A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler @XFire @APAK @GEN2REV

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[Kermos]

I merely quoted the words of Jesus. Believe him, or don't. It's your choice.

The veracity of my assertions about you in the last couple of posts in this chain are born out to be true, just look at your response quoted herein.

The Jews thought that Jesus claiming to be God's Son (which he was) made him equal,

The Jews understood that Jesus declaring Jesus to be the Son of God (which Jesus is) makes Jesus equal to God, but the Jews disbelieved Jesus being God (John 5:18).

On the other hand, the Apostle John understood that Jesus declaring Jesus to be the Son of God (which Jesus is) makes Jesus equal to God, and John believed Jesus being God (John 5:18).

See the difference, both the Apostle and the Jews understood Jesus' meaning, yet the Apostle believed in contrast to the Jews unbelief.

equal, as in similar, to God.

In John 5:18, the Apostle used ἴσος (isos - equal - Strong's Greek: 2470) which is defined specifically as equal.

"Similarity" is similar to "equality", but "similarity" is not equal to "equality".

Let's view practical examples.

Same Value Example:

• TRUE: 7 = 7
• TRUE: 7 is similar to 7

Less-than Value Example:

• FALSE: 7 < 7
• TRUE: 0 < 7
• FALSE: 0 is similar to 7

Greater-than Value Example:

• FALSE: 7 > 7
• TRUE: 500 > 7
• FALSE: 500 is similar to 7

Small Value Variation Example:

• TRUE: 7 < 7.5
• FALSE: 7 = 7.5
• TRUE: 7 is similar to 7.5

There is no question, the weight of 500 of a thing is dissimilar the weight of 7 of such things; in other words, the weight of 500 of a thing is greater than the weight of 7 of such things (see Greater-than Value Example).

Now, here is another point where your "equal, as in similar" breaks down", in the "Small Value Variation Example", we find a small degree of variance has a HUGE impact on the logical result.

See that "7 = 7.5" is false (the weight differs), but that "7 is similar to 7.5" is true (the weight is close enough).

"Equal" establishes a rock solid balance (as in scale); in other words, "equal" is specific in comparison to "similar" being general.

They didn't think that it meant that he was God.

That's right, but the Apostle John did think that it meant that Jesus is God because the Apostle writes as matter of fact "He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

Why would they?

You pose a poorly phrased question. Lord Jesus' sayings are in this account, "As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, [began] asking Him [about] the parables. And He was saying to them, 'To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.'" (Mark 4:10-12)

That's not what Jesus claimed - he simply referred to God as his Father (John 5:17). Saying "God is my Father" is completely different from saying "I am God" - Jesus never said that he was God. The Jews believed that God was their Father too - Isaiah 63:16, 64:8 (WEB):

(63:16) For you are our Father, though Abraham doesn’t know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us. You, Yahweh, are our Father.
(64:8) But now, Yahweh, you are our Father. We are the clay, and you our potter. We all are the work of your hand.

You are demonstrably wrong.

Lord Jesus proclaims that He is YHWH God when He says "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36) thus making Himself equal with God and this is certain because John wrote of John's belief that Jesus "not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18). To be equal with God is to be God.

Christians also claim that God is their Father, but that doesn't mean that they are claiming to be God. You might be reading the words but you are not taking notice of what they are saying.

There is a big difference between Jesus' relationship with the Father in Heaven compared to a Christian's relationships with the Father in Heaven. Here is a difference "Mary said to the angel, 'How can this be, since I am a virgin?' The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God'" (Luke 1:34-35).

See, there is no earthly father involved in conception there. That's a big difference between Jesus and a follower of Jesus.

I might be equal to my brother, but that does not mean that I am my brother, so why would if Jesus claimed to be equal with God would you assume that meant he was God? That is just not logical. Apply common sense to your reading of the Bible!

The Bible does not state specifically that brothers are equal, so, again, similar to the above, your comparison of yourself to Jesus does not match Scripture.

Also note Philippians 2:5-8 (WEB):
(5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [to God] to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.

The Apostle Paul declares Jesus is YHWH God with "existing in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6) because to have "the form of God" is to be God.

Paul did not subsequently write "didn’t have equality with God as a thing to be grasped".

No, no, no, but that is what your heart thinks.

Paul did subsequently write "didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Philippians 2:6).

For Jesus, equality with God "is", that is, a state of being, so He "didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Philippians 2:6).

Let's again look at Paul's writing "didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Philippians 2:6), but this time in relation to you. You do not grasp the meaning of "equality with God".

Paul can refer to Jesus in Jesus' capacity of truly Man (Luke 1:26-33), and Paul can refer to Jesus in Jesus' capacity of truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31); moreover, Paul does this in Philippians 2:5-8.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[tigger 2]

isos does not mean “absolute equality of nature” - cf. Matt. 20:12; Luke 20:36).

Even the noted trinitarian authority The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology admits that ison (and its related forms)

“indicates more strongly an external, objectively measurable and established likeness and correspondence” - p. 497, vol. 2.

A careful study of the NT uses of this word not only shows that it means an external likeness but that it may even be limited to a likeness of only one aspect of the original [MINOR 8 - “John 5:18 (‘Equal’: Ison)”].

Isos (isa, neut.) “ἴσος ... prob. from 1492 [eido] (through the idea of seeming); similar (in amount or kind)” - Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

So when one thing is described as isa [ison] with another thing, they are still two separate different things. One is merely like or similar to another in a certain aspect.

The trinitarian The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, vol. 2, p. 968, discussing isos, reveals:

“In Mt 20:12, ‘made them equal’ means ‘put them upon the same footing,’ i.e. regarded their brief service as though it were the very same as our long hours of toil. In Lk 20:36 the context restricts the equality to a particular relation.” - Eerdmans Publ., 1984 reprint.

In other words, ison at Matt. 20:12 makes the workers measurably “equal” to one another in only one external aspect: the amount of money they were to receive. They were really very unequal otherwise. Also in Luke 20:36, as the trinitarian reference quoted above tells us, those resurrected humans and God’s angels are not necessarily considered equal in essence in this scripture but in only one particular relation: they will not die again. (See Living Bible.)

And we see the same thing in the OT Septuagint:

“so thy quarrel and enmity shall not depart, but shall be to thee like [isos] death.” - Prov. 25:10, Septuagint Version, Zondervan Publ., 1970, p. 813.

“Quarrel” and “enmity” certainly are not absolutely equal to death (in spite of the fact that some could render this “shall be equal [isos] to death”)! The similarity of the single quality of permanence is the only thing being equated here. The “quarreling” and “enmity” are a never-ending condition, like death itself.

Furthermore, the fact that isa is neuter in this verse in Philippians 2:6 means that Paul is not saying that Jesus is perfectly equal to God himself. You see, the word ‘God’ here is the masculine form of the word, and for the word ‘equal’ (whatever its intended meaning) to be applied wholly to the word ‘God’ itself it must be of the same gender (masculine in this case - isos).

Therefore, even if isa could mean absolute equality, only some thing (or things) about God are being considered - not God as a whole. Therefore, Jesus is refusing to seize some thing or things (authority, power, immortality, ...?) that are similar to God’s.

That is why 4th century trinitarians were forced to use a non-Biblical word instead of isos in an attempt to provide just such a meaning for their trinitarian creeds (see MINOR 8-9).

So if we translated this passage with the actual, full meaning of the word ison, the literal NT Greek - (“not taking by force [harpagmos] considered [hegeomai] the to be ‘equal’ [isa] with god [theo]”) - would be rendered: “did not even consider forcefully trying to become like God (even in any single aspect).”

 

[tigger 2]

"God is the potter, we are the clay"

Is. 64:8 - But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. -ASV.

 

[keithr]

On the other hand, the Apostle John understood that Jesus declaring Jesus to be the Son of God (which Jesus is) makes Jesus equal to God, and John believed Jesus being God (John 5:18).

John did not believe that Jesus was God. He clearly states, John 20:31 (WEB):

(31) but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.​

Being a son of God does not make you God. Even Satan was a son of God (Job 1:6).

What was Jesus's reply to the Jews? John 5:18-47 (WEB):

(18) For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
(19) Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(20) For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does. He will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
(21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.
(22) For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son,
(23) that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.
(24) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.
(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
(27) He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
(29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
(30) I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don’t seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
(31) “If I testify about myself, my witness is not valid.
(32) It is another who testifies about me. I know that the testimony which he testifies about me is true.
(33) You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth.
(34) But the testimony which I receive is not from man. However, I say these things that you may be saved.
(35) He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
(36) But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John, for the works which the Father gave me to accomplish, the very works that I do, testify about me, that the Father has sent me.
(37) The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form.
(38) You don’t have his word living in you; because you don’t believe him whom he sent.
(39) “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.
(40) Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.
(41) I don’t receive glory from men.
(42) But I know you, that you don’t have God’s love in yourselves.
(43) I have come in my Father’s name, and you don’t receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
(44) How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don’t seek the glory that comes from the only God?
(45) “Don’t think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you, even Moses, on whom you have set your hope.
(46) For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me.
(47) But if you don’t believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”​

 

[tigger 2]

John 5:18

Here is how John 5:18 appears in its entirety:

“For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal [ison] with God.” - NIV.

You see, Jesus had just healed a man on the Sabbath (John 5:8, 9). Now the Jews had, by the accumulation of their man-made traditions, added hundreds of restrictions to their God-given Sabbath Law. Jesus frequently pointed out how terrible many of their traditions were in God’s eyes and how they actually violated his word. At Matt. 15:6-9, for example, he said:

“you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’” - NIV.

The Law of Moses was still in effect for all Jews (including Jesus, of course). Jesus, being the only perfect man, had to perfectly follow God’s Law, including the Sabbath law, all his earthly life as a man.

So, the only real question concerning the Sabbath laws would have to be: what was really in accord with God’s Sabbath requirements, and what were really the improper traditions of men concerning the Sabbath?

Jesus cleared up the problem of healing on the Sabbath: “it is lawful [in accord with God’s intended requirements for the Sabbath] to do good on the Sabbath.’” Then he healed a man on the Sabbath. - Matt. 12:10-13.

It is clear, then, that healing on the Sabbath was actually lawful in God’s eyes but unlawful in the eyes of the Jewish authorities only!

Obviously the Apostle John knew that Jesus had healed lawfully on the Sabbath. He knew that Jesus would never break the Sabbath as lawfully established by God. Only Jesus’ Jewish opponents believed Jesus was breaking the Sabbath!

Therefore, John could not possibly be saying, as some trinitarians insist, that Jesus was “breaking the sabbath” (John 5:18). Obviously, instead, this is what Jesus’ Jewish opponents were saying (or thinking).

Therefore, it must be the Jews who are saying at John 5:18 “not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal [ison] with God.” - NIV.

Furthermore, it is obvious that John would never distort God’s word by saying that if anyone calls God his Father, he is necessarily claiming to be equal with God! - John 8:41; Matt. 23:9; John 20:17; Is. 64:8; Jer. 3:4, 19; Luke 3:38; Ro. 8:14, 15; Gen. 6:2; Job 38:7. - It must have been the words of those who by their traditions “nullify the word of God.”

If it truly were John who, when writing this account long after Jesus’ death, inserted such a false accusation of his own, then, in answer to above, the following respected trinitarian scholars and translators would not have Jesus answering that ‘future’ (John’s Gospel was written over 50 years after Jesus’ death) inserted comment of John’s by speaking immediately to those Jews:

John 5:19:

"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them [the Jews of Jn 5:18]...." - NASB.

"So Jesus said to them, .... " - English Standard Version.

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them,..." - King James Version

"Jesus therefore answered and said unto them...." - ASV.

"Jesus responded to the Jewish leaders...." - CEB.

“Jesus answered and said to them, ...." - NAB. .

"Answering, then, · Jesus · said to them...." - MOUNCE.

“So Jesus answered them, ...” - Good News Bible.

"So Jesus answered and said to them...." - LEB.

Jesus gave them this answer:.... NIV.

“To this charge Jesus replied, ....” - The New English Bible (and the REB).

“To this accusation Jesus replied: ...” - The Jerusalem Bible.

How well do the above respected trinitarian renderings support Martin’s statement: “... nor is it contextually or grammatically allowable that John is here recording what the Jews said about Jesus, as Jehovah’s Witnesses lamely argue.”? These respected trinitarian translators have said Jesus replied to this accusation. He couldn’t have replied to a comment that John was to make in the distant future; he must have responded to the comment made at the time by the Jews!

The following major trinitarian references contradict Martin and confirm the clear and necessary understanding that this was actually the Jews’ statement or thought (not John’s).

“The Jews taxed [Jesus] with making himself equal with God [at John 5:18].” - p. 499, Vol. 2, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1976, 1986.

“Our Lord’s opponents say that He has ‘called God his own Father [John 5:18].’” - The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 968, Vol. 2, Eerdman’s Publishing, 1956, 1984.

“[John 5] verse 18. Making himself equal with God. This the Jews understood from the preceding verse.” - Adam Clarke’s Commentary, 1826.

After quoting Jesus’ words of John 5:19, 20, Noted trinitarian scholar and translator Dr. William Barclay writes in his popular and respected Daily Study Bible Series:

“This is the beginning of Jesus’s answer to the Jews’ charge that he was making himself equal to God.” - p. 188, Vol. 1, The Gospel of John, Rev. ed., The Daily Study Bible Series, The Westminster Press, 1975.

 

[Kermos]

John did not believe that Jesus was God. He clearly states, John 20:31 (WEB):

(31) but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Being a son of God does not make you God. Even Satan was a son of God (Job 1:6).

What was Jesus's reply to the Jews? John 5:18-47 (WEB):

(18) For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
(19) Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(20) For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does. He will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
(21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.
(22) For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son,
(23) that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.
(24) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.
(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
(27) He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
(29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
(30) I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don’t seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
(31) “If I testify about myself, my witness is not valid.
(32) It is another who testifies about me. I know that the testimony which he testifies about me is true.
(33) You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth.
(34) But the testimony which I receive is not from man. However, I say these things that you may be saved.
(35) He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
(36) But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John, for the works which the Father gave me to accomplish, the very works that I do, testify about me, that the Father has sent me.
(37) The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form.
(38) You don’t have his word living in you; because you don’t believe him whom he sent.
(39) “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.
(40) Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.
(41) I don’t receive glory from men.
(42) But I know you, that you don’t have God’s love in yourselves.
(43) I have come in my Father’s name, and you don’t receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
(44) How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don’t seek the glory that comes from the only God?
(45) “Don’t think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you, even Moses, on whom you have set your hope.
(46) For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me.
(47) But if you don’t believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

The Apostle John most certainly did believe that Jesus was God because the Apostle John wrote "the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle John did not write "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, but not God; and that believing you may have life in His name" as your heart deceives about John 20:31.

Truly, the Apostle John wrote that Jesus is equal with God because being the Son of God (John 20:31) makes Jesus equal with God (John 5:18).

John believes that Jesus is equal with God, Jesus' desire is satisfied, and the Jews lied about equality.

The Apostle John declares John's own belief that Jesus declares that Jesus is equal with God, and John's word is "He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

John believes that Jesus "calling God His own Father" makes Jesus "equal with God" (John 5:18).

APOSTOLIC TESTIMONY IS THAT JESUS IS EQUAL WITH GOD (JOHN 5:18).

In the full passage, Jesus weaves a blessed tapestry in which Jesus reveals Jesus as truly Man and Jesus reveals Jesus as truly God.

Jesus truly Man says "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner" (John 5:19), so Jesus truly Man does things according to the Father.

Jesus truly God says "just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He desires" (John 5:21), so Jesus truly God does things according to Jesus.

JESUS CHRIST'S TEACHING TO CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS IS THAT JESUS IS TRULY MAN AND JESUS IS TRULY ALMIGHTY GOD.

The Jews were aware that Jesus makes Jesus equal with God, yet the Jews did not believe that Jesus is equal with God, so the Jews wanted to kill Jesus (John 5:18).

In the Jews eyes, Jesus lied about Jesus being equal with God, so the Jews thought Jesus blasphemed against God, so the Jews desired to kill Jesus to eliminate Jesus Who lied about being God, in the Jews eyes.

The Jews judge wrongly, but Jesus judges rightly for Jesus says "not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22).

THE JEWS LIED ABOUT JESUS - THE JEWS DISBELIEVED THAT JESUS IS EQUAL WITH GOD.

In the very continuing passage, Jesus exposes the Jews unbelief in Jesus when Jesus says "that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him" (John 5:23), and the Jews desire to kill Jesus makes known the Jews dishonor of the Father.

Moreover, Jesus conveys that Jesus and the Father are the One True God (John 10:30) with Jesus Christ's sayings "that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him" (John 5:23).

Jesus forcefully declares Jesus' equality with God by way of Jesus' sayings "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36), and we believers know Jesus declares this equality because John declares John's knowledge that Jesus "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

Jesus' forcefull declaration of Jesus' equality with God "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36) occurs later in the same passage as "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30).

JESUS CHRIST'S EQUALITY WITH GOD (JOHN 5:18, JOHN 10:30) TRANSLATES TO JESUS BEING THE ONE TRUE GOD (DEUTERONOMY 6:4)!

The Jews think Jesus is not God.

You think Jesus is not God.

You are following the Jews, not Jesus Christ, so you hold to the same disbelief as the Jews recorded in John 5:18.

Jesus tells us who the Jews follow "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

You foolishly follow the devil.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[keithr]

How well do the above respected trinitarian renderings support Martin’s statement:

I like your post, but who was/is Martin?

 

[keithr]

The Apostle John most certainly did believe that Jesus was God because the Apostle John wrote "the Word was God" (John 1:1).

That has been covered earlier in this thread/discussion (see A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians - post #230), so I won't go over that again.

The Apostle John did not write "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, but not God; and that believing you may have life in His name" as your heart deceives about John 20:31.

John also didn't write "Jesus is the Christ, and is God". Why didn't he write that if that is what he believed? Could it be that your assumption is incorrect?

The Apostle John declares John's own belief that Jesus declares that Jesus is equal with God, and John's word is "He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

You should read, and believe, the post that trigger 2 just posted (#1766). Are you too accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath?! If Jesus broke any of God's commandments then he was not a worthy redeeming sacrifice and we are all doomed.

You foolishly follow the devil.

You've also accused me of having a wicked heart.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (WEB):

(3) If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
(4) he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions,
(5) constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.​

2 Timothy 2:23-26 (WEB):

(23) But refuse foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing that they generate strife.
(24) The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient,
(25) in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth,
(26) and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.​

I think I've said enough on this subject. I've quoted the sound words of our Lord Jesus; that should be sufficient.

John 18:37

(37) ... Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”​

John 17:3

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

 

[Kermos]

That has been covered earlier in this thread/discussion (see A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians - post #230), so I won't go over that again.


John also didn't write "Jesus is the Christ, and is God". Why didn't he write that if that is what he believed? Could it be that your assumption is incorrect?

John did write that Jesus is God with "the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle John did not write "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, but not God; and that believing you may have life in His name" as your heart deceives about John 20:31.

Truly, the Apostle John wrote John's matter of fact statement that Jesus is equal with God because being the Son of God (John 20:31) makes Jesus equal with God (John 5:18).

Being equal to God is to be God.

John believes that Jesus "calling God His own Father" makes Jesus "equal with God" (John 5:18).

APOSTOLIC TESTIMONY IS THAT JESUS IS EQUAL WITH GOD (JOHN 5:18).

You should read, and believe, the post that trigger 2 just posted (#1766). Are you too accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath?! If Jesus broke any of God's commandments then he was not a worthy redeeming sacrifice and we are all doomed.

"The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8) says Lord Jesus.

@tigger 2 should have included me either by tagging or quoting, and I do not believe deceiving spirits such as you two.

You've also accused me of having a wicked heart.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (WEB):
(3) If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
(4) he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions,
(5) constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.
2 Timothy 2:23-26 (WEB):
(23) But refuse foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing that they generate strife.
(24) The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient,
(25) in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth,
(26) and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.

I think I've said enough on this subject. I've quoted the sound words of our Lord Jesus; that should be sufficient.

John 18:37
(37) ... Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”
John 17:3
(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

You have said enough to show your denial of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[tigger 2]

I like your post, but who was/is Martin?

A well-known "cult"-buster in the fifties - eighties. He particularly hated JW's and made most of his money attacking them. His books are still popular but still highly inaccurate. One of my studies answered many of his accusations. In fact, my very first study (1974?) investigated his "proofs" (on a cassette) concerning John 1:1c; John 8:58; and Rev. 21:13-16.

 

[keithr]

John did write that Jesus is God with "the Word was God" (John 1:1).

As I said, "I've said enough on this subject". Just repeating over and over what you've already posted is not helpful. It makes me think that you didn't take any notice of some verses I quoted in post #1769:

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (WEB):

(3) If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
(4) he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions,
(5) constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.​

I am withdrawing from discussing this further with you.

 

[Kermos]

As I said, "I've said enough on this subject". Just repeating over and over what you've already posted is not helpful. It makes me think that you didn't take any notice of some verses I quoted in post #1769:

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (WEB):
(3) If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
(4) he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions,
(5) constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.

I am withdrawing from discussing this further with you.

The following proves your deception.

The Apostle John declared "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18). John's declaration is composed of four clauses.

• CLAUSE A: "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him"
  • John declares a "reason" for the Jews desire to kill Jesus.
  • John does not plainly indicate whether the "reason" is valid or invalid.
• CLAUSE B: "because He not only was breaking the Sabbath"
  • the Jews thought Jesus broke the Sabbath.
  • John knows better than the Jews because John knows that Jesus declares "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8).
• CLAUSE C: "but also was calling God His own Father"
  • Jesus openly declared that Jesus is the Son of God (John 10:36).
  • the Jews heard, and they disbelieved that Jesus is the Son of God, so they wanted to kill Jesus.
  • John heard, and he believed that Jesus is the Son of God, so John followed Jesus.
• CLAUSE D: "making Himself equal with God"
  • John declares a statement of fact, here in Clause D.
  • John does not write "the Jews wrongly thought that Jesus was making Himself equal with God".
  • John proclaims the Godly conclusion to Jesus proclaiming "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36) is Lord Jesus making Himself equal with God.
  • Jesus being equal with God is the same as Jesus being God because there is One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
  • Jesus being God is Apostolic testimony as recorded in John 5:18.

@tigger 2 and @Aunty Jane, since you are prowling around spreading lies and deception about Jesus, this exposes your deception that Jesus is not God.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).