (Ge 32:5, 6). It appears as a title of respect addressed to prominent persons, public officials, prophets, and kings. (Ge 23:6; 42:10; Nu 11:28; 2Sa 1:10; 2Ki 8:10-12; Mt 27:63) When used in addressing strangers, “lord,” or “sir,” served as a title of courtesy.—Joh 12:21; 20:15; Ac 16:30."

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002771

Rendered the way the NWT does, makes perfect sense unless you are trying to complicate a pretty straightforward statement....

 

[Taken]

Certainly this is a hijacking post.

It is silly that Jesus conceived himself, sent himself, told himself what to say, asked himself to take the cup, only to refuse his request of himself to take the cup from himself. The mental gymnastics trinitarians must do to make sense of all that in their own head shows the human capacity for rationalization.

"This is my son in whom I am well pleased." This was just Jesus having a conversation with himself? Pul-lease.

Silly, Pul-lease, mental gymnastics.......irrelevant.
You miss the big picture.

Jesus was not talking, praying to God for Jesus’ Benefit!
Jesus was MANS EXAMPLE!

 

[Enoch111]

It is silly that Jesus conceived himself, sent himself, told himself what to say, asked himself to take the cup, only to refuse his request of himself to take the cup from himself.

The silliness arises only for those who reject the Trinity. For genuine Christians it makes perfect sense to know that God the Son -- while on earth -- placed Himself voluntarily under the fully authority of the Father (who is the "Head" of Christ). In turn God the Father handed all power and authority to the Son after His resurrection, and also made Him Judge of all mankind.

And it is by the power of the Holy Spirit -- the third person of the triune Godhead -- that Jesus was supernaturally conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Rendered the way the NWT does, makes perfect sense unless you are trying to complicate a pretty straightforward statement....

No, no. It is much more straight-forward from a Trinitarian perspective, or at least one like Wrangler was giving. The reason is because changing the translation of the word in mid-passage like that creates what is known in scholarship as an unnatural reading.

Let me show the Greek. It is easier to see when read as it was actually written:

Οἱ δοῦλοι, ὑπακούετε κατὰ πάντα τοῖς κατὰ σάρκα κυρίοις, μὴ ἐν ὀφθαλμοδουλίᾳ ὡς ἀνθρωπάρεσκοι, ἀλλ' ἐν ἁπλότητι καρδίας, φοβούμενοι τὸν κύριον. ὃ ἐὰν ποιῆτε, ἐκ ψυχῆς ἐργάζεσθε, ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ καὶ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις, εἰδότες ὅτι ἀπὸ κυρίου ἀπολήμψεσθε τὴν ἀνταπόδοσιν τῆς κληρονομίας. τῷ κυρίῳ Χριστῷ δουλεύετε.

He makes no distinctions here between "Jehovah" and "Master" here in the Greek. Everywhere where you see the word highlighted it is using the same exact Greek word, which means for Paul's readers to read through this passage and there not be any distinctions made by him regarding referencing God in the early verses and Christ in the later, it makes for a very awkward and downright imperceptible change in meaning if the JW interpretation is the correct one.